Surely it's not that bad? New Codex Who Dis?

[Dr. Clock]

Hey all,

 

Just writing up lists for first game with Codex, and I wonder at how you all are taking the changes, or lack thereof.

 

I've been feeling down on robots in-game for a few weeks even though they're a favorite in my collection, but today it sunk in that at least they can shoot in combat so they don't seem as bad as they did 24h ago? Still feel like ~80pt models, not 100, but trying not to jump to conclusions, nor leave out minis that I want to play with!

 

I've also gotta say that I do appreciate that although robots are expensive, everything else in the list is decidedly not, so it feels pretty deep even though damage still feels pretty inconsistent with no Kataphrons (I have 6 on sprue finally, but they won't be fieldable for at least a month).

 

Anyway - is everyone here still sadface about AdMech, or are some of you hopefully basking in binaric glory with the new shinies?

 

My narrative chonky list (note over points because we go up to 2100 in narrative games specifically so that we can always include a 'POV character' who gets advances game to game - we did this for the last couple years of 9th, and it's mad fun):

 

2x Datasmith

1 Marshal (POV character)

1 Dominus

1 Manipulus

1 Technoarchaeologist

 

2x Rangers

3x Vanguard

2x1 las Ballistarii

2x2 Robots (each has flamer, baster, fist)

1x Onager

1x3 Serberys Raiders

2x3 Sulphurhounds

2x5 Infiltrators

 

1x Knight Errant

 

Will let you know how it goes... But probably going for Skitarii Vets.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

[Bouargh]

Beyond what was shown on Youtube/Goonhammer... as prereleased stuff, I confess I still haven´t looked at the Codex itself. I will probably not anyway for at least a good month as I am on a gaming break. Due to a heavily loaded agenda for these end of year....

I will anyway probably stay tuned to any feed back and RoI from others, even if my feeling (based on nothing more than the previously cited material) is that I will keep on going the way I used to before. It means friendly games only with legend units (hello termite). I am still thinking about adding a Knight just as you do. For the rest I was "heavy" on Kataphron destroyers and will keep on like that. But so far I am sticked to 1500 pts, so...

 

Only think I am "sure of" is that I will pass on the new sniper model character.

[brother_b]

My thoughts on admech, not just 10th edition. Mini rant:

 

I came back in 8th and loved the look and lore of admech. I made them my first army and they’re my first complete army. I took them to LVO last year in 9th edition.  I didn’t build this army to be super competitive, so I missed out on the absolute crush fest that was Adeptus Mechanicus with Vanguard spam, etc.

 

From those additions, into this addition, my feeling has been nobody has really come up with a solid army theme. It should be hordes of cyborgs and thralls with crazy robots, constructs, and weapons wielded by crazy techno-wizards. We get the look but not the feel.

 

I don’t know how to fix it, but sticking to the trope of skitarii vs. cult mechanics has resulted in a scattered, watered down experience. Why the confusing separation of rules?

 

And the new miniature the Skratos release is worthless! Weaker shooting than an assassin in an expensive model. Why?! I love the look because it’s weird, but it’s just worthless.

 

Anyway I’m not really excited about the army, I don’t have the miniatures to spam the “best” units, and it feels really meh.
 

I’ll play soon and give a more official report but my feelings are not of excitement.

[Nagashsnee]

We did not get a codex, they charge us quite a bit of money for a errata.  Why do i say this?

 

Nothing really changed, not the unit rules, not the army playstyle, not the way you build your list or what unit does what role, no unit really got better or worse rules. Everything was just tweaking the index.  Even the points barely changed.  Heck the bloody codex even has the same cover art ( i know they added a cog in the backround wow)!  

 

I dont feel i got a 'new' codex/army book, i dont feel i have any real choices now that i did not have before this book came out. Its still the same 4-6 units being spammed led by the same characters aiming to pull off the same tricks. 

 

And its all down to them lacking any vision or ideas or really interest for the army. And nowhere is it more evident then the detachments.  Theoretically the deatchments sound great!  There a robot boosting one! One where you want to lean on priests or skitarii, play a explorator army or rad away!

 

But then reality hits, the detachments were written for a army that doesnt exist. And i dont mean power level wise (where lets be honest we have MAYBE 2 viable detachments). I mean literally the army they made these for doesnt exist. Legio cybernatica sounds great in the lore but on the table i have 1 single legio cybernetica unit. WoW cant wait to make a themed cybernetica list my dudes!

 

Cult mechanicus has 1 unit broken into 2 sub types ( and i know kataphros count as cult, but theme wise they are just servitors).An explorator list is just any old list, nothing makes it special, especially not its rules.  Unit wise nothing will really change between rad and skitarii hunters, just relics and maybe hqs. In a book with 30 units they tried to make 6 different sub armies, but no one really did the math on that. 

 

This book feels like it was written with the 30k range open on a second screen, cybernetica! Hell yeah tons of choices, CULT! Myrmidons! Lets go bois!, etc etc. 

 

So here i stand, making a list with my 'new book' and what really changed? List wise i save some points so i can add more units, not new units as the army only has 5-6 viable units and i am already fielding them all.  Sothe list is the same, i just switch detachments to skitarii hunters and lost some relics and buffing the enemy 1/3 times  but gained stealth...wow. 

 

Gameplay/plan wise? Nothing. Kataphrons to kill with characters to lead, skitarii to buff them, crab tanks to take pot shots all game ( and buff sktiarii) and then chikcen knights to die as slowly and costly as possible. On and a unit or 2 of our 'elite cc' sicarans to hid on objs and pray nothing charges them (lol).. So no changes there. 

 

I asked my regular opponents if they noticed a difference and one of them had honestly not noticed i had gotten a new codex. He just assumed i worked out the 'shooty relic' wasnt worth it. 

 

So lets step away from the rules, no new lore that i have found, 1-2 new pieces of nice new art (why wasnt one of these used as a cover?) and the rest is pretty much identical with the exception of the get started box which to me is a waste of pages anyhow. 

 

So to answer your question, the errata is fine, weird it costed so much but hopefully when our CODEX comes out for 10th it will breathe some fresh air into the army. 

[Ulfast]

I had ad mech as one of my favorite armies in 9:ed and was very much looking forward to 10ed. But after a couple of games I have put them on the shelves for now. I have not even bought the codex or the new miniature as I don´t feel any direct joy for the army. Sad as we look so very cool amd have some of the best miniatures of the game (and perhaps one or two of the worse, lol).

 

I do see some people who likes the army and that´s good but sadly I´m right now not one of them.

[Quantum]

I actually am simply glad the new Codex fixed some annoying bugs in the army. Now the Datasmith is no longer a liability for the kastellans by giving them the infantry keyword, the rad-bombardment now is more of a choice for the opponent, the Sydonian Dragoons with lances have phosphor serpentas as standard, and the Dragoons with jezzail are a separate datasheet with a much lower cost compared to the dragoons with taser lances.

 

I have not played a game yet, but it seems that some units are still a bit underwhelming, like the Marshall that does little more than give a slight buff to a single unit of rangers or vanguard.

 

It is actually the Crusade rules that I have the biggest issues with. The search for acheotech is perhaps the hallmark for the AdMech, but rulewise it says that even if you win all your battles, you still need to win on average six battles to acquire a piece of archeotech. With one or two battles per week, that is a quite a lot of week where you see no boon from your crusade rules. And why do the Achievements have requirements that seem to make little sense? I mean, the first achievement says you should win at least one battle and assemble a single piece of archeotech. But just to have a 1/3 change to find a single acheotech component you must already have won the battle in the first place. 

[Dr. Clock]

Well... Got a win anyway.

 

List was changed from last version to try and get maximum stratagem values on large units. So: all the robots together and drop datasmith 2, technoarchaeologist and 5 infiltrators for 10 Ruststalkers. Also combined sulphurhounds into 1x6.

 

Short edges deployment, basically plain jane mission - take and hold/cold rain.

 

Enemy list:

 

Nightbringer

Illuminor Szeras

Overlord

Plasmancer

Technomancer

Royal Warden

Command Barge

 

4x10 warriors (Overlord in 1, technomancer in the other)

10 Immortals (Warden/Plasmancer)

 

2x doomstalker

Spyder

2x3 scarabs (just camped back corners)

1x3 Skorpekhs (actually pretty decent now!)

 

So... not exactly a tuned list.

 

Enemy got turn 1 and kind of stumbled immediately, failing to get 2 units on to middle objectives on a short advance. Ruststalkers got turn 1 charge on to his centre 10+Overlord and killed those 10, but took Nightbringer in the grille right after that. For 120 points of pure Turn 1 centre tapping, ruststalkers were actually fine.

 

Nightbringer is crazy good value... the FNP is intense - I got 5 wounds on it after charging with Knight and robots turn 2 (2 got to swing, other 2 flattened Overlord) and I did kill it with robots by combusting it in melee turn 3, but not before it killed the Knight (in fairness the stalkers did 18 wounds to it first). Then robots almost all died to doomstalkers, though they rolled up and assaulted them as well, killing one before the end of the battle. They're fun. 1 of each gun, and then get +2 A and go crump something.

 

Herohammer Immortals absolutely slapped me around on right flank, but doggos, infiltrators and vanguard consolidated left flank and ended up pushing through there. Rangers moved on centre after robots moved off though and grabbed the clinching 5pts at end of turn 5.

 

Skitarii: I still wish they did a bit more, but they are sometimes decently tough, and anti-infantry 4+ or 30" range are not actively bad, just routinely outclassed. Literally it'd be fine if they could be taken in 20s still for buff efficiency, but then they probably couldn't be actually battleline... Maybe they could make that a 'reverse transport' rule where you can combine units into 20s, but can take no more than 60 of each rangers/vanguard per game.

 

Anyway - it's a fun list. I think it could even be a good list with the kataphrons added...

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

 

[Bouargh]

On 12/16/2023 at 5:14 AM, Dr. Clock said:

List was changed from last version to try and get maximum stratagem values on large units. So: all the robots together and drop datasmith 2, technoarchaeologist and 5 infiltrators for 10 Ruststalkers. Also combined sulphurhounds into 1x6.

 

So you favoured big massed units, maximizing the head counts in each one so to have enough hitting power or enough residual hitting power while soaking up some losses untill your unit reached the moment where it is suppose to perform its paper... I have the feeling it is more or less a gross and general tendancy in 10th for AdMechs. Maximize ou unit size.  Did you have this experience?

 

 

[Ulfast]

Yes, I have. When I at least have used small units they die very quick and do very little. Better to go max.  

[Dr. Clock]

On 12/17/2023 at 10:41 AM, Bouargh said:

I have the feeling it is more or less a gross and general tendancy in 10th for AdMechs. Maximize out unit size

I think it's a general tendency for 10th more than Admech alone tbh, but I often considered it in terms of character investment and left the stratagems aside from that. If there were just a couple more CP in the game, I think people would value the 'big just for stratagems' option more. Some lists have a 'build a couple character castles and then everything else can be chaffe' kind of model, but I don't think that works quite as well for AdMech because at a certain point you just... don't need more chaffe, you need more options or opportunities to get that big roll or drop a good stratagem to nudge the direction of the game. Plus, our small infantry/mounted units are so very tiny in terms of points that a 'max unit of Ruststalkers' is still not many points, but it's enough wounds and dice that using a CP there doesn't feel completely wasteful.

 

AdMech is pretty exceptional among 10th lists in having very restrictive bodyguard options AND many(most) non-Bodyguard units get greatest benefits from being near Battleline. So the design paradigm feels like it's 'Skitarii unit + character + 1-2 other units' as the 'minimum viable formation'. This is interesting in principle, but in execution it feels like the 'increased benefit near battleline' is never better than what other armies can rely on just for showing up... because we're not ever in the 'high skill' pool of BS/WS3+ to start with, nor truly 'horde' in having units of 20 to just flood dice. Look at 20 necron warriors w/ plasmancers and compare to a Dominus and 2x10 rangers.

 

But yes - In 10th buff characters and stratagems both benefit massively when you can get large enough units to make best use of the bonuses. 10 wounds or less and a unit is definitely a 'skirmisher' in my books, and unless it's for pure positioning/scoring, I'm not spending CP or character resources on that. That's what makes the 10-man Skitarii as only bodyguard unit so annoying! Also the premium we have to pay to use the 'combined fire' strat... Why 2CP if it's clearly supposed to be a benefit of the strict 10-man cohort approach? Any other army would have that for 1cp and just avaiable to use on a full strength unit of 20! I used Binharic Offence once in the game on my 2 Ranger squads and they still did absolutely nothing...

 

So yeah - going forward I think I'll likely include Skitarii only with characters (thinking 2 each Marshal, Manipulus, Dominus), and just keep wishing I could save some of that character budget and run cohorts of 15 or 20 instead.

 

EDIT - Next List - (Note I play to 2100 points; last hundred points is for narrative 'point of view' character that we do lite crusade with):

 

Datasmith

2x marshal

2x Dominus

2x Manipulus

 

2x Rangers

3x Vanguard

 

2x1 Ironstriders (las)

1x4 Kastelan (fist / gun / flames)

1x6 Breachers

Onager

1x6 Sulphurhounds

1x5 Infiltrators

1x10 Ruststalkers

 

Not running this for a while tho - Kataphrons to paint, and at least a month or two of other projects that are more pressing (landraider, votann).

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Dr. Clock

[MagicHat]

My disappointment with AdMech is multilayered.

 

On the edition side, fixed point cost for all wargear makes some stuff just not relevant (Do you want the Onager phosphor blaster? Or the better ranged, strength and A with complimentary AT missile Icarus Array? Keep in my, you lose out on ignore cover!) The fixed unit size is a slap in the face for the converters and kitbashers. Shouldn't have used those kataphron tracks for something else MagicHat, you no longer have the correct unit size!

They had to split the Dragoons because they couldn't fix the power disparity...

 

Model philosophy, the Skitarii fast cavalry have close range flamer AI or longer ranged AI rifles. The jumpers have close range flamer AI or long ranged AI rifles. The sicarians have Devastating wounds or sustainted hits AI. Can you guess what the electropriests have?

I feel that the following lineup would have been better:

Raiders are fine.

Sulphurhounds with 1D3 A flamers, but everyone have Arc Mauls.

Sterylizors with flamers are fine.

Instead of flecettes, the dualbuild is meltaguns.

The models are cool though, no complaints there.

 

I haven't received the codex yet unfortunately, so going by what I heard: The fact that the Sicarians don't have BS/WS3 is an outrage. The onagers being a heavy weapon support with the option of a twinliked HB +1 is a joke.

Is it true that Marshals stratagem support were limited to battletactics and all the hunter cohorts strats are strategic ploys? Because at that point we are just getting pranked. 

Why the Marshal didn't get the power to switch the imperative of 1 unit within 9"/1 datatether unit on the board is a mystery. 

[Dr. Clock]

Yeah - I hear ya.

 

It's still very difficult to assess how much was known about broader 40k balance when this was locked in at the printers'. Others have argued at length over whether they 'should have known' about some lists' issues, but does feel like AdMech is gonna be hard to turn around now that the book came out so early because the only tools they've committed to using for updates is points cost and ability wording changes rather that weapon stat-line changes.

 

I imagine at the least the lack of battle-tactics there means this was definitely not written with that in mind and the next balance slate should get us one or two back. That strat ability would only be a marginal benefit even if it applied to all the hunter cohort strats... I wouldn't usually spend 2 CP to a) send 2 vanguard units into strat reserves, b) make 2 invisible outside 12", or c) advance and charge w/ 2.

 

I guess it could really be the characters and abilities that some shine through a slate though... like change Marshal to be 'when this model's unit is selected for a stratagem, one other unit that would otherwise be eligible for that stratagem within 12" may also be selected for that same stratagem for 0CP.' So it's not exactly a Space Marine captain doing stuff himself for free, it's that the protocol on the marshal is being blasted out to nearby units. Then you would only need one marshal to make 2 units invisible for 1CP or whatever.

 

Also definitely hearing you on the lack of AT from a philosophy perspective - if there were melta sterylizors I'd be allllll over that. Likewise some anti-vehicle on Priests I guess - I'm okay with the light cav being light, it's really just the S3 that sets them back the most to me, and the awkwardness of their special rule... if it just wasn't based on number of models in unit or engagement range, it'd be way better. Could be interesting to give the raiders anti-monster 5+ or something tho. As-is they are 'just' a premier skirmish piece with 0 damage expectation.

 

Ruststalkers / Infiltrators - it is known; they must return to WS3+ before the end of 10th! As things go on I may have a discussion with oppo about making that change for like a 10 or 20 point bump. Devastating or anti-infantry 3+ could be pretty intense with just the WS upgrade though, so maybe offering 85 points to start? Feels like with proper WS they'd be about as good as Intercessors or Infernus marines...?

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

[Ulfast]

I have been thinking, perhaps we are not so bad but several units lacks and the good one fast gets boring to play. And the biggest problem, our army is so expensive moneywise, real money. Its hard to try something new as that can easy be 200€. Only to find out it was bad.

[Nagashsnee]

On 12/27/2023 at 9:45 AM, Ulfast said:

I have been thinking, perhaps we are not so bad but several units lacks and the good one fast gets boring to play. And the biggest problem, our army is so expensive moneywise, real money. Its hard to try something new as that can easy be 200€. Only to find out it was bad.

 

The army has never been auto loss in 10th, just trapped in a very very narrow playstyle of spamming the only 'good' thing in each category (hqs, units, vehicles, etc). 

 

It is however very very expensive as you say, a problem from the second wave (pteraxi,cav, etc) and somewhat from inception ( 5 electros per box lol).  The key thing here is that this issue keeps getting worse and worse. Not only do GW prices keep rising, but unit points cost keep decreasing.  A double whamming of pain that drives new players away, and kills as you said any sort of risky or creative list. 

 

Number 1 offender has always been the sydonians, 50 euros for a unit you need in HUGE numbers and costs next to nothing points wise. 

 

Mech in 10th have always been able to make a list that can have a solid chance at winning vs most others. Its just its always been that, A list, singular. And the codex did not change that, only change the window dressing. 

[brother_b]

Well the LVO usually sees the exposure of the “best” armies, meaning the ones most powerful in a competitive tournament game.

 

Admech only had 16 players and had a measly 35.2% win rate.

 

And we have our codex. That’s really bad. I was hoping we’d be up in the 40% range.

[Dr. Clock]

5 hours ago, brother_b said:

16 players and had a measly 35.2% win rate

Womp womp

 

Fingers crossed for something shiny in the MFM / Balance slate. I'm definitely focusing on Votann and retrofitting oldmarines this year mainly, but I'll inevitably try them again when I get this one Kataphron unit painted in a couple months.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[brother_b]

Yes that’s how I feel. It’s just so lackluster though and I’m sure the only thing that may get changed are the points. I don’t expect them to change rules.

[Madao]

Will they invalidate the codex in two months after the release like in the 9th ed? At least they are not nerfing us...

[brother_b]

19 minutes ago, Madao said:

Will they invalidate the codex in two months after the release like in the 9th ed? At least they are not nerfing us...

I mean… we started nerfed… but yeah it’s definitely early.

[Dr. Clock]

On 1/22/2024 at 12:47 AM, Madao said:

At least they are not nerfing us...

I do think all things considered I prefer taking a journey toward power more than away. Always better to hope for a buff than fear a nerf lol.

 

The rumoured change to Doctrinas (make AP/armour buffs relevant mid-field in addition to deployment zones) could work, but it won't make Protector comparable to Conqueror, and it does nothing for melee. It will make everyone take an omni-spex lol... and AP-1 ignores cover carbines are definitely better than ap nil... while even AP-4 plasma supercharge and ap-2 arc rifles would be fun.

 

The more I think about that, the more I think being the 'shooting AP army' is a pretty decent niche.

 

Main hope for the slate is just any kind of damage buff, but ideally one that touches melee units as well.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Dr. Clock]

U wot mate?

 

Complete absence from balance data-slate.

No points changes.

No Codex FAQ.

 

I haz disappoint. I suppose it is just possible that we'll see a substantial targeted change in a couple of weeks, but I ain't holding my breath.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

[Bouargh]

1 hour ago, Dr. Clock said:

 

I haz disappoint. I suppose it is just possible that we'll see a substantial targeted change in a couple of weeks, but I ain't holding my breath.

 

 

Except if we are granted a surprise KT unit in the third instalment of the season, I would not bet on any change soon ... I hope we might get something via KT (at least an upgrade sprue for a "veteran" skitarii unit); it would be puzzling setting the stage on a mechanicum world and not getting any admech stuff fighting for their dominion...

[brother_b]

I was hoping they were just letting things even out based on the new release of the codex. Then next data slate they address issues.

 

Our points feel pretty low on most cases, so what else can they do? 7 point rangers? 80 point robots?

 

I think we need some rule and stat changes.

 

I can’t afford to spam low point armies, it’s the rules and data slates man.

Edited January 31 by brother_b

[Dr. Clock]

44 minutes ago, brother_b said:

80 point robots?

Basically just this yea... My list has 4, so that'd be another unit of vanguard ; )

 

The points feel like they mostly get you enough stuff - even with over-priced robots, I don't feel a lack of stuff in my lists really... just the nerf level damage output most of the time.

 

Hilariously, the biggest buff to my AdMech came in the form of points reduction on the Knight Errant, who is now basically the same price as 4 robots...

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Dr. Clock]

So turns out it was that bad... But I'm nevertheless glowing with the blessing of the Machine God over these new Doctrinas. Let the gunnery psalms commence!

 

I'm going to take the radbois out for a spin tomorrow to celebrate the potential return to being actually hitty. Protector is actually good now! Heck - melee builds might even be good now!

 

I lost 170 points, and I'm actually happy about it lol.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.