Firstborn dilemma

[TheArtilleryman]

OMG just realised Sternguard have tacticus keyword in this stupid edition so can’t ride in  razorbacks…  

Edited February 22 by TheArtilleryman

[Brother Christopher]

Yeah, I've been there at the start of the Edition. These rules are not for old men and their transports named after animals

 

While Razorback appear to be more than decent, their utility as transports is extremely limited.

 

Remember that you can always ask your opponent and use them as Impulsors.

[DemonGSides]

Yeah I don't see why they won't let Tacticus into the rhino chassis. I see no strategical reason why it's broken so that means it's probably financial and that's some total crap. 

[chapter master 454]

because then primaris would finally have a good transport and GW can't allow that

[Tacitus]

37 minutes ago, chapter master 454 said:

because then primaris would finally have a good transport and GW can't allow that

The difference between Razorbacks and Impulsors is pretty small.  Razorback is FD0, Impulsor is FD6  so Transport 6, and Twin HB or Transport 6 and 5 (Half a Desolator)Desolator, Hellblasters etc. 

[Helias_Tancred]

On 11/29/2023 at 7:59 AM, TheArtilleryman said:

OK, so I am really torn on this issue and wondered if I could see what people here think.

I have this firstborn army, painted as my own custom chapter, the Winged Lancers (totally not Kislev copyright infringment!!). Here it is in all its glory:

 

 

I also have some scouts, not in the main picture:

 

 

 

This was designed as a fast moving, mechanised army, with all the infantry in squads of 6 and mounted in Razorbacks. I absolutely loved putting this force together, especially the custom character kitbashes.

 

Thing is, now I have some issues.

1. 10th has invalidated this list.

2. Tactical squads are now only allowed in squads of 10, and not even 5s are allowed.

3. I can’t help feeling that firstborn are tiny, even compared to guardsmen, now that Primaris are the big thing.

4. I can’t proxy the squads as primaris because primaris can’t ride in Razorbacks and aren’t allowed special weapons.

5. Edit: They’ve removed the assault cannon option for Razorbacks.

6. They’ve removed the combi-weapon option for jump captains.

7. Sniper scout squads are no longer allowed.

 

I am also always looking for funds to support my other projects (Tau, Guard, Raven Guard) and am limited on storage.

 

However, as an army I still feel like it looks cool and so parting with it will be hard.

 

What would you do? Sell it? If so, what would be a reasonable price? Ot would you rework the list? I could build 1 x 10 man tac squad as one Razorback is convertible to a Rhino. But then I’d have a spare transport. I’ve also thought about repainting the Stormtalon for my Raven Guard, but I like it so I keep putting that off.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I'll go down and address it point by point and then give you my summary. 

 

If you're playing friendly games with friends, then by proxy and just a friendly agreement on rules for your army you can keep playing it. Yeah the primaris range makes the firstborn, especially older firstborn look tiny. It does sorta take some enjoyment away from them.

 

#4 is one of those issues that effects your overall solution to this dilemma.  Again #5 goes back to my above comments. For example I personally wouldn't care if you ran it as an assault cannon in a friendly game? Same for your jump captain and his combo-weapon. Friendly game with friends, shouldn't be a big issue. If you still have the stats for sniper scouts again ... in a friendly game, OR proxy them as Eliminators?

 

Summary: Keeping it as is you are definitely limited in playing it based on the game situation. Going forward you have to decide whether you want to continue this army but as valid primaris units, or keep it as a firstborn army that has limited windows of opportunity for play? When it comes to money, you also need to consider this situation versus your other projects. For example of this army means a lot to you and you want to continue it into new models then you prioritize this over your other projects so you can financially afford to make it rules current.

 

So you really have two choices in one here. Do you keep it as is, or modernize it? And if you want to do the latter it sounds like it will require you to put your limited resources into this and pause the other stuff.

 

I hope that helped? Good luck!

 

[TheArtilleryman]

The razorback thing has really annoyed me tbh. I had sorted the army all out in my head and I am definitely keeping it but had rearranged units to fit 10th. But the Sternguard suddenly deciding they don’t fit in their transport anymore is a real pain. Yeah I know I can pretend it’s an impulsor but that’s just annoying and a bit of a stretch. The assault squad are already being called jump intercessors and that’s not a big deal. 
 

Once again this whole primaris thing is a kick in the teeth. I like a lot of the new models in the range and even have some. I’m not hating on them or dragging up whether they should exist but the execution of the whole thing is very untidy and just not consumer friendly.

Edited February 23 by TheArtilleryman

[Brother Christopher]

26 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Once again this whole primaris thing is a kick in the teeth. I like a lot of the new models in the range and even have some. I’m not hating on them or dragging up whether they should exist but the execution of the whole thing is very untidy and just not consumer friendly.

 

Amen. I mean, I feel your emotions. I've been there for way too long. However, luckily for me, the utterly rubbish release of 10th edition has rather successfully cured me. I've made the mistake of trusting GW and hoping for a nicer, more streamlined set of rules that would invite me back to playing 40K. At release, we got a messy product similar to the release of AAA video games; however, this product is bound to many physical things (miniatures, books, cards) and fixing it isn't as easy as releasing a digital patch.

 

I understand the frustration of sorting your army (the use for different models; the potential lists and synergies) only to discover that it's invalid or becomes invalid with the release of newer rules. But I don't think we should care about it, honestly. I've come to accept that I'm not GW target consumer. After all, it's clear that GW doesn't really care about hobbyists with existing collections of (painted) models. They target people who don't have models or need to buy more models.

 

With my other hobbies and life, the current landscape is unsustainable. Admitting that in an edition or two my old Space Marines will be proxies for the upscaled and rebranded version was very liberating. I hope that you'll come to terms with how badly GW supports their older products in your own way, too.

 

The saddest part is that we, as a community, send a clear signal to GW: we like bigger space marines and and your sales practices. And this exacerbates the problems that affect 40K (and 40K and GW is stricken with problems).

[TheArtilleryman]

One thing is, I never buy anything direct from GW these days anyway because of the prices. Sometimes I use FLGS sites if I’m getting new stuff for presents or whatever which I know funds GW but most of my stuff comes from eBay. So they don’t get much money from me.

 

In terms of marines what I’m looking for now is ways to beat the system. I’m planning on building a HH force this year (looking for a cheap eBay deal on AoD) but I really didn’t feel that starting another SM army was justified as I already have this one and the Raven Guard I started last year and posted about in other threads. Therefore I will be looking to double up as many models as possible for my 40k Raven Guard. Plasma tactical support squads will be hellblasters, melta/multimelta models will become eradicators, an assault squad will be jump intercessors, praetor will be a captain etc. I’m going to nick a couple of rhinos from this army to use for that one and I’ve already converted my land raider to RG for that purpose. There will be models at both ends that can’t be proxied but there will be a large core that can play in both systems. Because the AoD marines are so much taller, they won’t look so out of place, especially up against Phobos marines with beaky heads. I may even add some tacticool base stuff to raise them up a little further.

 

Also realised that grey knights can still take assault cannon razorbacks so that’s another option I’m considering as I have a small grey knights force. That’s probably the last option however as that’s not an army I have plans to expand right now.

I also have my guard and t’au projects which are blissfully unaffected by all of this and they’ve been getting a lot of attention this year too. There are so many cheap boxes of guard around if you’re quick enough - just this week I picked up a Leman Russ, Chimera and 20 infantry all still on sprues for 40 quid which will take my guard up to well over 2000 points now. Now that is an army I feel really good about atm.

Edited February 23 by TheArtilleryman

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

One thing is, I never buy anything direct from GW these days anyway because of the prices. Sometimes I use FLGS sites if I’m getting new stuff for presents or whatever which I know funds GW but most of my stuff comes from eBay. So they don’t get much money from me.

 

In terms of marines what I’m looking for now is ways to beat the system. I’m planning on building a HH force this year (looking for a cheap eBay deal on AoD) but I really didn’t feel that starting another SM army was justified as I already have this one and the Raven Guard I started last year and posted about in other threads. Therefore I will be looking to double up as many models as possible for my 40k Raven Guard. Plasma tactical support squads will be hellblasters, melta/multimelta models will become eradicators, an assault squad will be jump intercessors, praetor will be a captain etc. I’m going to nick a couple of rhinos from this army to use for that one and I’ve already converted my land raider to RG for that purpose. There will be models at both ends that can’t be proxied but there will be a large core that can play in both systems. Because the AoD marines are so much taller, they won’t look so out of place, especially up against Phobos marines with beaky heads. I may even add some tacticool base stuff to raise them up a little further.

 

Also realised that grey knights can still take assault cannon razorbacks so that’s another option I’m considering as I have a small grey knights force. That’s probably the last option however as that’s not an army I have plans to expand right now.

I also have my guard and t’au projects which are blissfully unaffected by all of this and they’ve been getting a lot of attention this year too. There are so many cheap boxes of guard around if you’re quick enough - just this week I picked up a Leman Russ, Chimera and 20 infantry all still on sprues for 40 quid which will take my guard up to well over 2000 points now. Now that is an army I feel really good about atm.

Ebay or Amazon, GW already got it's money, they're just not getting the MSRP profit markup on top of their "wholesaler" markup - but that said the Brick and Mortar's selling backstock on Amazon or Ebay has been nice to me.   The rest of it I get though. I have UM, so while I started some DA, its (almost) all DW/RW because UM is my "green wing". 

[TheArtilleryman]

17 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Ebay or Amazon, GW already got it's money, they're just not getting the MSRP profit markup on top of their "wholesaler" markup

Exactly. And if someone has already bought it then they had that money anyway. If I went and bought it from GW then I’m adding new funds to their pocket.

 

I’ve been a Warhammer fan for almost thirty years and I would want to support GW directly but they have priced themselves way out of the market for me.

 

Off topic I know but what would be good is if they actually had offers once in a while. I can remember (a very long time ago) around the time the first multi-part plastic tactical squad came out GW stores had a 3-for-2 event on box sets. There were queues all the way down the street for the Nottingham store that day. I don’t recall them ever doing anything like that before or since but they really should.

[chapter master 454]

10 hours ago, Tacitus said:

The difference between Razorbacks and Impulsors is pretty small.  Razorback is FD0, Impulsor is FD6  so Transport 6, and Twin HB or Transport 6 and 5 (Half a Desolator)Desolator, Hellblasters etc. 

 

But lo do I gesture not to the venerable razorback regarding such things, but to the venerable rhino. The reason said "good transport" is because Primaris don't actually have a transport that is meant for just that...transport...without having to spend 200 points on a gun boat that is with how current boards are at competitive tables (those that use the tournament circuit layouts) this is quite a major issue, moving such models around ruins just makes it so taking such things is a major drawback.

and I know. I am testing a double land raider list and you start to see how much these organisers HATE tanks. Seriously, their document about "accomendating most lists" is nonsense, they accommendated infantry lists HEAVILY and told anything that dares not be an infantry unit to die.

I digress.

 

Only saving grace with the Impulsor for me is it is one of the few primaris tanks I don't mind. Feels fairly reasonable for being grav and if I were talking solely between Impulsor and Razorback, I would really just admonish GW for having the Razorback being restricted on what it can take. But hey, we're getting rid of ALL of the old marine stuff in time so get ready I suppose...

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, chapter master 454 said:

 

But lo do I gesture not to the venerable razorback regarding such things, but to the venerable rhino. The reason said "good transport" is because Primaris don't actually have a transport that is meant for just that...transport...without having to spend 200 points on a gun boat that is with how current boards are at competitive tables (those that use the tournament circuit layouts) this is quite a major issue, moving such models around ruins just makes it so taking such things is a major drawback.

and I know. I am testing a double land raider list and you start to see how much these organisers HATE tanks. Seriously, their document about "accomendating most lists" is nonsense, they accommendated infantry lists HEAVILY and told anything that dares not be an infantry unit to die.

I digress.

 

Only saving grace with the Impulsor for me is it is one of the few primaris tanks I don't mind. Feels fairly reasonable for being grav and if I were talking solely between Impulsor and Razorback, I would really just admonish GW for having the Razorback being restricted on what it can take. But hey, we're getting rid of ALL of the old marine stuff in time so get ready I suppose...

That is a different and reasonable point - the fact that an Impulsor - or a new Rhino parallel - can't carry 10-12 (and that the Drop Pod didn't get a boost as well) is a problem in the new 5 or 10 price scheme.  Not having a Carry 10-12 APC vs IFV is something of a problem on it's own.  And we still have problems with terrain vs movement for non-flying vehicles.  Having enough terrain to avoid Planet Bowling Ball often means not having enough roads/paths for the bigger vehicles. 

 

Looking at the sample battlefield on Page 49 of the rule book MAYBE that wall is less than 2" so vehicles can move over it without losing the movement rate they'd need to get over and past it - but its also possible/likely all the Monsters and Vehicles have to all take the long way around the far side of the battle field to get around the wall. 

 

Did some Checking - that particular wall is shorter than an Intercessor, which is shorter than a Deathwing Knight which I just measured at about 2" - So GW is building their terrain such that in the current ruleset vehicles (All Models) can drive over their walls without losing movement for the Up-Over-And-Down part.  Homemade Terrain is - homemade and may vary.  And I may have missed a FAQ, Rule, or Rule Commentary modifying a rule.

 

We have several GW manufactured problems converging here -

 

1)Vehicles were bad for a long time and still aren't necessarily good unless on GW terrain. 

Solution:  GW continues making and/or "defining" terrain to be built like theirs for their ruleset that in turn is based on their terrain/etc and the players/TO's/etc build tables with that in mind.

 

2)The Primaris Project STILL isn't finished and needs to get wrapped up soon.

Solution: GW bites the bullet knowing they're going to get complaints with a big SM release - but they do it anyway - and finially finish out the Primaris line - Vanguard Vets, Assault Terminators, Rhino-Replacement,  ALL the missing HQs, Lascannon Dev Squad, etc.

[Helias_Tancred]

18 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

One thing is, I never buy anything direct from GW these days anyway because of the prices. Sometimes I use FLGS sites if I’m getting new stuff for presents or whatever which I know funds GW but most of my stuff comes from eBay. So they don’t get much money from me.

 

 

Strangely most of the FLGS in my area don't offer a discount. Maybe they're just LGS and not FLGS? lol. I tend to support one of them primarily, every once in while go to the GW store, but mostly I buy from Amazon, or like you mentioned, eBay.

 

[TheArtilleryman]

4 hours ago, Helias_Tancred said:

 

Strangely most of the FLGS in my area don't offer a discount. Maybe they're just LGS and not FLGS? lol. I tend to support one of them primarily, every once in while go to the GW store, but mostly I buy from Amazon, or like you mentioned, eBay.

 

I tend to use my actual FLGS mostly for paints and other hobby supplies, especially aerosols. It never seems to be worth buying paints online unless you’re buying a whole load at once because the shipping wipes out any small discount. They just have a 10% discount on models so I still don’t tend to buy these from there unless I can’t find something anywhere else.

 

There is another store in the neighbouring town that sells tons of used models, so that one is also nice. It’s a bit of a lottery what they have available though. 
 

Online, Wayland Games is the obvious one but there have been a lot more springing up recently like The Warp and Alchemist’s Workshops. All these have the 20% discount. EBay is the best source though but you sometimes have to play that game of refreshing the “newly listed” list and buying quick when you see what you want at a good price. If the price is very good it will go extremely fast as there are people who literally sit there all day hitting F5 and buy up the bargains to resell.

[Tacitus]

18 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

I tend to use my actual FLGS mostly for paints and other hobby supplies, especially aerosols. It never seems to be worth buying paints online unless you’re buying a whole load at once because the shipping wipes out any small discount. They just have a 10% discount on models so I still don’t tend to buy these from there unless I can’t find something anywhere else.

 

There is another store in the neighbouring town that sells tons of used models, so that one is also nice. It’s a bit of a lottery what they have available though. 
 

Online, Wayland Games is the obvious one but there have been a lot more springing up recently like The Warp and Alchemist’s Workshops. All these have the 20% discount. EBay is the best source though but you sometimes have to play that game of refreshing the “newly listed” list and buying quick when you see what you want at a good price. If the price is very good it will go extremely fast as there are people who literally sit there all day hitting F5 and buy up the bargains to resell.

I primarily use the Vallejo Game Air, and that works off Amazon pretty well usually.  I like their UM Blue better than any of the GW Blues for example, but metallics I usually still get from GW. 

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

I have six Razorbacks, one with a twin Assault Cannon, another with the Lascannon & twin Plasma Gun. A classic model mistreated by GW.

 

It sucks how GW does things, clearly they want to push Primaris vehicles. I think most people though, at least outside tournaments, would be okay with you proxying them as Impulsors though. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

It is a shame the Impulsir doesn't come with the option of an enclosed deck and a heavier weapon to function as a proper Razorback replacement. It sucks even more there is no Primaris version of the Rhino. I want to transport ten Astartes GW and I want to do it cheaply, not with a 300 point gunboat.  

[Marshal Reinhard]

I just want them to release a new proper 40k era land raider. It's the only ride that makes sense for my terminators.

[Tacitus]

6 hours ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

I have six Razorbacks, one with a twin Assault Cannon, another with the Lascannon & twin Plasma Gun. A classic model mistreated by GW.

 

It sucks how GW does things, clearly they want to push Primaris vehicles. I think most people though, at least outside tournaments, would be okay with you proxying them as Impulsors though. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

It is a shame the Impulsir doesn't come with the option of an enclosed deck and a heavier weapon to function as a proper Razorback replacement. It sucks even more there is no Primaris version of the Rhino. I want to transport ten Astartes GW and I want to do it cheaply, not with a 300 point gunboat.  

It does have weapon options - and doesn't really need to enclose the deck as its not OPEN-TOPPED and OPEN-TOPPED doesn't do anything anyway, its got Firing Deck 6 so the models inside get to shoot, AND the Impulsor eats mortals for the HAZARDOUS which can be Techmarine Healed. 5 Hellblasters and a Techmarine is a pretty obvious choice for Impulsor units.  I think the Impulsor was designed to replace all the Rhino VARIANTS (Razorback, Hunter/Stalker, Vindicator) but not the Rhino itself.  I also think you can see the first attempts to reduce lethality (Or they got "lucky" while trying to tax the gun + Transport) as none of the Impulsor Tops were as good as the Rhino Variants

[TheArtilleryman]

I have no problem with primaris units only being able to use the new transports, because the firstborn and primaris units could just be kept separate.

 

What has annoyed me so much here is that a unit that quite happily used the razorback for millennia (Sternguard) has suddenly decided it’s no good anymore. “Oh no lads, we’re biggerer now, we can’t use that thing, it’s for plebs!”
 

On the land raider, I don’t think it needs changing. There are already several variants and it is already big to match the new vehicles. It’s been able to carry any type of marine since the start of primaris so it doesn’t look like it’s going anywhere.

Edited February 27 by TheArtilleryman

[chapter master 454]

In terms of the the OG tanks for marines (Land Raider, Predator, Rhino, Razorback, Vindicator and Whirlwind) you know GW are incredibly annoyed at reception of the Gladiators and Repulsors, as lets be frank in that those two chassis were meant to replace the old with the Repulsor trying to replace the Land Raider (and failing hilariously hard) and the Gladiators trying to replace the Predators (and in some fashion barely managing imo). Oh and the Storm Speeder where they managed to outright NUKE the Land Speeder from existence, just pointing that out.

The Impulsor funny enough slips by because it does fill a unique niche in this concept of being a fast transport designed to get a smaller squad somewhere fast, but also can act as a funny gun-boat by sticking various squads inside...unless you are eradicators but regardless, 5 flamers or a host of Missile Launchers can be fun.

 

Why did the Repulsors fail? The first one failed because it had all bulk and no bite, only taken because Primaris back at launch had mass hellblaster formations to deal with armour. It actually barely had passable capacity but lacked any reason to get close, comically like the original land raider but the later compensated you with a special unit for engaging and getting work done...the repulsor I believe only ever has had defensive based abilities that are at best cute gimmicks.

The Executioner variant then came along before getting outshone by the Gladiators. Just a worse repulsor in all regards.

Effectively, both variants of the repulsor had the same issue: ether 1 or no main gun(s). Compared to even the Crusader, each Land Raider carries 3 weapon systems that each can be considered main armaments in their own right. Even Hurricane Bolters are pretty fierce considering each sponson is 12 shots when in close with re-rolls to wound (which offsets the lower strength). It just gets worse for the Respulsors as we compare other land raider variants of the Redeemer and Phobos, where Flamestorms are just INSANE value and being within range of them is a death sentence for most things while the Godhammers compete far better than the Laser Destroyer imo alongside the fact even the Phobos has a carry cap of 12 vs. the Executioners meagre 6...you can barely fit a 5 man squad in there with character. Land Raiders? I'm running around with them having centurions inside with space for extra characters or even small units to hop inside for cover even with the fat boys inside.

Oh and the Repulsor chassis is an apt name in my opinion...it looks repulsive as all get out.

 

You then pair that with legacy. Land Raiders and Predators are iconic tanks of the space marines, the Rhino and Razorback their iconic transports. So far only the Land Speeder has taken as L there however...I consider that more because their models were a nightmare to build and only the most die hard Dark Angels and Dark Angels but in white with funny lightning symbol had them really.

Not easy to squat the old when people still like them so much and the new isn't exactly seeing outright success except among the sweat-tier players. And even then, Gladiators aren't really top tier. They are good but considering only the Laser Destroyer one is current hotness if at all, hard for them try and push harder.

Honestly, I still look at these kits and think: "What if that kit was instead an updated Land Raider with new weapon options like Plasma cannons or Missile racks?" "What if that was an updated predator"...seriously...it hurts because the fumble is just so tragic for all parties.

 

Still...enjoying my fat boys ever since I came back at the end of 7th. They look derpy but it love them all the more for it. Some may hate them, but if that crowd says grav-plates look cool, then my extra thicc marines are good to go too!

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

I have no problem with primaris units only being able to use the new transports, because the firstborn and primaris units could just be kept separate.

 

What has annoyed me so much here is that a unit that quite happily used the razorback for millennia (Sternguard) has suddenly decided it’s no good anymore. “Oh no lads, we’re biggerer now, we can’t use that thing, it’s for plebs!”
 

On the land raider, I don’t think it needs changing. There are already several variants and it is already big to match the new vehicles. It’s been able to carry any type of marine since the start of primaris so it doesn’t look like it’s going anywhere.

Oh the segregation has been ridiculous for a while.  Pick a Chapter Master that's crossed the Rubicon.  Now imagine some young reserve company driver telling them they can't ride in the Rhino.   Or in previous editions - the Land Raider. 

[Tacitus]

4 hours ago, chapter master 454 said:

In terms of the the OG tanks for marines (Land Raider, Predator, Rhino, Razorback, Vindicator and Whirlwind) you know GW are incredibly annoyed at reception of the Gladiators and Repulsors, as lets be frank in that those two chassis were meant to replace the old with the Repulsor trying to replace the Land Raider (and failing hilariously hard) and the Gladiators trying to replace the Predators (and in some fashion barely managing imo). Oh and the Storm Speeder where they managed to outright NUKE the Land Speeder from existence, just pointing that out.

The Impulsor funny enough slips by because it does fill a unique niche in this concept of being a fast transport designed to get a smaller squad somewhere fast, but also can act as a funny gun-boat by sticking various squads inside...unless you are eradicators but regardless, 5 flamers or a host of Missile Launchers can be fun.

 

Why did the Repulsors fail? The first one failed because it had all bulk and no bite, only taken because Primaris back at launch had mass hellblaster formations to deal with armour. It actually barely had passable capacity but lacked any reason to get close, comically like the original land raider but the later compensated you with a special unit for engaging and getting work done...the repulsor I believe only ever has had defensive based abilities that are at best cute gimmicks.

The Executioner variant then came along before getting outshone by the Gladiators. Just a worse repulsor in all regards.

Effectively, both variants of the repulsor had the same issue: ether 1 or no main gun(s). Compared to even the Crusader, each Land Raider carries 3 weapon systems that each can be considered main armaments in their own right. Even Hurricane Bolters are pretty fierce considering each sponson is 12 shots when in close with re-rolls to wound (which offsets the lower strength). It just gets worse for the Respulsors as we compare other land raider variants of the Redeemer and Phobos, where Flamestorms are just INSANE value and being within range of them is a death sentence for most things while the Godhammers compete far better than the Laser Destroyer imo alongside the fact even the Phobos has a carry cap of 12 vs. the Executioners meagre 6...you can barely fit a 5 man squad in there with character. Land Raiders? I'm running around with them having centurions inside with space for extra characters or even small units to hop inside for cover even with the fat boys inside.

Oh and the Repulsor chassis is an apt name in my opinion...it looks repulsive as all get out.

Meh, I'd say the Repulsor and Gladiator failed more because Vehicles were bad when they released not anything specific to the vehicles themselves.  Nobody was taking Land Raiders back then either.  The problem with the Repulsors is the same problem with the Impulsor - which will hopefully rectify itself sooner or later.  They don't carry enough.  The Impulsor is fairly obviously a replacement for all the variants - the Icarus top = Hunter/Stalker, the Comms top = Vindicator, The missile top = Whirlwind, etc. But there isn't a carry 12 (i.e. 10 + 2 Leaders) top.   If you want to carry 10, you still have to go to the Repulsor (Or the Land Raiders).  Thankfully the Repulsor is up to 12, but that's still not enough for 6 Aggressors and a Leader (or two) so you can't transport the Aggressor Bomb of a Gravis Cap, Biologis, and 6 Aggressors.  This is even more annoying this edition because you pay the same for 4 aggressors that you do for 6.   

 

Basically GW is still making Transporting Suck.  The only "Transport" that's gotten much play the last several editions is the Drop Pod, and it's not REALLY a Transport.  Its better described as a Deep Strike Fortification that then gives Deep Strike in disembarkation range to its "contents".  There is no real "transporting" going on there.   Instead of a movable Rhino you can pay slightly less for a Deep Striking Ignore-Me-Fall Bunker that lets up to 10 models deep strike next to it on 3 out of 4 table quarters. 

 

Quote

You then pair that with legacy. Land Raiders and Predators are iconic tanks of the space marines, the Rhino and Razorback their iconic transports. So far only the Land Speeder has taken as L there however...I consider that more because their models were a nightmare to build and only the most die hard Dark Angels and Dark Angels but in white with funny lightning symbol had them really.

Not easy to squat the old when people still like them so much and the new isn't exactly seeing outright success except among the sweat-tier players. And even then, Gladiators aren't really top tier. They are good but considering only the Laser Destroyer one is current hotness if at all, hard for them try and push harder.

Honestly, I still look at these kits and think: "What if that kit was instead an updated Land Raider with new weapon options like Plasma cannons or Missile racks?" "What if that was an updated predator"...seriously...it hurts because the fumble is just so tragic for all parties.

 

Still...enjoying my fat boys ever since I came back at the end of 7th. They look derpy but it love them all the more for it. Some may hate them, but if that crowd says grav-plates look cool, then my extra thicc marines are good to go too!

The landspeeder was destined to take the L.  Its not hard to argue the new ones are better.  They're bigger, they're tougher, they used to be shootier.  And they win on a point-for-point analysis.  The HB/AC Tornado vs the Stormspeeder Hailstrike isn't really arguable.   Gladiator vs Predator is much more of a wash.  The Lancer probably edges out the Annihilator and I'd take it unless I absoslutely had to shave the points difference between them, but I wouldn't think twice about it if I had to.  The Reaper vs the Destructor is much harder to pick due to noticably different threat bands - but between twin linking the Turret Twin Heavy Onslaughts (which can be gotten elsewhere easier), and the fewer but bigger oomph of the Autocannon I'm not nearly as tempted by the Reaper.  And the Valiant is just too mixed up.  Meltas and Lastalons - it doesn't know what it wants to be, or how far away. 

[TheArtilleryman]

OK. I've pledged all my T'au for the March for March and the 12 Months of Hobby. It's halfway through the month of March and I am nowhere near where I need to be on that project.

 

Which means it's the perfect time for some shameless procrastination and finally getting around to sorting out my firstborn Winged Lancers, which I have pledged absolutely nowhere!

 

Thanks to all the incredibly positive comments on here, I have brought myself to the conclusion that I will not be selling any of the army, and on top of that I won't be repainting any for the Raven Guard either. I did a bit of fiddling about with the 40k app and worked out that it only needed a couple of bits to make it a full-on 2000 point force. So here we go!

 

A few weeks back I paint-stripped this little lot, which used to be in the box of horrors (AKA the box of stuff I let my kids ruin - I mean paint beautifully -  many years ago). Over the last 24 hours I have managed to get around to painting them up for the Winged Lancers!

 

 

They are by no means my best work, especially the bikes, but they are painted. And that, I am increasingly telling myself these days, is good enough! The bikes will proxy as outriders and I will pretend that guy doesn't really have a plasma gun!

 

Next, I sorted out the two razorbacks that had the capacity to be converted into rhinos:

 

 

 

Good thing here is they can be used as either! I was able to change one of them to have twin heavy bolters, whilst the other has to stay as assault cannons. It's unlikely it will get used but if it ever does, I have the legends datasheet.

 

I now have two full tactical squads, instead of the sixes I originally had, mounted in rhinos:

 

 

As these guys are a Raven Guard successor, you'll find quite a few beaky heads in there as I made a point of using every one I could find over the years.

 

Remember the kitbashed lieutenant? Well here he is:

 

 

 

I also had to change around some of the squad and vehicle markings.

 

Sternguard and devastators (squad sizes reduced from 6 to 5) are still mounted in razorbacks. These ones can't be converted to rhinos because the top plates are stuck fast:

 

 

I know the sternguard can't be mounted in the razorback anymore, but my main opponent (my son) won't care and if I want to use the army against someone else who is awkward, then I will just split one of the tactical squads in two and assign the razorback to them. I do have another spare beaky marine with a heavy bolter which I will paint up at some point and swap for the grav-gun guy.

 

My trio of unique kitbashed characters:

 

 

Metal assault squad (probably the oldest unit in the army), which will be proxied as 2 x 5 jump pack intercessors, supported by the vindicator:

 

 

Whirlwind and stormtalon providing fire support:

 

 

Looks like I've run out of space in this post, so I'll do another with the final pictures.

 

Edited March 18 by TheArtilleryman

[TheArtilleryman]

My converted scouts with now-legal weapons:

 

 

And a couple of shots of the whole army:

 

 

 

The total points cost, without any enhancements, is now exactly 2000 points according to the app. So fingers crossed they don't jack any points costs up!!! This is my only completed army of 2000 points (technically my guard will be more than that but they aren't all done, so these guys are the first to cross the finish line).

 

Thank you so much to everyone who has commented in this thread. I've remembered just how much I enjoy working with this force and how much I like the way they look on display. I'm going to keep them just as they are and enjoy the work I put in. Cheers all!

Edited March 17 by TheArtilleryman