Firstborn dilemma

[Orange Knight]

My opinion differs from the general. I believe the decision you make has to be the one that benefits your hobby engagement and ultimate enjoyment.

 

It's simple - if you have doubts about how much use you'll get out of the army, or how much you'll be able enjoy it going forward, simply sell it and move on, or shelve it indefinitely.

 

Even if you move the models on, the effort was not wasted - you gained valuable skills and you enjoyed your time hobbying. Don't allow some old models to dictate your actions or enjoyment going forward.

 

You have pointed out that the models look small to you. You also care about how the army looks - I can tell from the effort that you've put into painting it. Will you enjoy it on the tabletop when Guardsmen are towering over your Marines? 

 

So, do you want to waste time and effort on explaining proxies and trying to make the army fit in the current rules, or would you rather start a new project that could ultimately bring you far more enjoyment going forward?

 

 

 

Sometimes we have to move on. I've also had trepidations in the past about selling armies. The first army I ever sold was a 3rd edition Black Templar force. Since then I have parted with entire Marine armies that pre-date the Primaris, a Grey Knights force, a Sons of Horus 30k Legion and an Imperial Knight army. With the funds I generated and the space I made on my shelf, I have replaces those armies with models I have enjoyed more.

[TheArtilleryman]

50 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

My opinion differs from the general. I believe the decision you make has to be the one that benefits your hobby engagement and ultimate enjoyment.

 

It's simple - if you have doubts about how much use you'll get out of the army, or how much you'll be able enjoy it going forward, simply sell it and move on, or shelve it indefinitely.

 

Even if you move the models on, the effort was not wasted - you gained valuable skills and you enjoyed your time hobbying. Don't allow some old models to dictate your actions or enjoyment going forward.

 

You have pointed out that the models look small to you. You also care about how the army looks - I can tell from the effort that you've put into painting it. Will you enjoy it on the tabletop when Guardsmen are towering over your Marines? 

 

So, do you want to waste time and effort on explaining proxies and trying to make the army fit in the current rules, or would you rather start a new project that could ultimately bring you far more enjoyment going forward?

 

 

 

Sometimes we have to move on. I've also had trepidations in the past about selling armies. The first army I ever sold was a 3rd edition Black Templar force. Since then I have parted with entire Marine armies that pre-date the Primaris, a Grey Knights force, a Sons of Horus 30k Legion and an Imperial Knight army. With the funds I generated and the space I made on my shelf, I have replaces those armies with models I have enjoyed more.

Thanks for your views! The points you’ve made are exactly my thoughts about the idea. I’ve sold a few armies because they were no longer what I wanted to focus on. This one is the first I’ve really been on the fence about because it has, I think, a really nice theme to it and some of the models, like the metal assault marines, have been in my collection for more than 20 years (and served in more than one set of colours :p).

 

I think based on all the opinions I am going to hold onto it for a while longer at least, as I can see ways it can work well. I won’t field it against primaris and I won’t mix any primaris guys into the same force because that will just be annoying. The other consideration is that I’m trying to be good and clear my leadweight so I should really get to the point where I’ve painted everything else before I buy loads more… always an eternal struggle!

[Jolemai]

If you have no problem using Legends rules, Assbacks use the Relic Razorback Datasheet that can be found in Legends: Adeptus Astartes.

 

(Note that this isn't available on the app, so list building with Legends is done via pen and paper or a third party app.)

[Galron]

While I think the right idea is here in this thread about simply modernizing and not selling this army, selling sometimes is the right thing. I am currently trying to sell my Tau army as I just dont play it any more. I dont find the army fun, I have 8 other armies in various stages of completion(as if an army can ever be complete) and the tau as my second biggest single army are taking up space. The problem with selling an army is you never ever get out of it what you put into it both in money and time. Then you get low low ballers like Warp Fire who make an offer and you feel like you just got insulted. 

[TheArtilleryman]

1 hour ago, Galron said:

The problem with selling an army is you never ever get out of it what you put into it both in money and time. Then you get low low ballers like Warp Fire who make an offer and you feel like you just got insulted. 

I stopped allowing best offers on eBay for exactly this reason. People literally take the mick. Now I just pick a price for buy it now and someone will either buy it or not. It may take longer but it’s better than a bad deal.

[Galron]

Trying to avoid ebay this time around since the government is now trying to tax us selling used goods out of our closets and paypal is reporting the numbers to the IRS(US issue only obviously).

[TheArtilleryman]

1 hour ago, Galron said:

Trying to avoid ebay this time around since the government is now trying to tax us selling used goods out of our closets and paypal is reporting the numbers to the IRS(US issue only obviously).

In the UK you can get taxed too if you make over a certain amount from selling. Not sure how much that is, maybe a couple thousand or so.

[TheArtilleryman]

Finally finished the scouts after several years gathering dust:

 

 

Land Raider drafted in and waiting for a repaint with a bunch of tacticals cobbled together from old bits - gotta have something to transport!

 

 

And a new kitbashed Lieutenant waiting for a paint job:

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by TheArtilleryman

[Galron]

Its only $600 here in the States and all the payment systems except Zell are reporting to the government now.

[TheArtilleryman]

7 hours ago, Galron said:

Its only $600 here in the States and all the payment systems except Zell are reporting to the government now.

That’s sad. Sorry for you guys …

[TheArtilleryman]

I might have had a brainwave on this …

 

How acceptable is it to use 40K tanks in games of Horus Heresy? Specifically the vindicator, whirlwind, rhinos and the regular godhammer land raider? 
 

My reasoning is as follows:

 

To retain the nostalgia factor I could reduce the firstborn army to the following:

 

1 jump captain

2 x 5 jump intercessors

1 librarian

1 Sternguard squad in razorback

1 devastator squad in razorback

1 tactical squad on foot

2 scout squads

 

 

… which comes in at exactly 1000 points.

 

The stormtalon can join my small Phobos Raven Guard force.

 

This leaves a land raider, whirlwind and vindicator, plus two rhinos - to make them 10th legal I already converted one razorback into a rhino and changed an assault cannon turret for a twin heavy bolter on the other. Was thinking this could just be proxied in HH as a rhino with a heavy bolter?

 

I’ve been eyeing up the Age of Darkness box for a long time now, and with my 40th coming up in a few months I’ve been toying with what to ask for. If I were to add the five vehicles above to the contents of that box I would already have over 2000 points for HH. Do you think this would be allowed by most players, or do people expect you to have actual HH versions?

 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by TheArtilleryman
Added pics

[Emperor Ming]

8 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

I might have had a brainwave on this …

 

How acceptable is it to use 40K tanks in games of Horus Heresy? Specifically the vindicator, whirlwind, rhinos and the regular godhammer landraider? 

Heresy

 

Naturally

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

@OP:

You have a great force assembled in that pic. Don´t sell it and play Oldhammer instead like all other proper grognards. Gee-Dubbs want you to feel bad about your army so that you fall into the trap of buying an entire SM force in Primaris scale again. Don´t let yourself be scammed in that way. Be clever and play Oldhammer.

[TheArtilleryman]

1 hour ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

@OP:

You have a great force assembled in that pic. Don´t sell it and play Oldhammer instead like all other proper grognards. Gee-Dubbs want you to feel bad about your army so that you fall into the trap of buying an entire SM force in Primaris scale again. Don´t let yourself be scammed in that way. Be clever and play Oldhammer.

Thanks man! Definitely decided now not to sell based on people’s opinions here. Now thinking about whether to convert some to heresy… would definitely save having to acquire tons of new stuff if I could re-use the vehicles.

 

Edit: also kudos for using the word “grognard” 

Edited December 16, 2023 by TheArtilleryman

[Galron]

As a HH player I would say go for it. We are happy to just have more HH players!

[Brother Christopher]

@TheArtilleryman I'm glad that you've decided not to sell this force. As others said, it's apparent that you've put a lot of effort into these models and this is something you can't put a price tag on. It's okay to be frustrated, have doubts about the practicality of keeping an older army but it's also okay to be sentimental, especially with projects that you've clearly been passionate about. This, I think, is the biggest wrongdoing GW committed: gaslighting people. Making people feel that there's something 'wrong' with the collection on the basis that the newer kits are bigger and better and the older ones are worse by comparison. They've messed up the scale of their system (especially considering how long it takes them to release new armies; think about how tiny Grey Knights are or how inadequate Custodes are in relation to Primaris) but, I guess, it works well for them since people like and will buy bigger, 'cooler,' models.

 

From my experience, you'll probably change your mind a couple of times with regard to how to use the models you have. These changes will probably be dictated by the ever-changing gaming framework. Be ready for that.

 

What Orange Knight suggested is probably the prudent, logical thing to do. However, with my limited time and general experience with 40k, I cannot agree with his let-the-old-die attitude; that's why, my advice is don't sell these: don't care about the size-by-comparison issue, adapt to the fluctuating rules environment and treat these models as tools for gaming. And most importantly, don't let external factors affect your enjoyment and pride of these models.

 

Provided that you're not a tournament player, using them for HH is absolutely fine but so is proxying them as currently-supported Primaris marines or not caring about proper-WYSWIG. And there's OnePageRules that seems to be a pretty cool system which will support basically any loadout!

 

Remember that at some point you made an effort to get the models 'right' and it's not your fault that GW invalidated them. In my opinion, if there's someone to blame, it's GW for being anti-consumer. In an edition or two, the models that you'll have will be completely usable the same way 2nd edition Marines have been for years.

 

And on an even more personal note: I'm in a similar situation, being stuck with a large Firstborn army, and it's very nice to see people struggling with the same issues ;)

 

Similarly to you, I've just recently finished some scouts who waited for their turn something like 4-5 years.

 

Spoiler

 

EDIT: And on the absolute upside, remember that you have usable game pieces for a fraction of their or their equivalent's current price.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Brother Christopher

[TheArtilleryman]

1 hour ago, Brother Christopher said:

@TheArtilleryman I'm glad that you've decided not to sell this force. As others said, it's apparent that you've put a lot of effort into these models and this is something you can't put a price tag on. It's okay to be frustrated, have doubts about the practicality of keeping an older army but it's also okay to be sentimental, especially with projects that you've clearly been passionate about. This, I think, is the biggest wrongdoing GW committed: gaslighting people. Making people feel that there's something 'wrong' with the collection on the basis that the newer kits are bigger and better and the older ones are worse by comparison. They've messed up the scale of their system (especially considering how long it takes them to release new armies; think about how tiny Grey Knights are or how inadequate Custodes are in relation to Primaris) but, I guess, it works well for them since people like and will buy bigger, 'cooler,' models.

 

From my experience, you'll probably change your mind a couple of times with regard to how to use the models you have. These changes will probably be dictated by the ever-changing gaming framework. Be ready for that.

 

What Orange Knight suggested is probably the prudent, logical thing to do. However, with my limited time and general experience with 40k, I cannot agree with his let-the-old-die attitude; that's why, my advice is don't sell these: don't care about the size-by-comparison issue, adapt to the fluctuating rules environment and treat these models as tools for gaming. And most importantly, don't let external factors affect your enjoyment and pride of these models.

 

Provided that you're not a tournament player, using them for HH is absolutely fine but so is proxying them as currently-supported Primaris marines or not caring about proper-WYSWIG. And there's OnePageRules that seems to be a pretty cool system which will support basically any loadout!

 

Remember that at some point you made an effort to get the models 'right' and it's not your fault that GW invalidated them. In my opinion, if there's someone to blame, it's GW for being anti-consumer. In an edition or two, the models that you'll have will be completely usable the same way 2nd edition Marines have been for years.

 

And on an even more personal note: I'm in a similar situation, being stuck with a large Firstborn army, and it's very nice to see people struggling with the same issues ;)

 

Similarly to you, I've just recently finished some scouts who waited for their turn something like 4-5 years.

 

  Hide contents

 

EDIT: And on the absolute upside, remember that you have usable game pieces for a fraction of their or their equivalent's current price.

Thanks for the long and thoughtful reply, and nice scouts!!
 

I think there are a lot of people out there like us right now. Local to me there is a shop that buys and sells tons of second hand Warhammer models. Before I wrote this thread I asked the owner what he would give me for the army and he said he couldn’t even buy it. He had about a chapter’s worth of firstborn already on the shelves and said that was barely a tenth of his stock because everyone wants primaris.

 

One of the best things about working with firstborn is the kitbashing possibilities. If you have a whole bunch of old guys the options are massive. This for me is one of their main attractions. GW have made the Primaris guys, and even the Age of Darkness marines, more difficult to kitbash, which is a massive shame.
 

Since writing, this thread and people’s engagement with it has reignited my interest in this army. Firstly remodelling the scouts made me finish painting them. Then having to convert a razorback to a rhino has given me a spare razorback, so I’ve paint-stripped a bunch of the models I sacrificed to my kids years ago and built another devastator squad to ride in it, along with the three bikers I also paint-stripped. Aaaand I’ve got to repaint the land raider to fit in.
 

Only problem is I’ve now increased my leadweight by about 21 lol …

Edited December 21, 2023 by TheArtilleryman

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

Those are some wonderfully painted models. 

 

I can't speak for others but in my area people have no problem with 40k tanks in HH or vice versa. 

 

I'm glad you aren't selling them. The Firstborn kits still look rock solid and the tracked tanks will always be cooler and more warhammery than the Cawl's floating boxes. 

[TheArtilleryman]

3 hours ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

Those are some wonderfully painted models. 

 

I can't speak for others but in my area people have no problem with 40k tanks in HH or vice versa. 

 

I'm glad you aren't selling them. The Firstborn kits still look rock solid and the tracked tanks will always be cooler and more warhammery than the Cawl's floating boxes. 

Thanks for this. I appreciate the comments RE: the painting. They really are done very simply, basically just a few drybrushing layers and a white highlight. I’m glad people like them.
 

I’ve been doing a bit more research on this myself and I think understand correctly that the 40K rhinos are the Mars pattern, which were apparently not as good as the Deimos pattern but were easier to make. Apparently they were around during the heresy too, so they aren’t just proxies, they are legit lore-wise.

 

I'll keep them in my colours for now, as I’ve not made any decisions about starting HH yet. Good to know they are useable though.

 

Also, I agree 100% about the tanks. I much prefer the tracked kind and am not keen on the repulsor type.

Edited January 7 by TheArtilleryman

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

@TheArtilleryman I saw a Repulsor in person at my local GW recently and in the flesh, with a darker colour scheme, it looks...okay. But I can't ever see it being as cool as the classics. To my mind Space Marine tanks just shouldn't float. 

 

Yep, that's correct. Mars & Demios patterns with the latter more advanced. I'm hoping that in future editions of HH maybe we will see proper 40k tanks (Rhino/Predator/Land Raider) get updated kits and released as 'Mars Pattern Predator' or something. The current kits are still really good but they are starting to age. 

 

I like your kitbashed Lieutenant. I had a bunch of bits left over and put four together last week to make use of my spares. 

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

I echo the sentiment of others in this thread about enjoying your models and not letting external factors get to you. Enjoy the hobby the way you want with what makes you happy. 

[TheArtilleryman]

1 hour ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

@TheArtilleryman I saw a Repulsor in person at my local GW recently and in the flesh, with a darker colour scheme, it looks...okay. But I can't ever see it being as cool as the classics. To my mind Space Marine tanks just shouldn't float. 

 

Yep, that's correct. Mars & Demios patterns with the latter more advanced. I'm hoping that in future editions of HH maybe we will see proper 40k tanks (Rhino/Predator/Land Raider) get updated kits and released as 'Mars Pattern Predator' or something. The current kits are still really good but they are starting to age. 

 

I like your kitbashed Lieutenant. I had a bunch of bits left over and put four together last week to make use of my spares. 

Thank you. I like to make all my characters individual these days. The librarian and captain in this army are bespoke too:

 

 

Captain made from a combination of sanguinary guard and sternguard with a metal jump pack. I bought both those kits years ago specifically for the parts.

 

 

Librarian made from about six different kits including grey knights. 

 

When you look at the new tanks from above they look really nice. You can pretend they are on tracks :) There are some great pictures like this on @drakheart’s blog:

 

 

Not only does his scheme look great the tanks look awesome photographed from this angle.

[DemonGSides]

Yeah new primaris stuff looks awesome. I would prefer tracks, but the silhouette is pretty menacing, especially on repulsors.

 

Great paint job all around!

[TheArtilleryman]

37 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Yeah new primaris stuff looks awesome. I would prefer tracks, but the silhouette is pretty menacing, especially on repulsors.

 

Great paint job all around!

Just want to clarify again those green tanks aren’t mine, they are Drakheart’s: 

I don’t want anyone to think I’m taking credit …

Edited January 10 by TheArtilleryman

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

@TheArtilleryman Those are some great kitbashes. That is a fun thing to do. I made several kitbashed Captains myself. 

 

Drakhheart's scheme looks very imposing, very menacing.