Thoughts on the world championship marine list?

[chapter master 454]

 

So this is a list I am surprised not to see more discussion around and thoughts on it. Suppose it isn't everyone's cup of tea to talk competitive but I thought I would bring it here since it is rather interesting to see such a list at what would be considered "the best of the best" tournament. Granted, I heard there was some ruling disputes about something but it still got 2nd, nothing short of impressive.

 

Interesting things to note in that this isn't the standard detachment most would of thought would ba tournament topper. Ironstorm and Gladius currently are doing the rounds as considered the strongest though I suppose this detachment does sit in the level just below that with Firestorm. Interesting to see such a list brought as it both spams inceptors but also brings a variety of other things, notably Centurions. We do see a typically death star infiltrator squad of aggressors lead by calgar and a biologis, Uriel for giving the centurions deep strike which in combination with the detachment means you can have them arrive wherever, then at opponents end turn have them leave and come back somewhere else which counters their glacial speeds.

 

And there is the callidus assassin. If your faction is imperial...and you don't run a callidus are you even imperial at that point?

 

Curious about what other fraters think about this list.

[DemonGSides]

It's not the kind of list that epitomizes WAAC thinking just based on unit choices, but it still feels real meh as a concept to me.

 

Space Marines in general feel pretty MEH in any datasheet features a normal bolter or bolt rifle, so it's unsurprising to see this conglomeration. Biologis+Aggressors+Chapter Master/Captain whenever possible is probably my most favorite thing in the codex.  Otherwise I'm pretty much never interested in running scouts, but that's a me thing.

 

I've seen more horrific looking lists at competitive tables. At least it isn't just a bunch of 3x of everything. 

[Malakithe]

Im liking those juicy Inceptors. Not a fan of using named characters but thats a personal rule of mine

[Dracos]

It’s Vanguard, and isn’t using DWK, so that’s a plus for me.  Using the Aggressors in their place is an interesting choice made possible by Marneus and his buddies doing the heavy work, that and the LOS tournament terrain layout gives much better blocking of fire lanes than you’ll find at just about any casual store event. 
 

Having chosen to lean heavy into Gravis units along time ago it looks similar-ish to the list I’ve been playing recently except I don’t own Scouts or Centurions, instead using Eliminators and a configuration of Bladeguard and more Aggressors instead. 
 

I don’t usually like ”borrowing” named characters, but the way this edition is set up it doesn’t bother me as much as “borrowing” special Chapter units like Deathwing Knights or Sanguinary Guard. To each their own on that. After combing through the different characters, I don’t think any of them are so OP they unbalance the meta. Marneus and the boys or a Primarch would be in every SM list at a tournament if they did. I keep looking at some shenanigans with Lysander and Garadon but just because they fit my theme of heavy infantry/spec ops theme. 
 

 I’m using a Combi-Lt instead of a Callidus Both have similar-ish roles and when I can get my hands on the new Scout models I could see doing the same … or not. 
 

I have a much heavier focus on using the Vanguard to get into melee instead of primarily shooting though. Lennon’s list is all about movement scoring and shooting. Which is spot on for what the Vanguard detachment can do for you.   That use to be my favorite way to play but honestly it doesn’t feel like a “proper” game anymore unless I can get into a couple scrums before Turn 5 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Dracos

[WrathOfTheLion]

1 hour ago, Dracos said:

I don’t usually like ”borrowing” named characters, but the way this edition is set up it doesn’t bother me as much as “borrowing” special Chapter units like Deathwing Knights or Sanguinary Guard. To each their own on that. After combing through the different characters, I don’t think any of them are so OP they unbalance the meta. Marneus and the boys or a Primarch would be in every SM list at a tournament if they did. I keep looking at some shenanigans with Lysander and Garadon but just because they fit my theme of heavy infantry/spec ops theme. 

Named characters are easier to 'borrow', in that they're a one-time purchase or addition. You'd have to invest in more time, effort and money for those special units. In a way it's weird, but at the same time, every Xenos/whatever player has been ignoring paint and picking the best rules for as long as I remember. As odd as it can feel, if it's fine for them, then I guess it's fine for the Space Marine players. 

[Tokugawa]

If you didn't painted your army blue and really don't want to place a blue-gold colored Calgar model among them, kitbash and conversion are always an option.

[Karhedron]

6 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

If you didn't painted your army blue and really don't want to place a blue-gold colored Calgar model among them, kitbash and conversion are always an option.

 

Very true. I bashed a Calgar into a SW Gravis Captain. But I could still run him as Calgar and run my Wolves a grey UMs as long as I don't run any SW specific units. Not something I would do in normal games but for a tournement, never say never.

 

[Karhedron]

I am surprised at the lack of Battleline units but I can see Scouts filling the role as they are very cheap 2W bodies and decent action monkeys.

 

I am coming round to the value of Centurion Devastators as they are quite tough and bring good firepower for their points. I think that they would be swapped out for other ranged units like Devastators or a Ballistus without affecting the working of the list too much. Although I am assuming in this case, putting such a powerful infantry unit together was to Maximise Ventris's "Master of the Fleet" ability

 

Uriel Ventris and Calgar between them bring a lot of Straragem economy and abilities to the game.

 

Overall this army can bring a huge amount of firepower to bear on enemy units almost at will. Units like Infiltrators that mess with Deep Strike might interfere slightly but not too much I think,

[Dracos]

@Karhedron … opposing this list with Infiltrators got me thinking. Two savvy pilots, each running a mirror match of this list would be a brutal chess match of maneuvering and firepower. 

[Galron]

Its a very boring list without a lot of style and a bunch of ugly models. I can see how it would do well as that is a lot of t5 models that are -1 to hit who are packing a lot of firepower who are suddenly in your face if you dont screen well. It is a very unassuming list that would likely be underestimated at first as being slow.

[Karhedron]

Actually apart from the Scouts, most of the models are T6/7.

[Dracos]

13 hours ago, Galron said:

Its a very boring list without a lot of style and a bunch of ugly models. I can see how it would do well as that is a lot of t5 models that are -1 to hit who are packing a lot of firepower who are suddenly in your face if you dont screen well. It is a very unassuming list that would likely be underestimated at first as being slow.

I have no clue how you consider this a boring list. List that focus on maneuvering over excessive firepower or indestructibility always take the game to a higher tactical level. It’s a game of chess at that point, not checkers.
 

What is it about Vanguard you find boring? 
 

Ugly? Sounds like a anti-Primaris bias, unless it’s just Gravis models you don’t like? Blindhamster agreed with your post so maybe I’m missing something because I’ve usually agreed with and learned from a lot of his post over the years. 

 

My own bias of course is I’ve dabbled in other play styles but always gravitate back to a Raven Guard play style because I see it as the one most emulating a modern professional military. 

[DemonGSides]

Old style scouts are pretty ugly. 

[Galron]

10 hours ago, Dracos said:

I have no clue how you consider this a boring list. List that focus on maneuvering over excessive firepower or indestructibility always take the game to a higher tactical level. It’s a game of chess at that point, not checkers.
 

What is it about Vanguard you find boring? 
 

 

It has no pizazz. I love the vanguard detachment, it is the coolest light mobile detachment in the book. A bunch of boring gravis units and the stupidly ugly fatboy centurions are what I dont like. I was hoping centurions wouldnt make the cut to the new codex, especially since they got rid of dreadnought drop pods and many other units. The only worse looking unit GW has produced were those old possessed that were replaced inside of a year a few editions ago. Theres no style to it, its just gamey use of detachment rules with units that really shouldnt be able to do it, with no theme. And yes, I loved the old rules that said big clunky units like terminators could not infiltrate seeing as they couldnt sneak up and hide from anyone(this was pre-primaris but the idea holds). 

 

Like I said, its not a bad list tactically speaking, but the theme oriented fast attack cavalry player in me hates it. :)

[Dracos]

1 hour ago, Galron said:

It has no pizazz. I love the vanguard detachment, it is the coolest light mobile detachment in the book. A bunch of boring gravis units and the stupidly ugly fatboy centurions are what I dont like. I was hoping centurions wouldnt make the cut to the new codex, especially since they got rid of dreadnought drop pods and many other units. The only worse looking unit GW has produced were those old possessed that were replaced inside of a year a few editions ago. Theres no style to it, its just gamey use of detachment rules with units that really shouldnt be able to do it, with no theme. And yes, I loved the old rules that said big clunky units like terminators could not infiltrate seeing as they couldnt sneak up and hide from anyone(this was pre-primaris but the idea holds). 

 

Like I said, its not a bad list tactically speaking, but the theme oriented fast attack cavalry player in me hates it. :)

Can’t blame the player for using what’s available. Totally agree though about the oxymoron of Raven Guard / Vanguard rules being more effective on heavy infantry than Phobos. 
 

GW should really have found a way to give RG/Vanguard Phobos units some real bite instead of what they’ve done twice now. 
 

On the other hand, if there was going to be a Chapter that could infiltrate Centurions, it would be Raven Guard 
 

@DemonGSides yeah old Scouts ugly as Eldari sin. Really looking forward to the resculpts. 

[Blindhamster]

13 hours ago, Dracos said:

Ugly? Sounds like a anti-Primaris bias, unless it’s just Gravis models you don’t like? Blindhamster agreed with your post so maybe I’m missing something because I’ve usually agreed with and learned from a lot of his post over the years.

Firstly, thanks <3 I appreciate the nice words.

Reason I agree on the ugly sentiment:
- old scouts are among the worst models for marines ever IMO

- centurions are the worst models for marines ever IMO (lol)

- The uriel model isn't very nice at all (I have it, never built it because of the uglyness of most of it - exception being his sword)

- I don't hate Inceptors, I have a fair few myself (9), but they're definitely among my least varourite looking primaris models
- Aggressors crotch gubbins look dodgy, they're also the worst of the gravis models available visually (though again, I'm aware they're good on the table, and do have 9 of my own)

- Calgars update is probably my least favourite primaris update of a character, his backpack is.. weird.

 

So the overall list aesthetic isn't an attractive one to me.

 

In terms of the overall list feeling boring, whilst yes there's stuff about maneuverability that is nice in the list (mostly "shenanigans"), it feels pretty cooky cutter and meh relying on all the top meta marine units between aggressors, centurions and inceptors. Doesn't mean it isn't a good list, its clearly a very good one, played by a better player.

 

But yes, to me its not an attractive set of models, comparatively nor is it an exciting or interesting list really.

[MegaVolt87]

If vanguard detachment was meant to be a lighter infantry force, what was the intended heavy/ gravis infantry force supposed to be? I'm sure GW Devs are yet again floored that their intended design works the opposite of what they believed yet again. 

[Karhedron]

I am guessing that the Anvil Siegeforce was thematically intended for Gravis-heavy armies but I am not really sure how well it suits them in practice.

[Dracos]

Anvil looks fine for a narrative game where you know you’re playing the defender. 
 

With a lot of Gravis weapons being 18” or shorter I’ve thought Firestorm was more the intended detachment, but then you’re mixing expensive transports with expensive infantry choices and it doesn’t give you many models to play missions with. 
 

I see two detachments worth taking for Gravis heavy build and those at Gladius and Vanguard.  Both require a very different pilot than the straight forward detachments focused on aim and fire or advance and melee. 

[jpwyrm]

Being a modeller and hobyist first and gamer second, I like the list Lennon brought to the World Champs. Centurions out of the box are very ugly indeed, but that can be fixed with a little kitbash. Same goes for Scouts, the official models have some major issues but that can be worked around with conversion or by using alternative models. I would say there is probably too many Inceptors but I get that it's a meta choice more than anything and you have to lean hard on the best units when you go to the World Championship.

 

The real gem for me is being able to field a 100% Infantry army that still can move around a lot and be active in all phases of the game. It has the spec-ops feel that comes with Vanguard and though it is clearly a shooty army, it's not a point, click and delete gunline either and it still has teeth in close combat. It has the potential to make you grow as a player - I know, I tried fielding John's first iteration of the list and got wrecked by SoB. Clearly, the pilot's skills matter! 

[Tokugawa]

Shooty Centurion was a joke in the whole 9th, and white elephant in 10th. Lennon used deep strike to make them effectively arrive fire position, turn them to "good" from "bad", it's innovative, why boring? Coincidently, his opponent in the final is famous for "most boring builds".

[Tacitus]

On 11/24/2023 at 1:49 PM, chapter master 454 said:

 

So this is a list I am surprised not to see more discussion around and thoughts on it. Suppose it isn't everyone's cup of tea to talk competitive but I thought I would bring it here since it is rather interesting to see such a list at what would be considered "the best of the best" tournament. Granted, I heard there was some ruling disputes about something but it still got 2nd, nothing short of impressive.

 

Interesting things to note in that this isn't the standard detachment most would of thought would ba tournament topper. Ironstorm and Gladius currently are doing the rounds as considered the strongest though I suppose this detachment does sit in the level just below that with Firestorm. Interesting to see such a list brought as it both spams inceptors but also brings a variety of other things, notably Centurions. We do see a typically death star infiltrator squad of aggressors lead by calgar and a biologis, Uriel for giving the centurions deep strike which in combination with the detachment means you can have them arrive wherever, then at opponents end turn have them leave and come back somewhere else which counters their glacial speeds.

 

And there is the callidus assassin. If your faction is imperial...and you don't run a callidus are you even imperial at that point?

 

Curious about what other fraters think about this list.

Ite pretty much the generic parts of every list squished together - Aggressor Bomb, Buncha Infiltrators who can sticky cap - the closest thing to a "sleeper" unit nobody has been talking about are the Centurions.  Nothing T4, 3+ in the list that doesn't have some sort of a gimmick. The points load of the shooters forced the change from Phobos to Scouts.   I'm not sure the Erads were worth it.  I might have played with it trying to dump the Erads, and somehow afford a second Cent Dev unit.  Don't forget the Deep Strike and Fade should also work on the Inceptors. 

[Tacitus]

On 11/26/2023 at 7:15 AM, Dracos said:

@Karhedron … opposing this list with Infiltrators got me thinking. Two savvy pilots, each running a mirror match of this list would be a brutal chess match of maneuvering and firepower. 

I think he meant the Infiltrator Unit not Assorted Units That Can Infiltrate.  This list can't afford Infiltrators The Unit but yeah bump it up to 2250 or something so the scounts get converted and it would be fun to watch 

On 11/28/2023 at 1:48 PM, Karhedron said:

Actually apart from the Scouts, most of the models are T6/7.

Yep the way I phrased it was the only T4 was there for the gimmick, otherwise it was t6+ 

[Dracos]

7 hours ago, Tacitus said:

I think he meant the Infiltrator Unit not Assorted Units That Can Infiltrate.  This list can't afford Infiltrators The Unit but yeah bump it up to 2250 or something so the scounts get converted and it would be fun to watch 

Yep the way I phrased it was the only T4 was there for the gimmick, otherwise it was t6+ 

Yes … that’s what I was referring to. When he mentioned a counter play with Infiltrators the unit … it got me thinking about a mirror match with units from this list beebopping all over the place. Turns into 3D chess :)

 

@Tacitus interesting thought definitely more firepower but he could only teleport one or the other each turn and he’d have to lose Uriel and the Callidus with the Eradicators to afford it. 

[chapter master 454]

Had a wonderfully funny image of Centurions dropping in along side the Inceptors.

 

"You aren't flying fat-boy!"

"I'm not, this is falling; with style!"

 

I know it's supposed to be something like space marine flyers coming in, dropping them off and leaving but I can't get the image out of Centurions just being booted out of a thunderhawk and their impact being part of the intended damage they'd cause. I mean...they must weigh somewhere north of 10 tons easily with all the packed in armour and then munitions loaded...