Modifying the cost of Adrenal Surge

[Thee85]

Hey guys, I had a question come up in a game with a friend the other day regarding the Adrenal Surge stratagem.  Can a Hive Tyrant’s free strat ability be used on Adrenal Surge if the controlling player only chooses one unit, or is it still subject to the restriction on stratagems that can target multiple units?   My friend was saying he could still use it for free if he only applied it to one unit, but this feels like it goes against the intent of the ruling.  I can’t really find any concrete examples though.  Any insight you all can provide is appreciated:).

[Emperor Ming]

Dataslate says:

 

MODIFYING A STRATAGEM’S CP COST Rules that modify the CP cost of a Stratagem when you target a particular unit can only do so for a Stratagem that targets multiple units if every unit you target has the same ability to modify the CP of that Stratagem. Rules that modify the CP cost of a Stratagem but that do not specify the name of the Stratagem can only be used to affect the CP cost of Battle Tactic Stratagems. This does not apply to the Air Caste Colossus, Striding Colossus or Towering Wraith Construct abilities.

 

Its a battle tactic so, that looks like yes you can do it

[Xenith]

15 hours ago, Thee85 said:

or is it still subject to the restriction on stratagems that can target multiple units?   

 

What restriction is this? The above restriction is only relating to targeting multiple units with the same stratagem like rapid deployment on terminators, etc, where the 0 CP cost is baked into the datasheet. 

 

The ability to modify the CP cost of the strats is baked into the HT itself, and the strat itself specifies that 2 units can be chosen. I can see nothing that would prevent you from using the HT ability to targeting 1 unit without, or 2 units within synapse range. The only thing is that the HT can only use it on units within 12", so all targets need to be within 12" of the HT, and within synapse if you choose 2. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Xenith

[Thee85]

9 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

What restriction is this? The above restriction is only relating to targeting multiple units with the same stratagem like rapid deployment on terminators, etc, where the 0 CP cost is baked into the datasheet. 

 

The ability to modify the CP cost of the strats is baked into the HT itself, and the strat itself specifies that 2 units can be chosen. I can see nothing that would prevent you from using the HT ability to targeting 1 unit without, or 2 units within synapse range. The only thing is that the HT can only use it on units within 12", so all targets need to be within 12" of the HT, and within synapse if you choose 2. 

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback.  I appreciate it!  Xenith, this is what I thought as well initially.  John Lennon has a series on Art of War called Tyranid Invasion, in the 4th episode he talks about a ruling he received from GW prior to the Tampa Open stating that he couldn’t use Irresistible Will for free because it’s a stratagem the can effect multiple units at once.  He also said the same for Surprise Assault for the Vanguard Invader detachment.  He didn’t mention Adrenal Surge, so I’m not sure there and figured I’d ask.

 

 I’ve reread that passage multiple times and I don’t know what it means to be honest, lol.  It seems to me like it should apply like in the situation you mentioned above, but I figured I’d go with what Lennon said.  I really hope they clarify at some point.  Thanks again for the feedback!

[DemonGSides]

 

I can see the confusion.   That first rule would say that you'd have to target two hive tyrants to get it to be able to be used for free. 

 

It's a confusing rule and not one that makes logical sense. 

[Xenith]

I don't see how that applies here- the HT is never targeted, and the HT ability doesn't hinge on a particular unit, in the same way as the von ryans leaper intervention ability, or the lictor rapid ingress ability does. *those* are abilities that modify the CP cost of a strat when you target a particular unit. If every unit targeted by the HT ability also had to have an ability to reduce all strategem costs to zero, you could never use the strat.

 

The HT *is* affected by the second para, which is not for a specified stratagem.

 

 

12 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

That first rule would say that you'd have to target two hive tyrants to get it to be able to be used for free.

 

As above, the HT's ability doesn't specify that a particular unit has to be the target of the ability to modify the CP cost. 

 

I'm reading this as "if I target this particular unit, the strat has a cost of 2 cp, but I target that particular unit, it has a cost of 0cp" (because it has a rule like the VRL's). The HT doesn't comply with that, as it the cp reduction is not based on which unit in particular is targeted. 

[DemonGSides]

I don't think your examples are counter to the rule as screen capped, but actually I change my mind on this anyways.

 

Hive Tyrant can only target one unit for a strat. I think that basically just limits the strat to that one unit so it doesn't matter either way about targeting multiples.

 

I think there's more to explore with the multiple targets rule, but I don't think it matters here. I think you'd be fine to get a free adrenal surge on a single unit within range, no problem. The strat says it can target more, but Hive Tyrants ability is what's firing the strat against a single unit. And since adrenal surge says UP to, I think the HT rule auto decides it as being a single unit.

 

Still some vaguery! Just not in my initial direction. It's more of a question of layers and priority that I don't think we rightly know. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by DemonGSides