Brutalis Dread, Thoughts?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Coming back to this thread, I honestly have to add as well that I like the Brutalis conceptually as the spiritual successor of my precious Ironclad Dreadnoughts which are no longer tournament-legal after their shift to Legends.

[AutumnEffect]

I'm really surprised that the Fist option is being considered superior because of the bolters. I've honestly never played a game with space marines and had the thought "Gee, I wish I had more strength 4 shooting."

And if I did I don't think I'd be reaching for just four more shots.

 

Tarpitting the Brutalis with chaff in melee is a legitimate strategy if it has Fists. On average those are only going to kill 3-4 Termagaunts a turn. With the Sweep profile you're almost doubling that to 6-7 dead which will let you chew your way out quicker.

The claws are superior in that it gives it another option in it's toolbox. It gives you a response to anything with one wound that decides to charge it into melee. Against anything with one wound, regardless of their toughness, the claw's Sweep is the superior attack.

Edited November 13, 2023 by AutumnEffect

[Karhedron]

4 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

Tarpitting the Brutalis with chaff in melee is a legitimate strategy if it has Fists. On average those are only going to kill 3-4 Termagaunts a turn. With the Sweep profile you're almost doubling that to 6-7 dead which will let you chew your way out quicker.

 

The key thing is that Dreadnoughts can use the "Big Guns Never Tire" rule to shoot their opponents in melee so those bolt rifles work in close combat too. However the claws cannot be used at range.

 

In melee against chaff, the Brutalis gets 6xS12 attacks + 4xS4 attacks with Fists or 10xS7 attacks with Claws. This is pretty close but the Fist Brutalis gets more shooting,

 

Anyway, for the sake of 4xS4 attacks, I think the 2 loadouts are pretty close to each other. I built mine when it came out at the end of 9th where the claws were superior. If I were building it again today, I would probably be looking at Fists but the difference is so small that I am not worried about running my version with Claws.

[AutumnEffect]

45 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

The key thing is that Dreadnoughts can use the "Big Guns Never Tire" rule to shoot their opponents in melee so those bolt rifles work in close combat too. However the claws cannot be used at range.

 

In melee against chaff, the Brutalis gets 6xS12 attacks + 4xS4 attacks with Fists or 10xS7 attacks with Claws. This is pretty close but the Fist Brutalis gets more shooting,

 

This is true, though the bolters will only account for an additional 1-2 wounds on a termagant (1.48) in melee. Which still leaves the claws the superior option in melee against chaff (especially once you start needing to wound on 5's against things like Orks, even with the bolters being [Twin Linked].)

The two loadouts are very close, to the point I don't disparage the fist option. But I do think the claws are still the superior choice for giving you a better melee response on your melee dreadnought.

Edited November 13, 2023 by AutumnEffect

[Dracos]

Personally I think it needs to comedown what do you plan to target with the Brutalis?

 

Always play your game plan not your opponents. If I spend that many points on something it’s going to have a definitive target type. 

[Rhavien]

Fact is that I want one. Is there a chance to magnetize it somehow? I assume you would need to magnetize every single claw/finger as they share the same palm? How about the multi melta and HBs? 

[Cleon]

15 minutes ago, Rhavien said:

Fact is that I want one. Is there a chance to magnetize it somehow? I assume you would need to magnetize every single claw/finger as they share the same palm? How about the multi melta and HBs? 

I think you'd realistically need to create/aquire an alternate hand plate and swap them at that level, although I'd be tempted to just stick with the talon fingers, but magnetise the power servo or bolters plate.

[Orange Knight]

On 11/13/2023 at 12:44 PM, AutumnEffect said:

This is true, though the bolters will only account for an additional 1-2 wounds on a termagant (1.48) in melee. Which still leaves the claws the superior option in melee against chaff (especially once you start needing to wound on 5's against things like Orks, even with the bolters being [Twin Linked].)

The two loadouts are very close, to the point I don't disparage the fist option. But I do think the claws are still the superior choice for giving you a better melee response on your melee dreadnought.

 

Here's the thing.

 

You don't WANT to send this Dreadnought into chaff. There are so many units that can deal with that, why would you waste such a great platform that can rip apart high toughness targets?

 

Perhaps you don't have a choice, and perhaps the chaff comes to you. Remember that this unit does not exist in a vacuum when you run it on the tabletop.

 

More often than not, a depleted chaff unit might be in the way of a more appealing target. I'd prefer to have a few extra shots to clear them out before we get to Assaults. If course all these situations are anecdotal. 

 

 

[happyslugger]

2 hours ago, Rhavien said:

Fact is that I want one. Is there a chance to magnetize it somehow? I assume you would need to magnetize every single claw/finger as they share the same palm? How about the multi melta and HBs? 

You can pick up bits from eBay for about £5 so could make a set of talons and then a fist version.  Chest mounted guns I'm not sure about as they are covered by the body / armour somewhat 

[Paladin777]

8 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Here's the thing.

 

You don't WANT to send this Dreadnought into chaff. There are so many units that can deal with that, why would you waste such a great platform that can rip apart high toughness targets?

 

Perhaps you don't have a choice, and perhaps the chaff comes to you. Remember that this unit does not exist in a vacuum when you run it on the tabletop.

 

More often than not, a depleted chaff unit might be in the way of a more appealing target. I'd prefer to have a few extra shots to clear them out before we get to Assaults. If course all these situations are anecdotal. 

 

 

This right here is probably one of the best argument in favor of the fists, and I was actually already leaning that way anyway. 
 

I honestly prefer fists on dreadnaughts as compared to claws. 

[AutumnEffect]

16 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Here's the thing.

 

You don't WANT to send this Dreadnought into chaff. There are so many units that can deal with that, why would you waste such a great platform that can rip apart high toughness targets?

 

Perhaps you don't have a choice, and perhaps the chaff comes to you. Remember that this unit does not exist in a vacuum when you run it on the tabletop.

 

More often than not, a depleted chaff unit might be in the way of a more appealing target. I'd prefer to have a few extra shots to clear them out before we get to Assaults. If course all these situations are anecdotal. 

 

 

 

Yes, you do not want to send it into chaff.

My argument, as I said in my first post, is that if it's armed with fists your opponent will charge their chaff into you because killing just 3 termagant-equivalent models will waste it's points.

Claws Sweep will double your perspective wound output.

The way the math works out, having the Claws is just the flat out superior option if there's the possibility of the Dread getting into melee with single wound models. 

The bolters will kill 1.98 termagants in shooting (1.48 in melee) so it'd have to be quite the depleted screening unit indeed for them to make a difference. 

3 minutes ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by AutumnEffect

[Helias_Tancred]

Talons/Claws + multi-meltas ... and run 2. 

 

Trust me. ;)

 

[Karhedron]

On 11/14/2023 at 11:58 AM, Rhavien said:

How about the multi melta and HBs? 

 

The MMs and HBs just sort of push into the swivel mounts on the belly. I haven't tried myself but you could probably magnetise those and swap them in and out. I just went with the MMs as they get much higher strength and damage than the HBs and only 1 shot less.

 

[Paladin777]

10 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

Yes, you do not want to send it into chaff.

My argument, as I said in my first post, is that if it's armed with fists your opponent will charge their chaff into you because killing just 3 termagant-equivalent models will waste it's points.

Claws Sweep will double your perspective wound output.

The way the math works out, having the Claws is just the flat out superior option if there's the possibility of the Dread getting into melee with single wound models. 

The bolters will kill 1.98 termagants in shooting (1.48 in melee) so it'd have to be quite the depleted screening unit indeed for them to make a difference. 

 

Bolters plus a round of fist attacks (shooting while outside of combat) kills 5.85 GEQ out of cover (or 5.6 in cover).

 

Claws sweep kills 6.48 GEQ in one round of combat, and gets to use the full claw attacks in both your turn and the opponents turn.

I think I'd personally rather have the bolters to help clear any chaff during the shooting phase in hopes that I can make a charge later in the turn (as well as other tactical reasons), but this is honestly one of the fewer examples of GW actually balancing two different options very well against each other!

 

So I'm gonna give them a pat on the back for there not being a clear winner in this one!

Edited November 15, 2023 by Paladin777

[Orange Knight]

The most important thing is which one you like the look of more, let's be honest!

[Rhavien]

On 11/15/2023 at 1:45 PM, Karhedron said:

 

The MMs and HBs just sort of push into the swivel mounts on the belly. I haven't tried myself but you could probably magnetise those and swap them in and out. I just went with the MMs as they get much higher strength and damage than the HBs and only 1 shot less.

 

Thanks a lot! Doesn't look too complicated. Otoh I think I made my mind up to not worry about a future return of points for equipment. If the heavy Bolter won't get a big boost in power the melta will stay mostly superior I guess. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Rhavien

[Helias_Tancred]

The Redemptor is still a better choice in most situations.

 

[Tacitus]

On 11/14/2023 at 5:49 AM, Orange Knight said:

 

Here's the thing.

 

You don't WANT to send this Dreadnought into chaff. There are so many units that can deal with that, why would you waste such a great platform that can rip apart high toughness targets?

 

Perhaps you don't have a choice, and perhaps the chaff comes to you. Remember that this unit does not exist in a vacuum when you run it on the tabletop.

 

More often than not, a depleted chaff unit might be in the way of a more appealing target. I'd prefer to have a few extra shots to clear them out before we get to Assaults. If course all these situations are anecdotal. 

 

 

Sometimes I do - being able to ginsu chaff is a legit build pattern/choice.  Not every opponent army is going to have a big-bad.  Sometimes its more important to clear the chaff than focus on a big bad when it comes to scoring and such. 

[Dracos]

Yeah but there’s so many more units that are better suited for clearing the chaff. It’s not like we are at a loss for S4 or 5 ranged weapons to clear off hordes of orks or termagants. If your Brutalis is stuck in melee with 20 chumps that’s almost half the game taking out a tar pit. 

[Tacitus]

22 hours ago, Dracos said:

Yeah but there’s so many more units that are better suited for clearing the chaff. It’s not like we are at a loss for S4 or 5 ranged weapons to clear off hordes of orks or termagants. If your Brutalis is stuck in melee with 20 chumps that’s almost half the game taking out a tar pit. 

I'm sensing the problem here - the My Way Is The Right Way, and the ONLY Right Way.  And I will stack all the best case and worst case scenarios I need to to prove it. 

[Dracos]

Dude you be you. I usually hit like or agree with half the ideas you post. This is my second post on this topic and the first didn’t chose one option over the other.  Sounds like you have a problem with criticism of any kind if that’s how you see that comment though. 
 

Back on topic:

Personally I see the Talons and Mult-melt as as the more flexible tactical option and the fist as a homage to my beloved Boxnought of olde.
 

Honestly though it’s a nice model that if you take one you’re better off taking two and designing your build around.  Nothing works in a vacuum. Which goes back to my original statement of “depends on your build”.
 

I  like the model but feel there are better ways to build an army. 

[Tacitus]

On 11/19/2023 at 6:43 AM, Dracos said:

Sounds like you have a problem with criticism of any kind if that’s how you see that comment though. 

On 11/17/2023 at 11:26 PM, Dracos said:

If your Brutalis is stuck in melee with 20 chumps that’s almost half the game taking out a tar pit. 

 

10 attacks, 6.5ish hit, 6ish wound with no save after a -2  that's about a turn and a half, not 2.5 - nor does it include the Fall Back, shoot and Charge for Mortals gimmick that is potentially available to the Brutalis, or the shoot into combat as Big Guns Never Tire.  I pointed out your characterisation of being "tarpitted" by "20 chumps" was very skewed, you complained someone pointed that out.  Of the two of us who dealt with criticism worse? A Brutalis that charges 20 chumps is likely to be free by the beginning of your next turn once you include the mortals and in-fight shooting. 

 

Edit to add:  I'd say the HB Talon lineup is the the most flexible. - Icarus Stubber and Heavy Bolter into the "chumps" then Mortal Charge and Sweep, or Charge for Mortals and Strike anything with high T - anything you want to strike is most likely to shrug off the Multi-Melta at S9 - the niche case for MM/Sweep would be Terminators/Gravis and their equivalents - but even then you likely want to STRIKE for the higher Damage per melee.  Again that's the "flexible" load-out, not one that pays any attention to the rest of your army.  A Bunch of Dreads that are your tank hunters because you've loaded up on Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs in an ersatz Blood Angels style army will care less about flexibility and probably should go MM and Talons while a mobile firebase with a multitude of assorted Dreads - say some sort of Iron Hands with 3 of the Phobos Walkers, 3 Plasma Redemptors and 3 Brutalis running around with an Iron Father and some Techmarines etc - might want to go Fists and HB because that many dreads are unlikely to have a lot of Intercessor level support. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Tacitus

[Paladin777]

For what it's worth, the TL HB's only kill half a gaunt more than the MM's per round of shooting, and they kill about the same number of gaunts if there's cover involved. 
 

For those kind of numbers, I'm gonna stick with the multi-meltas, without question. 
 

that said, TL Multimeltas are nothing to be scoffed at. That reroll to wound makes them more reliable than you'd think against tougher stuff!

[Tacitus]

20 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

For what it's worth, the TL HB's only kill half a gaunt more than the MM's per round of shooting, and they kill about the same number of gaunts if there's cover involved. 
 

For those kind of numbers, I'm gonna stick with the multi-meltas, without question. 
 

that said, TL Multimeltas are nothing to be scoffed at. That reroll to wound makes them more reliable than you'd think against tougher stuff!

But its not as flexible as - that was the criteria - Round After Round double the range, double-ish the shots, still twin linked, Sustained Hits, partnering well with the Icarus partnered with the Talons is probably the most flexible.  Like you I'm not convinced the flexibility is worth the loss of the TLMM for its more focused purpose given the most likely expected use.  

 

When I think of the Brutalis I think of a few expectations:

I expect to use it in melee as often as I can.

I expect it to be able to take on both Tanks/Knights (not necessarily solo) and infantry

 

To me that means Talons for dual profile, the HB/MM is something of a wash, but I'm leaning HB for the overlapping Icarus profile.

[Karhedron]

Given that units can split fire from different weapons systems I would say that the profile overlap with the Icarus becomes rather moot. There were editions where you didn't want to mix weapons of very different profiles on a single unit but that is not an issue in 10th.