Xenos, and LoV discussion

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Historically the 40K universe has had imperium, chaos and xenos.

leagues aren’t imperium, or chaos, so they’ve been classified as xenos…but is that an accurate classification?

 

culturally LoV are ‘other’ but what about biologically? Have they really evolved into something different enough to no longer classify as some sort of human?

 

would it be better to classify things as human, chaos, and xenos?

 

[Helias_Tancred]

I agree. They're not Xenos. 

[TrawlingCleaner]

They're "Human" like Salmon and Mullocks are "Fish"

Both are so far away from each other evolution wise they're alien to Imperium "Humans". GSC are similar. Xenos fits perfectly.

 

Splitting things into your suggested would be:

Xenos:

Orks

Tau

Eldar

Nids

Necrons

 

Chaos:

Daemons

 

Human:

Entire rest of the setting

[phandaal]

3 minutes ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

Both are so far away from each other evolution wise they're alien to Imperium "Humans". GSC are similar. Xenos fits perfectly.

 

Yep. LoV are not humans. They are a different species that was engineered from the human genome.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

They're "Human" like Salmon and Mullocks are "Fish"

Both are so far away from each other evolution wise they're alien to Imperium "Humans". GSC are similar. Xenos fits perfectly.

 

Splitting things into your suggested would be:

Xenos:

Orks

Tau

Eldar

Nids

Necrons

 

Chaos:

Daemons

 

Human:

Entire rest of the setting

Squats are human, and LoV are just squats that have been out of contact for a few thousand years.

rapid evolution does happen, but I don’t think they’re different enough from the squats on necromunda to classify as a new species.

2 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

They're "Human" like Salmon and Mullocks are "Fish"

Both are so far away from each other evolution wise they're alien to Imperium "Humans". GSC are similar. Xenos fits perfectly.

 

Splitting things into your suggested would be:

Xenos:

Orks

Tau

Eldar

Nids

Necrons

 

Chaos:

Daemons

 

Human:

Entire rest of the setting

Chaos would be anyone significantly tainted by chaos, just like it currently is.

 

 

[Madao]

According to wiki, xeno means 'stranger, outsider, alien, guest, foreigner'. With this definition, LoV are xenos for Imperium. It doesn't mean that they are totally alien species (like orks), just that they are not part of the Imperium. Chaos (aside from demons) is not 'xeno' to the Imperium, more like a civil war of some sort - thus they have their own category

[Grotsmasha]

I think the in-universe needs to be considered here.

I feel the LoV have positioned themselves as Xenos so as to protect themselves from the Imperium and Admech.

[MoriyaSchism]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Squats are human, and LoV are just squats that have been out of contact for a few thousand years.

rapid evolution does happen, but I don’t think they’re different enough from the squats on necromunda to classify as a new species.

Chaos would be anyone significantly tainted by chaos, just like it currently is.

 

 

Don't the LoV have really weird scaley skin sometimes? Some of the heads in the infantry sets and some of the Codex art kind sets them apart from the Necromunda Squats who look human in their facial features at least.

[DemonGSides]

Plus the LoV don't really follow traditional human culture, physiology, mentality, or really have anything to tie them back to their "humanity" beyond "Hey we came from Terra way back when."

Xenos.

[Noserenda]

Votaan are technically no more alien than Ogryns or navigators but politically they fit in the Xeno category because they are not a part of the Imperium (Or Chaos for that matter). 

I would also expect the distinction to be lost on 99.9% of the Imperium's populace :D 

[MARK0SIAN]

I think Madao has summed it up well for me. I never considered the 40k definition of Xenos to really be anything to do with species, more like a collective ‘other’ group for anyone who was not part of the imperium or chaos/renegade category. 
 

For example, Tzaangors (which are technically a form of abhuman) are considered chaos in the same way that heretic astartes and daemons are considered chaos. Now Tzaangors are definitely not the same species as daemons but they have the same affiliation. I’m pretty sure that if there were any LoV (or even tyranids, Orks, necrons etc) who were somehow in service to chaos, then I’m pretty sure the imperium would consider them chaos forces rather than Xenos.

 

What I’m essentially saying is that allegiance seems to matter more in the definition than any biological considerations. There’s essentially Imperium, Chaos and everyone else  and the everyone else category are named Xenos.

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Squats are human, and LoV are just squats that have been out of contact for a few thousand years.

rapid evolution does happen, but I don’t think they’re different enough from the squats on necromunda to classify as a new species.

 

The Kin are not an evolved divergence from humanity. They are an artificial new species, engineered using human genes as the starting point. 

 

Also, Squats are LoV who have been separate from the rest of the Leagues for millennia. Squats started as part of the Leagues, not the other way around. Neither group are humans.

[Emperor Ming]

Official Imperial designation homo-sapien rotundus

 

Sounds humanish to me

 

 

[Indy Techwisp]

While they are a form of Abhuman (having diverged from baseline humanity eons ago), they fit perfectly into Xenos.
Why?
'cause the Imperium sure as warp keeps registering them as Xenos.

Yeah, they know Squats are Abhumans, but they classify Demiurg as Xenos despite both being variants of Kin.

Equally, GSC are "Xenos" despite being literal, actual humans at their core (with a tad bit of Tyranid genes thrown in).

So LoV fit just fine in Xenos, 'cause that's what the wider Imperium assumes they are 90% of the time.

[MegaVolt87]

LoV and squats are also politically better allies of convenience than Eldar/ Tau for Imperium orgs. Better neighbours too in that asteroid belt than say Orks lol. 

[MoriyaSchism]

5 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

While they are a form of Abhuman (having diverged from baseline humanity eons ago), they fit perfectly into Xenos.
Why?
'cause the Imperium sure as warp keeps registering them as Xenos.

Yeah, they know Squats are Abhumans, but they classify Demiurg as Xenos despite both being variants of Kin.

Equally, GSC are "Xenos" despite being literal, actual humans at their core (with a tad bit of Tyranid genes thrown in).

So LoV fit just fine in Xenos, 'cause that's what the wider Imperium assumes they are 90% of the time.

That's one of the many things I really don't like about the Votann. The reveal of them as the Demiurg and their fluff implying they developed Ion and Rail weapons for the Tau. Just cheapens the Tau retroactivelly by essentially giving them Dark Age human tech and makes the setting generally feel smaller.

[MegaVolt87]

32 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

That's one of the many things I really don't like about the Votann. The reveal of them as the Demiurg and their fluff implying they developed Ion and Rail weapons for the Tau. Just cheapens the Tau retroactivelly by essentially giving them Dark Age human tech and makes the setting generally feel smaller.

 

I disagree, Tau were super primative, I like how they got help because they were a bit super duper with their tech jump organically. In old world, dwarfs shared gunpowder with humans, but the space dwarfs didn't share anything with the 40k humans. It's a nice contrast to have unfriendly/ wary space dwarfs with the sci fi humans. 

[MoriyaSchism]

14 minutes ago, MegaVolt87 said:

 

I disagree, Tau were super primative, I like how they got help because they were a bit super duper with their tech jump organically. In old world, dwarfs shared gunpowder with humans, but the space dwarfs didn't share anything with the 40k humans. It's a nice contrast to have unfriendly/ wary space dwarfs with the sci fi humans. 

Tau and Demiurg tech went from being a unique alien technology to being another piece of STC derived tech like almost all the stuff the Imperium uses in the setting. The contrast with Fantasy dwarves doesn't matter or make any of this better.

[Magos Takatus]

The background for the Tau receiving their Ion technology from the "Bentu'sin" goes as far back as the original 3rd edition codex unless I am misremembering. Back then they were collaborating with the game studio called Relic and it was a nod to the game "Homeworld" where the player is given the option to purchase Ion Cannon frigate blueprints from a wise alien race known as the Bentusi. It was considered that this was the Demiurg who later became reimagined as the Leagues of Votann. 

 

The Tau created almost all of their tech with their own hands, what difference does trade for technology with other races make for their background? If anything it strengthens the Tau Empire part that is almost forgotten nowadays in the rush to design more battlesuits.

[apologist]

14 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Historically the 40K universe has had imperium, chaos and xenos.

leagues aren’t imperium, or chaos, so they’ve been classified as xenos…but is that an accurate classification?

culturally LoV are ‘other’ but what about biologically? Have they really evolved into something different enough to no longer classify as some sort of human?

would it be better to classify things as human, chaos, and xenos?

 

+ In-universe +

As @Madao says, Xenos means 'alien' – but this is in the sense of 'Other', rather than 'space alien'. 

 

The Imperium is doctrine-bound, close-minded and hostile to anything beyond very narrow official strictures. Cultural understanding is not  a virtue, but threats to the status quo. Even on planets where an idea of genetics is understood, any sense of shared identity between the individuals that make up the Imperium and those that make up the Leagues of Votann will be irrelevant, as any findings would be suppressed, manipulated or subject to doublethink.

 

As a mass, the people of the Imperium are not free-thinkers: everything in their society leads to mindless obedience to authority. Apparent or underlying similarities in appearance or genetics between the Kin and humanity make sense to us as modern people, but – without skirting on real world politics – to the denizens of the Imperium, would be irrevelant. It's status that is key. If your master says something is Xenos, then Xenos it is, however apparently human. The same applies to things that your master states is part of Imperium (or Heretic, for that matter).

 

Indeed, it's the identity as part of the Imperium that is the key part here, I think – and thus a farmed grox (or other non-human species) would be acceptable to citizens of the Imperium, while another species of domestic creature (say a krootox or squig) would be Other – that is, xenos.

 

It's entirely possible that an artefact from a Dark Age of Technology human culture – such as UR-025, were its origins known – would likewise be Xenos.

 

Ultimately, these categories are by their nature arbitrary – that's part of the horror of the setting; to think that as a part of the Imperium, you might one day be denounced as not part of the group.

 

+++

 

+ Out-of-universe +

From a commercial perspective, GW seemingly tries to alternate (or at least balance) Imperial and non-Imperial releases. This is presumably for lots of complex Sales- and Logistics-driven reasons; not least of which is making sure each faction both has its own identity, and fits into broader categories that make organisation easier..

 

At root, there are lots of Imperial factions, so putting Leagues of Votann in with them would further outweigh the Chaos and Xenos balance. Secondly, it undermines the commercial identity of both LoV as Space Dwarfs (much as Eldar are Space Elves) to have them as part of the 'Space Humans'.

 

There's also the gaming perspective – the Imperium keyword has effects there that would complicate the game and likely make unnecessary headaches for the balance dataslate if the Kin were included under its banner. It provides the game (and model) designers with some more flexibility if the Kin are hived off on their own.

[EverythingIsGreat]

19 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Historically the 40K universe has had imperium, chaos and xenos.

 

19 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

would it be better to classify things as human, chaos, and xenos?

 

 

Good day,

 

If I understand your question, you ask that instead of being classifief by faction, they should be classified by species?

 

Aren't both classifications currently used depending on context, even if such usage is not always consistent?