Firstborn dilemma

[TheArtilleryman]

OK, so I am really torn on this issue and wondered if I could see what people here think.

I have this firstborn army, painted as my own custom chapter, the Winged Lancers (totally not Kislev copyright infringment!!). Here it is in all its glory:

 

 

I also have some scouts, not in the main picture:

 

 

 

This was designed as a fast moving, mechanised army, with all the infantry in squads of 6 and mounted in Razorbacks. I absolutely loved putting this force together, especially the custom character kitbashes.

 

Thing is, now I have some issues.

1. 10th has invalidated this list.

2. Tactical squads are now only allowed in squads of 10, and not even 5s are allowed.

3. I can’t help feeling that firstborn are tiny, even compared to guardsmen, now that Primaris are the big thing.

4. I can’t proxy the squads as primaris because primaris can’t ride in Razorbacks and aren’t allowed special weapons.

5. Edit: They’ve removed the assault cannon option for Razorbacks.

6. They’ve removed the combi-weapon option for jump captains.

7. Sniper scout squads are no longer allowed.

 

I am also always looking for funds to support my other projects (Tau, Guard, Raven Guard) and am limited on storage.

 

However, as an army I still feel like it looks cool and so parting with it will be hard.

 

What would you do? Sell it? If so, what would be a reasonable price? Ot would you rework the list? I could build 1 x 10 man tac squad as one Razorback is convertible to a Rhino. But then I’d have a spare transport. I’ve also thought about repainting the Stormtalon for my Raven Guard, but I like it so I keep putting that off.

 

Any thoughts?

Edited November 29, 2023 by TheArtilleryman

[Orion]

Don't sell.

Your "invalid" firstborn army probably means more to you than some other person.

[Sergeant Centurion]

Dont sell the, i feel you are atteached by emotions to them, sell them will be a mistake.

[Karhedron]

The rules for Tactical Squads have been changed in the 10th edition Codex compared to the Index. Although they have to be bought as 10-man squads, they can now be split into 5-man squads at Deployment so can ride in Razorbacks (with a Character if you wish).

 

You might need to tinker with your weapons slightly as you will now have to have half your squads with Heavy weapons and half with Special weapons but aside from that you should be OK.

[TheArtilleryman]

33 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

The rules for Tactical Squads have been changed in the 10th edition Codex compared to the Index. Although they have to be bought as 10-man squads, they can now be split into 5-man squads at Deployment so can ride in Razorbacks (with a Character if you wish).

Ah, didn’t know this as I don’t have the codex. That’s good at least. Is it ok to take 2 transports for 1 squad? It used to be that there was a limit on the number of transports allowed.

[Halandaar]

1 hour ago, JayJapanB said:

Don't sell.

Your "invalid" firstborn army probably means more to you than some other person.

 

1 hour ago, Sargeant Centurion said:

Dont sell the, i feel you are atteached by emotions to them, sell them will be a mistake.

 

Agreed, almost every time I sold an army that I put any proper effort in to, I eventually regretted it. 

 

@TheArtilleryman - Although nothing in Warhammer lasts forever, nothing removed from Warhammer lasts forever either. We've been using the term "Squatted" for nearly 30 years to describe things permanently cut, and now even the Squats themselves are back. Warhammer Fantasy was totally deleted but is now on the cusp of a comeback with plastic kits from 15-20 years ago going back into production.

 

Firstborn tactical squads and so on might be on the downswing now, but in 10 years time when GW has milked every Heresy armour mark for all it's worth there's nothing to say they won't start visiting other elements of the setting to give those Mark 7 kits a new lease of life. Things like Badab and the Armageddon wars could easily make a comeback as "historical" campaigns for either system. 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Halandaar

[TheArtilleryman]

What do you reckon about the sniper scouts? Proxy as Eliminators? I hate doing stuff like this … it’s bad enough I have to proxy the assault squads as jump pack intercessors. The sniper scouts aren’t easy to kitbash with bolters etc, that’s the issue.

Edited November 29, 2023 by TheArtilleryman

[Karhedron]

37 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

What do you reckon about the sniper scouts? Proxy as Eliminators? I hate doing stuff like this … it’s bad enough I have to proxy the assault squads as jump pack intercessors. The sniper scouts aren’t easy to kitbash with bolters etc, that’s the issue.

 

You have a couple of options. Proxying them as Eliminators in fine in friendly games. If you play competitively, you may run into a problem that they are on the wrong sized bases. This affects where you can put them and how much terrain they occupy. 5-man Scout squads now come with:

 

Serg with BP/CS

0-1 Sniper Rifle

0-1 Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher

2-4 Boltgun or Shutgun or BP/Knife

 

 

You should be able to run at least 1 legal Scout squad with the models you have. You can probably stretch that to 2 with a few extra models.

 

[TheArtilleryman]

3 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

You have a couple of options. Proxying them as Eliminators in fine in friendly games. If you play competitively, you may run into a problem that they are on the wrong sized bases. This affects where you can put them and how much terrain they occupy. 5-man Scout squads now come with:

 

Serg with BP/CS

0-1 Sniper Rifle

0-1 Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher

2-4 Boltgun or Shutgun or BP/Knife

 

 

You should be able to run at least 1 legal Scout squad with the models you have. You can probably stretch that to 2 with a few extra models.

 

Yeah I can field 1 squad with shotguns/bolters and a heavy weapon. I have 4 snipers and another heavy weapon spare. 
 

If I could convert 2 snipers to bolters or something then it would be ok, but as I said it’s awkward to do because the sniper models have the guns moulded into the bodies.

 

Also all of my guys are on the wrong size bases cos they should be on 32mm but most of these marines predate the change in standard for SM.

Edited November 29, 2023 by TheArtilleryman

[Karhedron]

2 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Also all of my guys are on the wrong size bases cos they should be on 32mm but most of these marines predate the change in standard for SM.

 

Generally speaking, old models are fine on old bases. It is only if you are trying to proxy them as a different unit that some people might complain (most people will be fine with it, I know I would be). The only time it might be an issue is if you want to take them to tournaments.

[TheArtilleryman]

OK so with a slight reorganisation:

 

 

* 2 x 6 tactical squads with a special and a sergeant now changed to 1 x 10 with standard loadout. 2 Razorbacks for the one squad.

* One assault marine converted to a sergeant with plasma pistol and fist to make maximum advantage of the weapons available. Will have to proxy as jump intercessors.

* Sternguard squad now 5 strong

* Devastator squad now 5 strong

* Only “illegal” models now are the assault cannon Razorbacks (I’ll just run them as lascannons I guess) and the Captain’s combi-weapon. I’ll call this a plasma pistol. Don’t like proxies but it will have to do.

 

and a handful of spare guys:

 

 

Can't really do much with the extra tactical guys. It’s always a shame when fully painted models are “wasted.”
Also annoying about the scouts. I could put one sniper in the other squad, switch him for a shotgun guy and call the other 2 snipers bolters, but that just seems yuk…

 

[Galron]

The tactical thing is solved above. You are allowed a transport per squad so a pair of razor backs per 10 man squad is fine as long as you have 2 other infantry squads to buy them "for." I believe the rule says they simply have to be occupied at the start of the game. Note that razorbacks dont get dual assault cannons anymore :(

 

Devastators are still a good thing to have and are better since you can move with heavy weapons with no penalty. I throw 2 of mine in a drop pod. 

 

Your assault squad can easily be an assault intercessor squad, you will just have to change a few weapons out.

 

Vindicators and whirlwinds are still good. I love Vindicators and use three in my standard Iron Warriors list.

 

So all is not lost. Oh and Winged Lancers existed about 400 years before GW ever incorporated :)

[TheArtilleryman]

Thanks for all the ideas guys!

Edited November 29, 2023 by TheArtilleryman

[Halandaar]

12 minutes ago, Galron said:

So all is not lost. Oh and Winged Lancers existed about 400 years before GW ever incorporated :)

 

Chapter Master Joakim Brodén approves this message.

[NovemberIX]

One thing I'd like to add is that if GW rules aren't the only game in town anymore,  One Page Rules covers just about any and all loadouts for Space Marines ~ Classic ™ for free, though admittedly, it does require other people to switch over too, but again, the base rules are free.

[TheArtilleryman]

Right. I might have sorted the scouts. Need to finish the paint job but how does this look? Converted two snipers to bolters  and mixed up the loadout.

Edited November 29, 2023 by TheArtilleryman

[Marshal Reinhard]

Never sell an army because current edition is wonky on the rules, it might just be walked back

[Dr. Clock]

Very cool oldschool army!

 

I don't think the list you'd build from this collection is even that bad for fun games of 10th, although admittedly it's also not quite a 2000 point collection right now... more like 1750, depending on how many Lt.'s you like the look of lol

 

1750 pts:

 

Characters:

 

Librarian (we're going to forget he's in terminator armour until you possibly add some terminators to the list)

Jump Pack Captain

Lt. with combi (you end up with a few extra marines since you can't/shouldn't take 6-man tacticals... convert any of them to hold a combi-weapon and he can go score points on his lonesome)

 

Tactical squad x 10 - breaks into 2x5 and hangs out in 2xlas razorbacks; decent backfield scoring!

Devastator Squad x 5 - roll forward in Bolter razors to threaten (not capture!) 2 midfield objectives; friendly opponents will let you keep using assault cannons on these if you want, although TL Heavy Bolters are okay these days and the real reason for the tank is the Fire Support rule anyway...

Sternguard x5 - 2nd HBolter razor - this unit is the 3rd 5-man, whom you can easily mark out in some way as veterans to make use of sternguard rules IMO. Your models are old enough that at least a quarter of them can have the veterancy IMO ; )

 

Assault Intercessors with jump packs x10 - Hang out with captain and go grab a side objective.

2x5 Scouts - action monkeys and harassment - friendly opponents will let you take one unit of sniper rifles.

Stormhawk Interceptor - better datasheet than the stormtalon. If you'd consider converting it to have lasers instead of cannons I'd suggest proxying as a stormspeeder thunderstrike

Whirlwind - indirect option doesn't hurt

Vindicator - actually pretty good and lots of fun

 

Realistically I'd agree that the tactical squads are the weakest link here, but you're not at 2000 points, so instead of selling this collection you may find that it's cost-effective to revisit the army and add just a few things to make this a more relevant 10th Ed. list. Specifically, swapping taciticals into 2x5 sternguard is just a matter of opponent's permission honestly, and if you convert any bare minimum of combi-weapons into those units then nobody will bat an eye.

 

This type of list looks like Firestorm Assault detachment to me which will let you lean into the transports theme pretty well. A second devastator unit would also be an  excellent option that could be accomplished with just a few weapon swaps.

 

If you really want to convert some primaris loadout squads, I wouldn't have a problem with cannon razors counting as Impulsors. Then you could have some Infernus and bladeguard if that appeals. Alternatively, add a landraider to the force as caddy for a snowflaker Primaris conversion project (I'm doing 10 oldmarines with flamers for Infernus squad and Vulkan in a Landraider in my own Firestorm detachment).

 

Re: basing, again really nobody worth playing casually is going to care, and even some tournaments will allow that those are the bases supplied for the minis, though they might take a dimmer view on tacticals-as-sternguard. You may yet be surprised how much better oldmarines look on 32mm than 25mm. I swapped like 40 old Salamanders to 32mm when the urban sculpted bases were released in late 7th and I'm glad I did (even though obviously putting those on old metal slottabases is pretty fiddly!).

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

 

 

[TheArtilleryman]

27 minutes ago, Dr. Clock said:

Very cool oldschool army!

 

I don't think the list you'd build from this collection is even that bad for fun games of 10th, although admittedly it's also not quite a 2000 point collection right now... more like 1750, depending on how many Lt.'s you like the look of lol

 

1750 pts:

 

Characters:

 

Librarian (we're going to forget he's in terminator armour until you possibly add some terminators to the list)

Jump Pack Captain

Lt. with combi (you end up with a few extra marines since you can't/shouldn't take 6-man tacticals... convert any of them to hold a combi-weapon and he can go score points on his lonesome)

 

Tactical squad x 10 - breaks into 2x5 and hangs out in 2xlas razorbacks; decent backfield scoring!

Devastator Squad x 5 - roll forward in Bolter razors to threaten (not capture!) 2 midfield objectives; friendly opponents will let you keep using assault cannons on these if you want, although TL Heavy Bolters are okay these days and the real reason for the tank is the Fire Support rule anyway...

Sternguard x5 - 2nd HBolter razor - this unit is the 3rd 5-man, whom you can easily mark out in some way as veterans to make use of sternguard rules IMO. Your models are old enough that at least a quarter of them can have the veterancy IMO ; )

 

Assault Intercessors with jump packs x10 - Hang out with captain and go grab a side objective.

2x5 Scouts - action monkeys and harassment - friendly opponents will let you take one unit of sniper rifles.

Stormhawk Interceptor - better datasheet than the stormtalon. If you'd consider converting it to have lasers instead of cannons I'd suggest proxying as a stormspeeder thunderstrike

Whirlwind - indirect option doesn't hurt

Vindicator - actually pretty good and lots of fun

 

Realistically I'd agree that the tactical squads are the weakest link here, but you're not at 2000 points, so instead of selling this collection you may find that it's cost-effective to revisit the army and add just a few things to make this a more relevant 10th Ed. list. Specifically, swapping taciticals into 2x5 sternguard is just a matter of opponent's permission honestly, and if you convert any bare minimum of combi-weapons into those units then nobody will bat an eye.

 

This type of list looks like Firestorm Assault detachment to me which will let you lean into the transports theme pretty well. A second devastator unit would also be an  excellent option that could be accomplished with just a few weapon swaps.

 

If you really want to convert some primaris loadout squads, I wouldn't have a problem with cannon razors counting as Impulsors. Then you could have some Infernus and bladeguard if that appeals. Alternatively, add a landraider to the force as caddy for a snowflaker Primaris conversion project (I'm doing 10 oldmarines with flamers for Infernus squad and Vulkan in a Landraider in my own Firestorm detachment).

 

Re: basing, again really nobody worth playing casually is going to care, and even some tournaments will allow that those are the bases supplied for the minis, though they might take a dimmer view on tacticals-as-sternguard. You may yet be surprised how much better oldmarines look on 32mm than 25mm. I swapped like 40 old Salamanders to 32mm when the urban sculpted bases were released in late 7th and I'm glad I did (even though obviously putting those on old metal slottabases is pretty fiddly!).

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

I actually have a spare Landraider that used to serve my Grey Knights, which I could repaint and can easily mock up a Lieutenant, which would bring this up to 1995 points. Also the squad in the middle with the librarian is already converted as custom Sternguard, all with lovely invalid combi-weapons lol ….

 

This is how it looks on the 40K app with those units added. All Razorbacks are being counted as lascannons:

 

(1995 Points)

 

Space Marines
Raven Guard
Gladius Task Force

Strike Force (2000 Points)

 

CHARACTERS

Captain with Jump Pack (85 Points)
    • Warlord
    • 1x Plasma pistol
      1x Power fist

Librarian (65 Points)
    • 1x Bolt pistol
      1x Force weapon
      1x Smite

Lieutenant (65 Points)
    • 1x Bolt Pistol
      1x Master-crafted power weapon
      1x Plasma pistol

BATTLELINE

Tactical Squad (160 Points)
    • 1x Tactical Sergeant
        • 1x Boltgun
          1x Close combat weapon
          1x Power weapon
    • 8x Tactical Marine
        • 8x Bolt pistol
          7x Boltgun
          8x Close combat weapon
          1x Meltagun
    • 1x Tactical Marine
        • 1x Bolt pistol
          1x Close combat weapon
          1x Missile launcher

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

Razorback (95 Points)
    • 1x Armoured tracks
      1x Storm bolter
      1x Twin lascannon

Razorback (95 Points)
    • 1x Armoured tracks
      1x Storm bolter
      1x Twin lascannon

Razorback (95 Points)
    • 1x Armoured tracks
      1x Storm bolter
      1x Twin lascannon

Razorback (95 Points)
    • 1x Armoured tracks
      1x Twin lascannon

OTHER DATASHEETS

Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs (85 Points)
    • 1x Assault Intercessor Sergeant with Jump Pack
        • 1x Plasma pistol
          1x Power fist
    • 4x Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs
        • 4x Astartes chainsword
          3x Heavy bolt pistol
          1x Plasma pistol

Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs (85 Points)
    • 1x Assault Intercessor Sergeant with Jump Pack
        • 1x Plasma pistol
          1x Power fist
    • 4x Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs
        • 4x Astartes chainsword
          3x Heavy bolt pistol
          1x Plasma pistol

Devastator Squad (120 Points)
    • 1x Devastator Sergeant
        • 1x Astartes chainsword
          1x Close combat weapon
          1x Combi-weapon
    • 4x Devastator
        • 4x Bolt pistol
          4x Close combat weapon
          2x Multi-melta
          2x Plasma cannon

Land Raider (240 Points)
    • 1x Armoured tracks
      2x Godhammer lascannon
      1x Twin heavy bolter

Scout Squad (55 Points)
    • 1x Scout Sergeant
        • 1x Astartes shotgun
          1x Bolt pistol
          1x Close combat weapon
    • 4x Scout
        • 4x Bolt pistol
          2x Boltgun
          4x Close combat weapon
          1x Heavy bolter
          1x Scout sniper rifle

Scout Squad (55 Points)
    • 1x Scout Sergeant
        • 1x Bolt pistol
          1x Boltgun
          1x Close combat weapon
    • 4x Scout
        • 1x Astartes shotgun
          4x Bolt pistol
          1x Boltgun
          4x Close combat weapon
          1x Missile launcher
          1x Scout sniper rifle

Sternguard Veteran Squad (100 Points)
    • 1x Sternguard Veteran Sergeant
        • 1x Close combat weapon
          1x Sternguard bolt pistol
          1x Power weapon
    • 4x Sternguard Veteran
        • 4x Close combat weapon
          4x Sternguard bolt pistol
          4x Combi-weapon

Stormtalon Gunship (165 Points)
    • 1x Armoured hull
      1x Skyhammer missile launcher
      1x Twin assault cannon

Vindicator (190 Points)
    • 1x Armoured tracks
      1x Demolisher cannon
      1x Storm bolter

Whirlwind (145 Points)
    • 1x Armoured tracks
      1x Hunter-killer missile
      1x Whirlwind vengeance launcher

Exported with App Version: v1.7.0 (23), Data Version: v304

 

Ironic that I started off this thread thinking about selling, but now we’re talking about adding units 

Edited November 29, 2023 by TheArtilleryman

[TheArtilleryman]

Another potential option might be to add a predator and a bike (outrider) squad instead of the landraider …

[Dr. Clock]

2 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

predator and a bike (outrider) squad instead of the landraider

IMO with 2x5 jump troops, 2x5 scouts and all those razorback units you'll have plenty of flexible scoring and board coverage already so the extra outriders don't really fill any holes. I use 2x3 Outriders and like them in my Primaris list, but they are 200 points of pure turn 1 sacrificial scoring and and then just move blockers if they survive... Predator Annihilator is strong enough to include in general IMO, but a Godhammer Landraider will fill the exact same role of backfield cannon role or an assault platform, depending on the mission. The one thing that doesn't quite work for the assault role is that you don't have a clear assault infantry unit to put inside the LR... But if you fancy a bit more converting you could probably scrounge a Company Champions so your Captain can ride in it as a 'minimum viable MSU assault squad'.

 

A predator would still probably be my pick over the fourth razorback if you've got space in a landraider for 10+ all else being equal too...

 

2000 pts:

 

Captain

Librarian

 

Tactical Squad (split to LR and Razor)

3x Razorback

 

Sternguard

Devastators

2x5 Assault intercessors

Company Heroes

1x5 Scout squad

Predator Annihilator

Vindicator

Whirlwind

Stormtalon

 

At that point you might swap stormtalon for scout squad 2 and razorback game to game depending on preference. It is sad indeed that flyers are subpar for such killer models.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Orion]

If you're worried about the assault cannons, you might be able to pickup some replacement bits. (and then keep the assault cannons for completeness sake)

Considering every rhino comes with the razorback loadout these days.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

I'm late to the discussion (and to the conversions) but 100% echoing everyone suggesting that you proxy the sniper scouts as Eliminators, which I plan to do, and just. Ask your opponents if they care if you run the Razorbacks with double AssCan. I've been running an old RT-era lasplasback with its original loadout as of last edition (hasn't gotten use this edition because of arbitrary restrictions on no combat squadding for devastators anymore though) and unless you're taking this army to tournaments, I don't think most opponents would mind.

 

Also, shopping around to see if anyone wants to play a game of a prior edition might be worth doing! Give some buddies a call and ask if they want to play retro and throw it back to 5th or 3rd edition. (Honestly, with how badly GW has a) gutted Necrons from index to codex and b) just screwed over firstborn in general, I'm HIGHLY tempted to just start trying to get 3rd ed or 5th/6th ed games going. I've been collecting the rulebooks for them, might as well put them to use and get some REAL games going with properly painted armies of the edition that brought me in to the game.)

 

And on a more emotional note, I've never been able to understand why people sell fully painted armies--if I sold my Dawn Blades, knowing someone was probably just going to strip and repaint them (and for some squads, I wouldn't blame them, the paint jobs are absolutely relics of me not knowing how to paint properly), I'd be gutted. Don't do that to yourself a few years down the line. Keep them around. Those models are too well done to chance someone else treasuring them properly.

[TheArtilleryman]

3 hours ago, Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch said:

I'm late to the discussion (and to the conversions) but 100% echoing everyone suggesting that you proxy the sniper scouts as Eliminators, which I plan to do, and just. Ask your opponents if they care if you run the Razorbacks with double AssCan. I've been running an old RT-era lasplasback with its original loadout as of last edition (hasn't gotten use this edition because of arbitrary restrictions on no combat squadding for devastators anymore though) and unless you're taking this army to tournaments, I don't think most opponents would mind.

 

Also, shopping around to see if anyone wants to play a game of a prior edition might be worth doing! Give some buddies a call and ask if they want to play retro and throw it back to 5th or 3rd edition. (Honestly, with how badly GW has a) gutted Necrons from index to codex and b) just screwed over firstborn in general, I'm HIGHLY tempted to just start trying to get 3rd ed or 5th/6th ed games going. I've been collecting the rulebooks for them, might as well put them to use and get some REAL games going with properly painted armies of the edition that brought me in to the game.)

 

And on a more emotional note, I've never been able to understand why people sell fully painted armies--if I sold my Dawn Blades, knowing someone was probably just going to strip and repaint them (and for some squads, I wouldn't blame them, the paint jobs are absolutely relics of me not knowing how to paint properly), I'd be gutted. Don't do that to yourself a few years down the line. Keep them around. Those models are too well done to chance someone else treasuring them properly.

Firstly, thanks for the kind words about the painting. Secondly, I’m pretty set on keeping them now after this conversation and I now feel a bit better about their legality. Plus, it’s a lot different getting them out and remembering why you like them, rather than just having them in a box and being a concept!

 

I have sold fully painted armies before - I sold a bunch of metal Cadians to expand and unify my guard in the plastic. I sold a whole WFB Chaos warriors army because they sorely needed a repaint and nobody I know plays. Most recently, I sold a large Eldar force.

The main reason for this is that I have no weekly or monthly budget for Warhammer, so if I want to buy stuff outside of the odd brush or paint, I need to sell things to fund it. I’ve done really well out of it before too. The Eldar army bought me a new Raven guard force and a Tau Stormsurge.
 

I’ve never been as reluctant to flog something before though, which is why I made the thread. This time I won’t do it; you have all helped me make the decision, thanks!

[AutumnEffect]

Never sell your fully painted models!
Don't you know you have to bury them with you so that they can serve you in the afterlife?