Brutalis Dread, Thoughts?

[Paladin777]

I'll grant you the range on the HB, but I think that you're very much mistaken when you say that the HB is the more versatile loadout as the MM can truly fire at anything and do work (and over the course of the game the MM would only be 2.5 gaunts behind the HB if that's what you decided to shoot both of them at all game!), and the HB is locked to light and medium infantry if it wants to be effective (and the MM is still better against the medium infantry).

Edited November 22, 2023 by Paladin777

[Rhavien]

That's a shame, as I would prefer the look of belly mounted heavy bolters over multimeltas. 

But in the end I guess it's a really good sign that we have now over 50 replies to this topic with advocates for both sides. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

On the HB vs MM topic, I went MM.  Since, as an Iron Hands player, I intend to play Iron Storm 99% of the time, I'll have a reroll handy for the to-hit on the 2-shot MM -- with the higher damage of the gun, that means more than a reroll on a HB.

[Cenobite Terminator]

Isn’t the MM twin linked?

[Paladin777]

6 hours ago, milddead said:

Isn’t the MM twin linked?

Yes, it is. Thats what makes it able to punch up to medium and heavy targets. 

[DemonGSides]

Picked one up today to finish out the triumvirate of dreads. Gonna paint it in Death Company colors for funsies and possibly future proofing, lord willing.

[Dracos]

8 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

Yes, it is. Thats what makes it able to punch up to medium and heavy targets. 

When it first came out I was not a fan of this whole twin-linked game mechanic … and honestly I’m still not. It’s a nerf over just having double the shots and I feel the combos you have to come up with to make things work is real gatekeeping for newer players. It’s only the multi-shot weapons like Inceptors Bolters where it makes a difference. If Aggressors had too many shots just reduce the shots from 6 per model to 4. I don’t know. 
 

It works so I’m not all that bothered by it other than it makes it more difficult for newer or casual players who don’t enjoy digging into a codex to find the hidden nuggets. Shrug. 

[Paladin777]

I wouldn't exactly call twin-linked a hidden nugget any more than dev wounds or lethal/sustained hits...

 

I hate to say it, but if someone has a hard time keeping track of a few keywords, then maybe Warhammer isn't the game for them.

[Rhavien]

21 minutes ago, Paladin777 said:

I wouldn't exactly call twin-linked a hidden nugget any more than dev wounds or lethal/sustained hits...

 

I hate to say it, but if someone has a hard time keeping track of a few keywords, then maybe Warhammer isn't the game for them.

Guess how often I forget, that a HB has sustained hits nowadays... I can see where Dracos is coming from. When they changed TL to be just double the shots, I was happy. Reintroducing TL is just a soft nerf to reduce the lethality. Even better, you have weapons that are twin-linked and such that just look like but still have double the shots (Godhammer Lascannon). 

[Paladin777]

And I've forgotten about LH when charging with my VVets plenty, thought that's gotten better with practice.

 

I don't think that's an issue with the game, but an issue with the player. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Paladin777

[DemonGSides]

Nor would I classify forgetting rules as simply overlooking a hidden nugget.  It's just unfamiliarity, which gets better with more games played.

I forgot about my Termie chaplains +1 to wound for an entire 3 rounds.  It would've made a huge difference in the fight, but I forgot.  I don't consider that a problem with the game; that's just me being a space cadet.  I built the list with that in mind!  I just forgot, and the main tool we have is pretty subpar for making this stuff memorable (The App/Codex structure).

Imagine a robust app that could display your "Complete" list with all the buffs they have tied into and highlighted.  That'd be awesome.

[Paladin777]

Yep. 
 

does anyone else remember the ridiculous mass of rules bloat that was 7th? It wasn't pretty. 10th is definitely not that...
 

while I have some beef with quite a few of GW's decisions lately, I actually applaud them about the way the core rules are laid out. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Paladin777

[Dracos]

16 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

I wouldn't exactly call twin-linked a hidden nugget any more than dev wounds or lethal/sustained hits...

 

I hate to say it, but if someone has a hard time keeping track of a few keywords, then maybe Warhammer isn't the game for them.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear. TL isn't a hidden nugget. One needs to dive into and dissect the codex in order to layer TL with the right layers of rule to bring its lethality (no pun intended back up to its previous level. My fault not being clear on that.

[Paladin777]

Warhammer is a complex game that has a significant time and mental bandwidth requirement (between learning the rules and also getting an army ready for the tabletop). In my opinion a certain level of digging for the best options is fitting. 
 

Edit: a certain level of digging for the best option combinations is fitting.
 

I wouldn't want it to only have a surface level of depth. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Paladin777

[Dracos]

 I don’t think that’ll be something we ever have to fear happening. 

[AutumnEffect]

On 11/25/2023 at 5:33 AM, Dracos said:

When it first came out I was not a fan of this whole twin-linked game mechanic … and honestly I’m still not. It’s a nerf over just having double the shots-'

I was pretty surprised as well by the step backwards into making twin-linked 'a thing' again. My thoughts are that it was part of the push the design team had to make this edition less lethal.  

 

I'm pretty ambivalent on the change. I think just having the weapons be separate or double shots ala 9th was more intuitive, but I think the change to granting re-roll wounds is probably healthier to the game. For years twin-linked weapons granted just a re-roll to hit so that's what the models were balanced around. 

[Rhavien]

1 hour ago, AutumnEffect said:

I was pretty surprised as well by the step backwards into making twin-linked 'a thing' again. My thoughts are that it was part of the push the design team had to make this edition less lethal.  

 

I'm pretty ambivalent on the change. I think just having the weapons be separate or double shots ala 9th was more intuitive, but I think the change to granting re-roll wounds is probably healthier to the game. For years twin-linked weapons granted just a re-roll to hit so that's what the models were balanced around. 

Whilst I totally agree, I don't know if there goes much thought into designing the models but much more what the designer thinks looks cool. In the end it doesn't bother me that much. 

What I am curious about is the fact that some weapons kept their double shots while clearly looking twin linked (land raider lascannon) whilst others gained the ability looking like two separate weapon systems (aggressors) 

[Dracos]

8 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

I was pretty surprised as well by the step backwards into making twin-linked 'a thing' again. My thoughts are that it was part of the push the design team had to make this edition less lethal.  

 

I'm pretty ambivalent on the change. I think just having the weapons be separate or double shots ala 9th was more intuitive, but I think the change to granting re-roll wounds is probably healthier to the game. For years twin-linked weapons granted just a re-roll to hit so that's what the models were balanced around. 

I get what you’re saying about reduced lethality but a) Marines aren’t exactly tearing up the Meta. Still haven’t hit 50% I believe but more so …

 

 … they also said there were looking to reduce rerolls to speed the game up in 10e. I’d personally be fine paying an extra point or two to just do away with twin-linked … but nobody asked me  lol 

[AutumnEffect]

23 hours ago, Rhavien said:

Whilst I totally agree, I don't know if there goes much thought into designing the models but much more what the designer thinks looks cool. In the end it doesn't bother me that much. 

Yeah, I was/am struggling a bit to phrase what I mean correctly. Perhaps I should say 'that's sort of what the game was balanced around' rather than the models. 

 

 

23 hours ago, Rhavien said:

What I am curious about is the fact that some weapons kept their double shots while clearly looking twin linked (land raider lascannon) whilst others gained the ability looking like two separate weapon systems (aggressors) 

It's purely about game balance now rather than what's represented on the model. The land raider needs the double output to be competitive. The aggressors are too good with double output. Simple as.

 

 

15 hours ago, Dracos said:

I get what you’re saying about reduced lethality but a) Marines aren’t exactly tearing up the Meta. Still haven’t hit 50% I believe but more so …

The change to twin-linked didn't just affect Marines though.  Off the cuff and as an example, It's also been a nerf to Eldar twin ShruiCats on their bikes and vehicles.

We're already a bit in the weeds as far as the thread topic goes so I won't touch anything about the Meta. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by AutumnEffect

[Dracos]

True enough and I will say that in melee twin linked is definitely better than just one additional attack. 

[Tacitus]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:23 PM, Paladin777 said:

I'll grant you the range on the HB, but I think that you're very much mistaken when you say that the HB is the more versatile loadout as the MM can truly fire at anything and do work (and over the course of the game the MM would only be 2.5 gaunts behind the HB if that's what you decided to shoot both of them at all game!), and the HB is locked to light and medium infantry if it wants to be effective (and the MM is still better against the medium infantry).

I'm not picking each option in a vaccuum, but overall - The High T targets get served by the Talons, the Low T stuff you can plink at range with the HB and Stubber.  If you do it in the Stormlance (which is what I'd use with a Dread focused force, you can advance and charge, you can shoot with a Strat (which gives Assault).   But with any of the non-Ballistus Dreads (which I don't love bang-for-buck wise) - I want them punching something as often as possible, and being able to charge up to 2D6 + 8 inchest on up to 6 Dreads, and 3 Warsuits with just your formation bonus feels pretty beefy. 

[Paladin777]

On 11/29/2023 at 10:13 AM, Dracos said:

True enough and I will say that in melee twin linked is definitely better than just one additional attack. 

Depends on how many attacks you start with and what you need to roll to wound. 
 

In the case of the Brutalis I think the TL is better for its melee unless using the strike profile and wounding on 2+, in which case the two scenarios are even. 
 

it's a little more split on the ranged weapons. I'd rather have an extra melts shot most of the time over reroll wounds, but the other weapons are probably better being TL. 
 

General rule of thumb with the to-wound rolls is that the harder it is to wound, the better TL gets. 
 

General rule of thumb with number of attack is that the less attacks you have base, the more meaningful that extra becomes. 
 

the Brutalis has a fair few attacks, and wants to be punching tough targets, so yeah. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Paladin777

[Paladin777]

On 12/1/2023 at 5:11 AM, Tacitus said:

I'm not picking each option in a vaccuum, but overall - The High T targets get served by the Talons, the Low T stuff you can plink at range with the HB and Stubber.  If you do it in the Stormlance (which is what I'd use with a Dread focused force, you can advance and charge, you can shoot with a Strat (which gives Assault).   But with any of the non-Ballistus Dreads (which I don't love bang-for-buck wise) - I want them punching something as often as possible, and being able to charge up to 2D6 + 8 inchest on up to 6 Dreads, and 3 Warsuits with just your formation bonus feels pretty beefy. 

The funny thing is that the sweep attack on the talons is mathematically worse than the strike on anything with 2 wounds or more, which makes the talons literally only good against chaff, in and melee only. 
 

not saying that the talons are necessarily worse than the fist+bolters wholesale, but we need to be realistic about what they're actually useful against. To that end, they are only useful against 1w targets and are thus strictly worse against the higher toughness targets (which presumably have more than 1 wound) you're talking about because the bolters are basically free shots that the talons don't get (because the talons are better using strike against said targets). That is, unless you've come up against a bunch of T5-6, 1w models in your travels! XD
 

The other funny thing is that in the Stormlance detachment I don't think I'd be spending the CP to advance to shoot a brutalis! I'd rather give that to a Ballistus that needed the advance to get into firing position. Heck, even a redemptor would make better use of it!

 

This desire to advance with the highly low probability of being able to shoot (even less so when you consider the opportunity cost of spending a CP to allow a brutalis to shoot with your preferred ranged loadout of a single HB and stubber, even if they are TL!) after doing so makes the extra range on the HB irrelevant in your Stormlance army.
 

The way I see it is if you're not in charge range, then you advance and can't shoot. If you are in charge range without advancing, then the MM's in range. And it is accepted to have the better damage profile against the great majority of targets. All this adds up to it still being the better pick the vast majority of the time... and that's in your own scenario!

Edited December 2, 2023 by Paladin777

[Tacitus]

On 11/25/2023 at 5:37 AM, Rhavien said:

Guess how often I forget, that a HB has sustained hits nowadays... I can see where Dracos is coming from. When they changed TL to be just double the shots, I was happy. Reintroducing TL is just a soft nerf to reduce the lethality. Even better, you have weapons that are twin-linked and such that just look like but still have double the shots (Godhammer Lascannon). 

That's part of the problem - though there seems to be a method to the madness somewhere around S8/S9 areas.   But other places like the Reaper and such Meh.  The whole reason to get a Reaper is for the absolutely jaw dropped dakka.   It ended up being a stealth nerf to a lot of things that didn't need it. 

[Paladin777]

What do you mean by Reaper? I can think of at least 3 different weapons with Reaper in their name.