Strategy - equipping your Kratos tanks

[Captain Idaho]

I've been thinking of this one simply because it does have some long term effects regarding our modelling (and thus costs) yet there are strategic implications to consider.

 

I created this repository of our accumulated knowledge and experience to act as a guide and reference point for us all!

 

So onto the subject:

 

Equipping your Kratos

 

The types of builds for our Kratos aren't just applicable based on a whim if we want true efficiency. And as an Ultramarines fan, that's top consideration for me.

 

Starting on the turret weapon, we have to consider whether we want the Kratos battle cannon or melta blastgun. The melta blastgun, for all its power and utility of being able to destroy stuff and tank out buildings, just won't help you against most targets due to range.

 

However, we do need to kill the odd building and there's no Vindicators just yet. So the question is now, how many melta blastguns do we take? I'd say that also depends on some key factors.

 

Do you have lots of Infantry to assault buildings? Do you have plenty of ranged attacks to deal with vehicles and tough targets? How many Kratos vehicles do you have and what's your army composition?

 

Lots to consider. If you have plenty of Infantry to attack buildings full of enemy then do you need melta blastguns?

 

If you don't have smaller Kratos squadrons... don't take any melta blastguns. You likely won't need them more than firing at other targets. If you have loads of weapons that ignore cover, such as missile launcher Marines, you can consider dropping melta blastguns.

 

A pair of Kratos can be tasked with destroying buildings, but more than that and you're sacrificing your massed firepower.

 

Sponsons

 

The turret is less questionable compared to the other options. If you want some unusual strategy you could go massed melta blastguns and take out all buildings before you so enemy Infantry can't hide. A tank themed army would probably enjoy such things so you can blast the infantry in the open.

 

Moving onto the other weapons... do you want your Kratos specialised or able to do a bit of everything?

 

Again we need to consider the army build. If you have just a few Kratos you then likely want a couple Heavy Bolters and a couple lascannons per Kratos. If you suffer losses the Kratos still maintains flexibility, at reduced capacity, rather than one thing or the other.

 

However, I do NOT recommend pure Heavy bolters. Lascannons have a modifier and thus hurt the enemy well at range. Even Infantry as you hit on a 4+ compared to a Heavy Bolter's 5+ and if they are in buildings the modifier is irrelevant. 

 

Point defence is good to shift shots at Infantry whilst you use anti-tank weapons and turrets at harder targets. This will see a Kratos squadron doing some decent work around the clock. You can also Overwatch in a pinch but then you don't really want Kratos being charged.

 

Now, lascannons are good. I'd recommend at least 2 per Kratos and if you have say 4+ in a squadron, having half of the Kratos armed with all Lascannons is viable. They'll hurt something bad.

 

You also get to reside further away from the enemy which is desirable for such a firepower squadron like Kratos.

 

The autocannon... it's superior to the heavy bolters in every capacity except one crucial one - you can't fire at a different target thus your Kratos can't play games against nearby Infantry whilst shooting tanks at range.

 

However, accurate and 2 shots at increased range over heavy bolters, plus -1 against infantry, means you'll get some damage worked by a Kratos.

 

Leading with lascannons at range with perhaps a couple autocannons (2 per Kratos) can make for a reasonable ranged prospect. You will put hurt on Infantry and the autocannons still stand a chance against vehicles.

 

The lack of focus here is what hurts me though. A unit of 4 Kratos (or more) can afford to take some autocannons on a couple Kratos but remember when you take casualties you'll remove the tank with all lascannons last...

 

Remember, lascannons will still do well, at higher ranges to boot, against Infantry even in buildings. You just might not need the autocannons unless your opponent takes massed Terminators, but then he can't really hurt you at range anyway.

 

Maybe a long ranged Kratos squadron with a couple autocannons alongside the lascannons can put a lot of dice on anything and cause damage. This depends on whether you take a large amount of Infantry to oppose enemy Infantry for example. Ultimately I'd stick with the lascannons alongside a couple Heavy Bolters when you want generalism in your capacity.

 

The Role

 

What task you Kratos take on is crucial to armament only in part.

 

Apart from range and target preference, which is governed by your army build and capacity elsewhere as much as desired outcome for Kratos tanks, you have to consider whether this vehicle will operate in numbers and whether it'll be a front line attention taker or a longer ranged gun platform. 

 

Remember; it's a tank designed to shoot things. It wants to be a gun platform. So really it shouldn't be using its CAF unless strictly necessary. 

 

Being in the open in the centre field, a decent sized squadron can soak a lot of firepower at a distance and draw line of sight to ideal targets. That would be my go to. Even for small squadrons who might go round a flank.

 

Those are my initial thoughts on the Kratos in preparation for building Saturday. 

 

If anyone else would like to add comments or contest anything, even lightly or partially then I'm excited to read it - post below!

 

My build

 

4× Kratos

• 2 Kratos with battle cannon and 4 lascannons

• 2 Kratos with battle cannon, 2 lascannons and 2 heavy bolters

 

This build is designed to sit in the centre of the army and bombard the enemy, particularly tanks which are a threat to Space Marines generally. There's no melta blastguns as I intend to blast from a decent distance with plenty of Infantry in my army so it's just not needed and I'd rather the firepower at range.

 

Heavy bolters are just there as a just in case and for options. Lascannons will do the serious damage. 

[Black Cohort]

I think range and hit chance are going to matter more than basically any other factors the vast majority of the time unless you are hunting Titans or other targets with 3+ wounds and good saves.

 

That being said, I feel like point defense weapons will definitely have their place in lists since you can split fire and overwatch.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah for the most part I agree - lascannons rock.

 

That's why I'll only have a few heavy bolters in a Kratos squadron. 

[Kleomenes]

This post has really helped me think deeper about the options on the Kratos kit. I find myself getting paralysed with choice when planning how I'll be building LI models when they finally arrive. 

 

I think we'll find at least some point defence weapons in a squadron are very helpful in dense cityfights so I like the generalist build put forward in the OP. I think for a bunker buster build with the melta blastgun, you might want all heavy bolters though. The blastgun is so short ranged it seems like you're going to be right in the faces of lots of infantry and if you don't take down the building will be hugely vulnerable. Also, the mass of heavy bolters means that you can overwatch very effectively to mow down infantry that try to flee the building before you blow it. Its significant area denial.

 

Bunker Busters

 

2× Kratos

• 2 Kratos with melta blastgun, 4 heavy bolters 

 

What I'm wondering is when to take the autocannons. The only niche case I can see is to give a large Kratos unit the volume of fire to clear out any foe without compromising too much against any one foe. For a six Kratos hammer perhaps, a loadout like this: 

 

Flexible Hammer

 

6× Kratos

• 2 Kratos with battle cannon, 2 Kratos lascannons and 2 heavy bolter sponsons

• 4 Kratos with battle cannon, 2 lascannon sponsons and 2 Kratos Autocannons

 

I still think the unit may just be better with lascannons instead of autocannons given that heavy tanks are likely the big threat marines face. But this would do well against medium vehicles with the mass of fire. The kratos autocannons get a bit more out of the rerolls than the lascannons.  A 4 tank squadron needs at least 2 full lascannon tanks I feel to remain relevant as AT. 

[Black Cohort]

I think autocannons are not a good option on heavier tanks.  Lighter tanks that are already only hunting infantry or lighter armour they could be very useful.

[Cleon]

My view is autocannons are a future proofing option for fighting units that aren't out yet - I don't see any value in them against the day 1 roster, but maybe a blastgun, 2 autocannon, 2 hb kratos pair could have value nipping away speeders etc until it's time to swoop in.

[Captain Idaho]

On 11/30/2023 at 3:39 PM, Cleon said:

My view is autocannons are a future proofing option for fighting units that aren't out yet - I don't see any value in them against the day 1 roster, but maybe a blastgun, 2 autocannon, 2 hb kratos pair could have value nipping away speeders etc until it's time to swoop in.

 

Very possibly a future proofing thing. Massed infantry coming at you and you want to keep them at a distance etc.

 

We'll see what fast elements are out there. Maybe even rules that state "anti-tank is at -1 to hit" or "+2 jink save against anti-tank, titan weapons without point defence etc" so there are options for the autocannon.

 

At the moment, Lascannons are pretty good for Kratos and arguably Sicarans if you want to target fast moving things.

 

Interesting to consider the future eh.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think a quad heavy bolter and melta turret has some merit. The whole point of the turret is to kill buildings, which means you need to get close to where infantry are. The potential of overwatch can be a bit of a nightmare for some players, and getting it unmodified just adds to that fear. 

 

Otherwise, the autocannons aren't actually bad since they have accurate....but so do the lascannons. Once there's more stuff like speeders and jetbikes in the game, you'd probably feel pretty fine with autocannons on the hull, but until then las just reigns supreme.

[Matrindur]

For anyone interested I made a quick calculation sheet of the 6 currently available tanks against different targets:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hRkAM-fD9BahV3Lruv7CHhSE31Zd0j97V53xquYGkro/edit?usp=sharing

 

The background colours should help to differentiate between weapon options.

 

The numbers after the targets are their saves. 

For Knights the second number is the Ion Shield and its assumed its in effect, otherwise just look at the vehicle column as the Ion Shield is the only difference.

Same for Titans as the Void Shields are the only difference I didn't add them. If the Void shield is up you don't do damage anyway and if its down just look into the vehicle column.

 

 

A few interesting bits taken from this calculation and assuming that I didn't miss anything:

 

I can't see a setting I would take the Battlecannon Malcador. Its worse than the Lascannon against all targets by quite a big margin and the only advantage is 3" longer range. But if I want longer range I'd take the Vanquisher which has another 7" on top of that and is only slightly worse against infantry and better against everything else than the Battlecannon.

Also the Vanquisher is only better than the Lascannon against 2+ save vehicles and worse against Knights so I would only take it if I really need the range.

 

The Predator Lascannon also seems way better then the Predator cannon as its only slightly worse against infantry but way better against other things while having higher range

 

The Sicaran Plasma array is another situation like the Malcador Vanquisher where its only slightly better against 2+ save vehicles but alot worse against everything else and that isn't even taking into consideration that the autocannon rerolls hits against flyers.

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Matrindur

[Gillyfish]

Fascinating stuff. The Kratos Autocannon doesn't actually appear to be totally useless and may be a good bet against walkers/heavy infantry, by the look of it, which is interesting. If I have understood your calculations correctly, that is!

 

My main box hasn't shown up yet, so I don't have the Sicarans, but I am interested to see whether you have the options to equip both identically.

 

I do want to see the rules for light vehicles when those come out as I wonder if that may make some of the builds more useful (although it sounds like the Sicaran plasma option still won't be optimal).

[Matrindur]

1 hour ago, Gillyfish said:

Fascinating stuff. The Kratos Autocannon doesn't actually appear to be totally useless and may be a good bet against walkers/heavy infantry, by the look of it, which is interesting. If I have understood your calculations correctly, that is!

 

My main box hasn't shown up yet, so I don't have the Sicarans, but I am interested to see whether you have the options to equip both identically.

 

I do want to see the rules for light vehicles when those come out as I wonder if that may make some of the builds more useful (although it sounds like the Sicaran plasma option still won't be optimal).

Yeah the autocannon is way better than I thought at first.

Most of the time the choice will be Heavy Bolter vs Autocannon vs Lascannon and the autocannon is only slightly worse than the lascannon against vehicles and up while it has the best damage against smaller targets. Its pretty much the perfect allrounder. If you really want to specialize against vehicles or want the extra range you would go lascannon and if you want the Point defense you'd go Heavy Bolter but just pure damage in all situations I would go autocannon.

 

The Sicarans have enough weapons to equip everyone the same way and even have extra turrets so you can build both the autocannon and the plasma array and just swap the whole turret. But for the plasma array I can only see it being used as as a dedicated Super Heavy/Titan hunter but there should be better options for that coming in the future.

 

 

[vadersson]

Wow, this analysis is great.  It really seems to indicate that they did a pretty good job with game balance.  (Shocking, I know.). It looks like each weapon has a fairly distinct role, and that is exactly what I was hoping for.  If the data had shown that one option was better in all cases that would be disappointing.  Very happy here.

[Matrindur]

26 minutes ago, vadersson said:

Wow, this analysis is great.  It really seems to indicate that they did a pretty good job with game balance.  (Shocking, I know.). It looks like each weapon has a fairly distinct role, and that is exactly what I was hoping for.  If the data had shown that one option was better in all cases that would be disappointing.  Very happy here.

There are options that are obviously worse like the Battlecannon Malcador (those 3" just aren't enough over the Lascannon) but most weapons have a use which is more than you would expect from GW nowadays 

[DuskRaider]

3 hours ago, Matrindur said:

Yeah the autocannon is way better than I thought at first.

Most of the time the choice will be Heavy Bolter vs Autocannon vs Lascannon and the autocannon is only slightly worse than the lascannon against vehicles and up while it has the best damage against smaller targets. Its pretty much the perfect allrounder. If you really want to specialize against vehicles or want the extra range you would go lascannon and if you want the Point defense you'd go Heavy Bolter but just pure damage in all situations I would go autocannon.

 

The Sicarans have enough weapons to equip everyone the same way and even have extra turrets so you can build both the autocannon and the plasma array and just swap the whole turret. But for the plasma array I can only see it being used as as a dedicated Super Heavy/Titan hunter but there should be better options for that coming in the future.

 

 

It sounds like a Melta / AutoCannon Kratos would be pretty good for busting bunkers and wiping out any resistance then… better than the HB in that duty?

[Gillyfish]

From what I gathering, the HB's main attraction is the Point Defense trait which gives it shots against charging infantry, otherwise you would be taking the autocannon for anti-infantry work.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ya the point defence gives a few bonuses. You can shoot in the movement phase, including during a march order, allowing for really speedy repositioning. You can overwatch on native hit rolls instead of -2, giving allowing you to better hit chargers. And it gives you split fire so you can better direct your output. These things definitely add up and give it a reason to be taken if you want anti infantry. 

 

The Kratos is pretty interesting because you can make a case for a lot of its weapon combinations. The battle cannons first profile is versatile and 20", which pairs well with full las, but the hull autos are also very good into anything that's not 2+ vehicle. But, the short range profile and the melta are absolutely devastating to vehicles and need you to be close, making the heavy bolters more valuable; you can shoot while getting into position, ward off chargers, and split fire compared to the overkill of melta + las. Pretty sure the only "bad" build is melta+las, and that's purely due to the range differences.

[DuskRaider]

Hmmm… so maybe Melta / HB sponsons / Auto Hull would be a good loadout. How would that work with the AutoCannon, though? If I pop the building with the Melta and shoot Infantry with the HB, which would the Auto be forced to shoot at? Since it can’t split fire, would you choose which weapon it has to follow up or does it have to be the main (turret) weapon?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Autos would be forced to shoot at the building it can't hurt. They're not great for that build in terms of the building kill turn or the boost up the table, but you can make a solid argument about their output in other scenarios like general midrange duties post building bust.

 

Kinda interesting to point out that the baneblade autos actually have point defence, so you can split those and the heavy bolter turrets into the Infantry.

[DuskRaider]

That’s kind of a bummer. Sounds like HB are just all around better then. 

[Captain Idaho]

Got to ask ourselves what will the role of the Kratos be in an army? It's our big assault vehicle at this point, with an army around us generally good at targeting infantry. Autocannons might be good at Infantry compared to Lascannons, but only just.

 

Remember that relying on failed 2+ and 3+ saves is painful, proportionately. These are usually tanks and the like, plus war engines. Having lascannons in these circumstances is generally speaking a better idea.

 

I feel Sicarans are generally better suited to light, fast enemy culling. They're cheaper and will be targeted less often due to Kratos in your list.

 

Heavy bolters are nice options to split fire generally. A nice option if you're got Kratos firing at enemy tanks but still want to split fire to hurt nearby Infantry.