Pronoun question

[EverythingIsGreat]

Good day,

 

Just finished a recent Indomitus Crusade-related novel by a new (to me) author. I may post a full review at some time. My question involves the use of gender pronouns. One character is referred to by the author as "they". None of the other characters that interact with "they" address them as such, in-story they only use the character's IG rank ("captain").

 

Another, major character is revealed, about 3/4 in the novel, to be in a 2-dad household. He and his husband have two kids. This again is described by the author, none of the other characters seem to know (or care) about his domestic situation.

 

Neither of the gender choices have any bearing on the story, or in the characters' actions. They are akin to casually throwing something like "Oll Persson being a perpetual is ancient" which is I guess pointing out the likely obvious, and then stating "he was an actual Argonaut of myth", which doesn't really add anything except *cuteness* imo.

 

Is this (the gender pronoun use described) something new? Has it appeared in other BL stories? Is it a trendlet? Is the 420th century closely following the 20th?

 

Everything is great!
 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Before the inevitable shuttering, I will just mention that yes, I also noticed that while reading Ashes of Cadia and in both cases it seemed completely pointless, wildly out of left field, and simply a case of the author checking boxes for a story they wrote in the present day.

 

Threadlock in 3, 2, ...

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Lord Nord

[EverythingIsGreat]

Cool thanks. But why lock it? If the novel is reviewed, this detail is novel enough to be included.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

You'd think so, wouldn't you? But certain topics seem to be haram on this forum.

[Roomsky]

Humans are a diverse lot, and the Imperium is a big place. It's also impossibly egalitarian in fiction already; it fits the age old trend of "we don't care about your personal choices beyond your faith, your tithes, and your ability to hold a gun."

 

Edit: They/them is the default singular non-binary pronoun, for individuals who don't wish be seen as a man or a woman. It's becoming more commonly used in regards to tech priests in BL due to their "flesh is weak" creed.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Roomsky

[Kelborn]

Mike Brooks added some gender neutral pronouns in his work. Brutal Kunnin' for example had a Admech member who was referred to as "them" or his Alpharius novel had a lesbian couple. 

 

It's not a huge thing and more treated like everyday stuff which is totally fine, imho.

 

The thread will not be locked. Why should it? As long as everyone keeps it civil and it doesn't devolve into a mess it'll be treated like any other topic.

[SvenIronhand]

2 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Neither of the gender choices have any bearing on the story, or in the characters' actions. They are akin to casually throwing something like "Oll Persson being a perpetual is ancient" which is I guess pointing out the likely obvious, and then stating "he was an actual Argonaut of myth", which doesn't really add anything except *cuteness* imo.

 

The question, for me, is "why does it matter to you?". Non-binary people's identities don't have to be some big thing.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

In Gav Thorpe's 'Imperator' one of the Mechanicus Adepts uses genderless pronouns, (Ve? Vem? I don't actually know how the words were spelt as I listened to the audiobook a while ago.) Vey saw vemselves as being outside of gender, which for someone who's part machine and doesn't reproduce biologically made sense to me, and after a while I stopped noticing it. 

 

I appreciate these inclusive characters whenever they're used, and the fact that it usually has no bearing on the plot is the point. In 40k these sorts of things are normal, and that's, in my view a positive thing. 

 

In the 41st millennium, no one cares if you're gay for instance, as long as you're not a heretic.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Sword Brother Adelard

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

Twice-Dead King has a few instances of this, also, and handles it both tastefully and in a way that does add to the story.

 

Borakka, a destroyer lord, before biotransference was what was called a Red Marshal, and during memories of the flesh-times, is referred to with they/them. After biotransference, Borakka switches to being referred to as it/its, and the author is fairly consistent with this across both books in the duology. And, of course, there’s Anathrosis, the Ogdobekh Phaeron who was their patriarch, but then changed that to Matriarch following biotransference. 
 

40k fiction has been incorporating LGBTQ+ characters as part of the BL body of work for a while now—the example I always use is Magot and Grifen from the Ciaphas Cain novels, a lesbian couple, and the only time it materially comes up is when another commissar implies that the only reason he won’t discipline one of them is that he’s sleeping with them—which Cain idly notes in his memoirs would be a neat trick, given that her preferences swung the other way. 
 

 EverythingIsGreat, to answer your question, from my perspective I don’t think its just a ‘trend’ that BL is incorporating—just a part of the human condition that they’re including. 

[DarkChaplain]

In King of Pigs, the Warhammer Horror short story, the protagonist is in a relationship with another man and they adopted a daughter.

This is something that has been a thing for years. Characters just happen to love who they love, if they even get to love anyone in a 40k story. It's used to characterize them, just like has happened with whatever human bonds characters in fiction were having for decades. It's nothing to feel upset or irritated about, imo. The setting has been egalitarian for as long as it's been around, with female guards"men" a thing, race/ethnicity not mattering, at best it'd tie into regimental pride, and it never mattered in the underhive, at the factory line, in the administratum level or wherever. The only barriers are with Astartes/Custodes being entirely male and sisters of silence and of battle being women only. Everything else has been pretty much fair game, the range of features a character may draw from simply expanded a little. And it's not like we haven't had nobility engaging in affairs with other men in years past, anyhow.

 

It's just a normal thing that happens. It's part of who these people are, and that's all there is to the matter. Nobody in the Dark Millennium really cares about the modern era of culture wars.

 

Lastly, in recent years, as this has become a more common choice in stories, it's never felt as intrusive or distracting as something like the 2016-18 era Star Wars novels, particular Chuck Wendig's Aftermath trilogy, which was exceedingly preachy ("I'm an ex imperial torturer, but the only reason these rebels mistrust and dislike me is because I'm gay!", except it wasn't, and he was told off about it too). Or some of the novellas I received from Tor back then, which were at times openly hostile to straight/male characters (I'll never get over that hippo western....).

Nothing I've read from Black Library has been so hamfisted or out of place that I wanted to toss the book/ereader against the wall, so I'm entirely cool with it.

[EverythingIsGreat]

1 hour ago, SvenIronhand said:

The question, for me, is "why does it matter to you?". Non-binary people's identities don't have to be some big thing.

 

I invite you to read my post more carefully. The reason I posted this is because the pronouns used for the characters are irrelevant to the story or character actions. And also it is the first story I encountered this. Other than that, I treat this like any other of the many non-sequiturs in Warhammer stories.

 

2 hours ago, Roomsky said:

Humans are a diverse lot, and the Imperium is a big place. It's also impossibly egalitarian in fiction already; it fits the age old trend of "we don't care about your personal choices beyond your faith, your tithes, and your ability to hold a gun."

 

Edit: They/them is the default singular non-binary pronoun, for individuals who don't wish be seen as a man or a woman. It's becoming more commonly used in regards to tech priests in BL due to their "flesh is weak" creed.

 

I don't think this is directly comparable. In the stories I have read the AdMech characters referred to as "they" were either amalgams, or thay had multiple personalities loaded. "They" in those cases did not refer to gender or sex.

Edited November 11, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
missing word

[Bryan Blaire]

19 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

I invite you to read my post more carefully. The reason I posted this is because the pronouns used for the characters are irrelevant to the story or character actions. And also it is the first story I encountered this. Other than that, I treat this like any other of the many non-sequiturs in Warhammer stories.

Reading your post carefully, I will echo Sven’s initial question - “Why does it matter to you?”  I will also follow that up with “that you felt the need to come and post about it?”

 

Like you said, it is irrelevant to the story, so why does it matter?  All of the characters could be referred to as “they/ them” and it wouldn’t change the story, so again, “Why does it matter that it was written this way to you?”  Can’t we just enjoy the story without even worrying about it in the first place?

[grailkeeper]

There's also a bit about pronouns in the Gazkhull book. I suppose aliens could have completely different concepts of gender and Mechanicus could feel themselves ascended above such baseline human concerns. That being said, I don't feel many books are improved by adding these issues. It feels to me a bit forced, like it's being added because it's fashionable to add it. Maybe not my most enlightened opinion. 

 

In terms of sexuality and gender expression within the Imperium I have two conflicting schools of thought. One the Imperium is uncaring and pragmatic. It'll just put boots on the line to get things done and not care about who fills them. As someone once said when asked about homosexuals in the military " You just need to shoot straight, not be straight".

[Brother Tyler]

4 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Is this (the gender pronoun use described) something new? Has it appeared in other BL stories? Is it a trendlet? Is the 420th century closely following the 20th?

 

In general, any creation will be a product of the time in which it is created [unless it is deliberately created to reflect an earlier period]. Earlier Black Library fiction didn't feature these usages in a noticeable manner largely because these issues weren't as widespread or as accepted in the real world as they are now. Since issues of gender identity have achieved a level of visibility in modern society, it is only natural to expect them to be more widely reflected in the creations of our time. As socio-cultural mores change and evolve, the practices that affect artistic creation will similarly change and evolve (i.e., whether this is a temporary trend or permanent will largely depend upon socio-cultural factors). The 41st Millennium is closely following the 21st Century because the 41st Millennium (i.e., the Warhammer 40,000 setting) is a product of people living in the 21st Century.

 

Whether this is good or bad is up to the individual to decide.

 

As for why this topic might be closed, one potential reason has already reared its head herein - attacking/questioning other people's views on the issue, whether they are for or against. Another potential reason would be discussing the real world politics of the issue - something that would inevitably escalate. None of that is necessary for, indeed it would be antithetical to, constructive discussion that helps members to better understand and enjoy the hobby.

[NovemberIX]

4 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

In Gav Thorpe's 'Imperator' one of the Mechanicus Adepts uses genderless pronouns, (Ve? Vem? I don't actually know how the words were spelt as I listened to the audiobook a while ago.

The pronouns are Ve, Vis, and Ver, terms first coined by Keri Hulme I believe back in the 80’s. I know Greg Egan used them in his 97 novel Diaspora, though I coulda sworn they were also used in 94’s Quarantine. 

[EverythingIsGreat]

3 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Reading your post carefully, I will echo Sven’s initial question - “Why does it matter to you?”  I will also follow that up with “that you felt the need to come and post about it?”

 

Like you said, it is irrelevant to the story, so why does it matter?  All of the characters could be referred to as “they/ them” and it wouldn’t change the story, so again, “Why does it matter that it was written this way to you?”  Can’t we just enjoy the story without even worrying about it in the first place?

 

This is a background fiction forum and I comment on background fiction. All of it. I often see comments here about stories that seem to some to include gratuitus combat scenes as a cheap way to attract readers (the so-called "bolter porn"). As I said, the pronoun situation in the novel mentioned also seemed gratuitous. And I wanted to find out if this use of pronouns is a more common thing. Other than that, nothing. It is whatever one reads into it.

 

 

2 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

 

In general, any creation will be a product of the time in which it is created [unless it is deliberately created to reflect an earlier period]. Earlier Black Library fiction didn't feature these usages in a noticeable manner largely because these issues weren't as widespread or as accepted in the real world as they are now. Since issues of gender identity have achieved a level of visibility in modern society, it is only natural to expect them to be more widely reflected in the creations of our time. As socio-cultural mores change and evolve, the practices that affect artistic creation will similarly change and evolve (i.e., whether this is a temporary trend or permanent will largely depend upon socio-cultural factors). The 41st Millennium is closely following the 21st Century because the 41st Millennium (i.e., the Warhammer 40,000 setting) is a product of people living in the 21st Century.

 

Whether this is good or bad is up to the individual to decide.

 

As for why this topic might be closed, one potential reason has already reared its head herein - attacking/questioning other people's views on the issue, whether they are for or against. Another potential reason would be discussing the real world politics of the issue - something that would inevitably escalate. None of that is necessary for, indeed it would be antithetical to, constructive discussion that helps members to better understand and enjoy the hobby.

 

Well, finally an answer. Although others had already offered information on other stories that include the issue discussed, and I thank them too. Again, I have no problem with including in stories the accepted mores of any segment of the population in a few technologically advanced societies of the early 21st century. The issue stood out because it seemed just thrown there. It is like an author stating "X was really tall" without the character's height having anything to do with the story or with the other characters. If I was commenting on such a story, I would definitely point that incongruity out.

[DarkChaplain]

1 hour ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

The issue stood out because it seemed just thrown there. It is like an author stating "X was really tall" without the character's height having anything to do with the story or with the other characters. If I was commenting on such a story, I would definitely point that incongruity out.

 

Not everything in a story will be chekov's gun, waiting to become useful, though.

Sometimes, there's simply window dressing, or audiovisual descriptions of characters and events. Heck, Tolkien was able to go on for pages upon pages about flora and fauna, despite it ever really mattering to the plot (though it became useful for adaptations like the movies).

 

Let me put it this way: There's no plot relevance to saying that a character is redheaded, either (unless the story is about a hairsalon or something?), or what color of clothing they wear - and yet physical traits like that are bogstandard fare when introducing a character in your story. You get the superficial traits out of the way to help establish your vision in a way that the reader can more easily imagine, and then place that now-visualized character into the unfolding plot. It's grounding the cast, making them more tangible, not to say relatable. Knowing their traits or living circumstances adds texture to their role.

 

Characters need not be blank slates, barely more than crash test dummies, going through the motions called plot. Actually, it's best that they are more than that. So long as it doesn't go on excessive tangents about their child's favorite cereal (unless it's about a parent going insane about their picky kid, or a advertisement jingle....), actively distracting from the unfolding plot to preach the good word of cinnamon bits, it's not really an issue anyhow, right?

Edited November 12, 2023 by DarkChaplain

[EverythingIsGreat]

A considered answer. I agree, however can I bring up Oll Persson again? The casual depiction of him as an Argonaut of myth resulted in figurative rolling of eyes in this forum. It seems one could explain it away using the otherwise obviously correct arguments DC makes above. But something about explaining it that way seems... I don't know, a bit off to me. I mean really? Oll an Argonaut just to provide a story with a bit of spicy dressing? And I am not even going to touch on the possibility that such characterization was done by the author precisely so that discussions like the present one would take place.

The pronoun issue in this particular case (the book is "Creed: Ashes of Cadia" by Jude Reid) could easily, imo, fall in the same category. 

Edited November 12, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
full title

[cheywood]

This seems like a non-issue to me, just like every gender related topic to come up in 40k. It’s no more remarkable than describing someone as male or female. Is Reid engaging in a transparent act of representation without any in universe reasoning? Absolutely. And that’s totally fine. Science fiction should represent our world, at least in broad strokes. As a younger person in a major metropolitan area I can assure everyone that non-binary people very much exist and it makes sense authors would include them in their stories. Yes, in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war, but that war is fought by the full breadth of mankind’s diversity, as The Emperor demands. 

Edited November 12, 2023 by cheywood

[Bryan Blaire]

 

11 minutes ago, cheywood said:

This seems like a non-issue to me

It is a non-issue - the OP has said that.  It’s irrelevant as much as Oll being an Argonaut is, it’s character grounding, it’s a description of the character, gratuitous characterization, nothing more.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Jareddm]

The only place I can see this becoming an actual focus is in the use of planetary scapegoating.  Planetary governments are free to use whatever horrific and draconian tactics they wish to enforce the tithe and the faith. If that means a particular race, gender, or sexuality is going to get thrown under the bus to keep the population from destroying the government because of impossible tithe requirements, then so be it.

To quote Flesh and Steel

Quote

'Nothing is ever what it seems, and the delineation between categories of things or of actions is never as clear cut as our rulers would have us believe. Your cousin here would be executed for his sexual preferences on some worlds, but here, it is nothing.'

'He does nothing wrong.'

'That's not my point. Human diversity of action and opinion is. This is a big galaxy, and human wickedness more than encompasses it.'

 

The Imperium doesn't care enough to be homophobic. But it also doesn't care enough not to be.

[Noserenda]

Oh yeah, i absolutely hate it when characters get a little flash of backstory or something that fills out a better picture of them. Nothing but utilitarianism for me, straight from a to b doing only what the plot requires ;) 

AND NO BACKCHAT! :P 

[N1SB]

Very interesting thread.  These types of points resonated with me:

 

8 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Neither of the gender choices have any bearing on the story, or in the characters' actions. They are akin to casually throwing something like "Oll Persson being a perpetual is ancient" which is I guess pointing out the likely obvious, and then stating "he was an actual Argonaut of myth", which doesn't really add anything except *cuteness* imo.

 

Is this (the gender pronoun use described) something new? Has it appeared in other BL stories? Is it a trendlet? Is the 420th century closely following the 20th?

 

6 hours ago, grailkeeper said:

There's also a bit about pronouns in the Gazkhull book. I suppose aliens could have completely different concepts of gender and Mechanicus could feel themselves ascended above such baseline human concerns. That being said, I don't feel many books are improved by adding these issues. It feels to me a bit forced, like it's being added because it's fashionable to add it. Maybe not my most enlightened opinion. 

 

Once in awhile, I do notice they stopped writing for the 41st millennium in favour of the 21st century.

 

I think Oll Persson was mentioned to kill good men in Memphis and the City of Angels, presumably MLK and RFK, and it was just jarring.  If I were to choose a moment in the 21st century, I'd probably pick the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, because that triggered the World Wars, but ok.

 

And it WOULD make sense for pronouns to change.  Let's just use you for an example.  You used to be plural and thou for singular. The only time I see thou is when reading the Bible, Shakespeare or Thor comics.  That's only a couple hundred years ago.  They'd just change a lot MORE.

 

I was agreeing to the point that Techpriests probably simplified pronouns because bionics, but also because they use High Gothic a lot.  High Gothic is Latin, they don't really use subjective pronouns like I/he/she/we (they do use objective ones like me/him/her/us).  Their speech should reflect that.  Just a minor thought.

 

(Brother Grailkeeper's a lawyer, he probably uses a lot more Latin than me and would like habeas corpus the pro bono out my caveat emptor.)

 

Cloning's a thing.  Would a Krieger care who was a boy or a girl?  It no longer even matters for reproduction.  Transhumanism is a thing, too.

 

At least aim for a change to the 30th millennium, I'll hand wave 10,000 years off, say the Imperium stagnated.  It's just too 21st century.

 

I know we're writing for 21st century audience, but at least try, strive, for at least a few more centuries out.  It's not going far enough.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

2 hours ago, N1SB said:

(Brother Grailkeeper's a lawyer, he probably uses a lot more Latin than me and would like habeas corpus the pro bono out my caveat emptor.)

As an aside we're largely taught these days not to use Latin, except for where there is no English, or the Latin is very well known, and we only get taught at law school the Latin nouns which are key, we wouldn't learn to conjugate verbs, because what we do needs to be understood clearly. 

 

In terms of phrases I see in common use, Pro Bono is a common one and there is no commonly used equivalent, as is mens rea (guilty mind or mindset) the counterpart to that, Actual reus (guilty acts) is nowadays less common I find, we mostly talk about the 'elements of the offence.'

 

It's all down to precision and clarity of understanding, which is why many Latin phrases are falling out of use, bona fide for example means 'good faith' or 'honest intention' but you'll often hear people referring to their 'bonafides' as meaning their documentary credentials, which isn't what 'bona fide' means at all.

 

Anyway, sorry for the thread drift, I just find that interesting. I do however wholeheartedly agree with your point that a more Latin based view of pronouns would make perfect sense for the Mechanicus. 

[Nagashsnee]

10 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

I invite you to read my post more carefully. The reason I posted this is because the pronouns used for the characters are irrelevant to the story or character actions. And also it is the first story I encountered this. 

 

 

The use of pronouns is irrelevant.  You have never encountered pronouns in a BL book before? Was it the use of pronouns in a specific sentence? If so share the sentence or give a page number so we can check it out.

 

I cant think of a BL that does not use pronouns. If this is the first time you find them, you must not read much BL? 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Nagashsnee