Concerns about Legions Imperialis

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

I haven´t been familiar with GW´s release practices for a long time with the exception of 30K HH 2.0 so the following concerns mentioned by me might be unfounded. Regardless of that I am hyped up for Epic but apparently my favourite 3rd party retailer here in Germany has run out of stock pretty swift and it will take a long time until they have products for sale up again. In addition the fellows of the Youtube channel "Heresy Hammer" predicted doom and gloom (no support) for this game. Their estimation is based upon the fact of how badly that release has been handled.

 

I am on the fence right now, if I should order instead directly from GW although there is a certain reluctance to it as there is no discount. What would you do? 

[Sherrypie]

The game is up and running. The first expansion is announced and we know of a long line of products previewed by GW already that are coming next year.

 

The models themselves are also usable for at least eight different GW games in the long line of Epics and similar games before even stepping out to third party rulesets. The Epic community actively engages with over 30 years of content you are welcome to partake in regardless of what GW decides to do. Doomsayers have a very myopic view of the possibilities at hand, really.

[DuskRaider]

I mean… there’s no product in stock because it’s immediately sold out. People are definitely buying into the game, I can tell you that. I think it was Wednesday when GW themselves had completely restocked on their website and within a day it was all sold out again. I was lucky to snag another box of Kratos (and FW Warhound weapons) when I had the chance, but when I went back later that night it was all gone. Hell, they still can’t seem to keep the bases in stock at all, I haven’t had a chance to grab any before they’re gone. 
 

I’m still not sure if it’s wildly successful so far or yet again they underestimated the popularity of the game (much like Titanicus), but all signs point to it being a success so far. The key to ensuring it stays that way now is for steady support and ensuring the customer has access to the product consistently. 
 

With the Expansion rumored to be out fairly soon along with new units, it’ll be even more important for them to keep up with demand. If things keep selling out immediately and people can’t get their hands on the stuff, they may start to lose interest or turn to 3D printing instead. 

[Pacific81]

Yes I think very promising so far. My main concern is the keeping of stuff in stock, like you say, if people can't buy then they can't play! Also that the first expansion comes out with basic stuff like Land Raiders, jet bikes, drop pods. It will still feel like and early-access game to me until they add those things, which are staples of the setting really.

[Jagus Kumkani]

I don't think there's anything to be concerned about. LFGS all over have had huge interest in the game and the GW near me sold out in like 10 mins and he's currently waiting on his next shipment which he anticipates will be sold completely out as well. I got a box from an online store but will be getting additional units from the Gw store. This is my only way to get into heresy without going broke and spending ages building and painting huge blobs of infantry. Plus I've got a 3D printer I've been making Rhinos, Infantry, etc on. So me personally, its dope. I'm mad excited about the game and I think everyone else is too. 

[Captain Idaho]

I feel like the popularity of this game is higher than normal GW new game releases, including Necromunda. The local stores are filled with requests for products for customers and it sold out everywhere.

[Karhedron]

I loved Epic and I want to get into LI but I am put off by the lack of faction diversity. It is the same reason 30K doesn't appeal in that most fights are mirror matches of Marines of some flavour. If Orks and Eldar were least promised as future releases, I would be in like a shot.

[Captain Idaho]

How do you feel about custom rules? There are some decent versions already and with a 3D printer you can create Orks and Eldar quite easily.

 

I know it's not ideal of course.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

GW will not take the risk of releasing multiple factions like in  40K for a specialist game. Those times are gone. Your best bet would be to either buy from other companies or use a printer. Rules for Eldar & Orks have been already released on this forum.

[Karhedron]

Sadly my gaming group are pretty fixed on using the latest version of official rules. I would be willing to give community rulesets a whirl but i would struggle to find any opponents. 

[Pacific81]

What I have found to help in the past is that you play the official game, then when you start to get to know the people in the group a bit better then present "have you tried this?" And with something like NetEpic or Net Armageddon, even though they are ostensibly community supported, in both games they are 95% the same as the original GW games - so you are technically still playing, more or less, an 'official' GW game. And especially in the case of SM2/NetEpic, it's a very short jump as a game system. 

 

Another alternative is, if your local group are really unwilling to take off their water-wings, is depending on where you are based, there are numerous gaming groups around still playing the older (more alien-diverse) systems - so I would join something like the Middlehammer Facebook group, which has about 4000 people collecting and gaming the old versions globally. 

[Nagashsnee]

21 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I loved Epic and I want to get into LI but I am put off by the lack of faction diversity. It is the same reason 30K doesn't appeal in that most fights are mirror matches of Marines of some flavour. If Orks and Eldar were least promised as future releases, I would be in like a shot.

I feel for the next several years best we can hope for is Mechanicum, Talons of the Emperor, Deamons and MAYBE imperial army. 

 

If the game is still selling well in 3-5 years who knows?

[Matcap86]

On 12/19/2023 at 12:42 PM, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

GW will not take the risk of releasing multiple factions like in  40K for a specialist game. Those times are gone. Your best bet would be to either buy from other companies or use a printer. Rules for Eldar & Orks have been already released on this forum.

 

Wait, how do you come to this conclusion? The only specialist game where that is even remotely true is titanicus. Every other specialist game has had tons of factions released. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by matcap86

[Pacific81]

I guess the thing is @matcap86 how many SKUs, product development time etc. a fully realised version of Epic would take.

Remember old Epic used to fill an entire 1/3rd of a GW store wall as a main game. So you wouldn't just have a new blood Bowl team and star player or two, or Necro gang, you'd have potentially a dozen SKUs or more for even a single 40k faction if it was represented properly.

I think that was why they went back to Heresy with this - it was an achievable product volume to release a game, before the development guys move onto new BFG, Trollz in the Pantry or whatever else they do next.

[Matcap86]

7 minutes ago, Pacific81 said:

I guess the thing is @matcap86 how many SKUs, product development time etc. a fully realised version of Epic would take.

Remember old Epic used to fill an entire 1/3rd of a GW store wall as a main game. So you wouldn't just have a new blood Bowl team and star player or two, or Necro gang, you'd have potentially a dozen SKUs or more for even a single 40k faction if it was represented properly.

I think that was why they went back to Heresy with this - it was an achievable product volume to release a game, before the development guys move onto new BFG, Trollz in the Pantry or whatever else they do next.

 

Oh yeah, no I agree with all you said here. I think a full 40k style epic is unrealistic, just by stint of the murderous release schedule GW has forced themselves into with 40k and needing to port over those new units to epic everytime something new releases. Back in ye olden days the amount of factions was also not that big iirc? Guard, Marines, Orks, Eldar, Squats, Tyranids and Chaos. With several subfactions included in there. The current range far exceeds that. 

 

I was just confused at the whole "GW don't make multiple factions for specialist games anymore" statement. With most specialist games their variety in factions is one of the core tenents of the game.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by matcap86

[vadersson]

I think GW has planned ahead with LI more than usual.  If the game sells very well I could see 40K epic returning one day and being a major like.  But the profit has to be there as it requires a lot of new tooling.

 

Did anyone notice on page 75 of the rule book under titans it says:

”… and other war machines or esoteric beasts of similar size.”  
Did the imperium use massive Titan sized beasts at all?  What about the mechanicum?  I figure this is future proofing for mechanicum and maybe demons.  It could also apply to squigoths and an Ork faction.  Just thinking…

 

[apologist]

@vadersson – I'd imagine 'esoteric beasts' is a heads-up for Daemons and Daemon Engines, but you make a good point about (say) Squiggoths. I agree with @matcap86 and @Pacific81 that a 40k-era Epic is sadly unrealistic – though we can live in hope! 

 

On a related note, I was a bit disappointed to see so many Universal Special Rules having such Imperium-specific names. Phosphex , Blessed Auto-Simulacra, Explorator Adaptation, Necrotechica.. All both exclusionary and confusing when compared with self-explanatory (or at least familiar) terms like Outflank or Skimmer.

 

A 'regaining wounds' mechanic seems something that should have had a more generic term, so it could be applied to certain Daemons, Primarchs or other future units.

 

+++

 

More generally, the thing that most concerns me about the viability of the game is the community understanding of the intended size of the game. Is 3,000pts stated anywhere in the rulebook? That seems to be the hive mind consensus of a normal game, and it's a size that's put a few of my group who were on the fence off buying in (quite understandable – it's a hefty chunk of change).

 

Seems an odd size to me – strikes me that the mechanics would work perfectly well at a smaller size.

Edited December 21, 2023 by apologist

[Valkyrion]

Mustering an army, page 126, 

Quote

The ‘standard’ points limit for games of Legions Imperialis is 3,000 points

 

I think 3000 points is chosen because it can get you a any titan and four or five formations.  Once more expansions come out there'll be more to spend points on, e.g a Fellblade squadron might be 500 points for 3 or something, so it will quickly add up. 

[Captain Idaho]

Although I can see the ideal points limit set by GW on the basis folk will take a Titan or 3, or who knows what other allies in the future, the interesting factor that will determine the real standard amongst us masses will be how tournaments operate.

 

If tournaments use say 2.5K points as a standard we'll see that influence the rest of us. The average will become like that.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Valkyrion said:

Mustering an army, page 126, 

 

I think 3000 points is chosen because it can get you a any titan and four or five formations.  Once more expansions come out there'll be more to spend points on, e.g a Fellblade squadron might be 500 points for 3 or something, so it will quickly add up. 

 

19 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Although I can see the ideal points limit set by GW on the basis folk will take a Titan or 3, or who knows what other allies in the future, the interesting factor that will determine the real standard amongst us masses will be how tournaments operate.

 

If tournaments use say 2.5K points as a standard we'll see that influence the rest of us. The average will become like that.

 

 

Ya, 2nd ed 30k has 3000 as the "intended" game size as well, even though it was originally a more restrained range of 1750-2500 for an afternoon and 3500 as the limit. They just jacked up the points to encourage more sales; the missions barely changed and the army sizes had already increased due to point decreases.

 

I'd suspect that the 3000 for LI is similar; an attempt to encourage more spending than necessary, rather to encourage a good game and allow choice. 2500 already fits in the Warmaster titan and most other Strategic Assets; the configurations you lose out on are 3x Styrix+3 Moirax, 3x Cerastus+3 armigers, and 3x warhound (which break even 3000s ally limit).

[Pacific81]

I definitely think it will be the community itself that decides on the standard points values, both for tournaments (squeeze three games into a day) and for an 'evening's play'. The rulebook mentions 3000pts being playable in a few hours, but all of the reports I have read of games report that play time for 1500-2000, so getting up to 3000 and including a full roster of varied units, once they are released, will push it over that threshold I think.

 

Not to mention the price of the game, and you want the game to be playable by people not having to choose between LI and taking a holiday with a long haul international flight!

[Interrogator Stobz]

10,000 feels about right to me 

I'll never play LI in a tournament, so stupid small, medium and stupid big will all be on the cards.

 

I alread have two almost fully painted 5000+ point AT forces, LI will be a simpler ruleset for huge games, as long as we ignore the 30% shenanigans. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

On 12/20/2023 at 2:50 AM, Nagashsnee said:

I feel for the next several years best we can hope for is Mechanicum, Talons of the Emperor, Deamons and MAYBE imperial army. 

 

If the game is still selling well in 3-5 years who knows?

I think, given the coupled designing between 30k and LI, we'll see new factions roll out as they're updated in the main game. Not necessarily always in that order, but fairly close to each other.

 

Mechanicum, as one of the other popular factions in 30k, seems quite likely to be next for both.

[Noserenda]

I think coupled design is a bit of a stretch :D 

The battlereport in WD made 3000pts on the recommended table size look super cramped, i expect we will be swinging a bit lower once we buy in, probably on 6x4's to boot.

[Pacific81]

11 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

10,000 feels about right to me 

I'll never play LI in a tournament, so stupid small, medium and stupid big will all be on the cards.

 

I alread have two almost fully painted 5000+ point AT forces, LI will be a simpler ruleset for huge games, as long as we ignore the 30% shenanigans. 

 

I'm not sure how big this game will scale. We did a 20,000pt game last year (10k per side) and after trying Epic SM and Armageddon we settled on an SM2/NetEpic hybrid as the only one that was playable in a day, and that was with some of the rules streamlined it took about 6 hours to play.

We didn't try Epic 40k but I've seen other people use that for mega-games, again it's quite streamlined.

The granular nature of this game and the fact you'd need reference books open with stat-lines/key words, much more dice rolling than SM2, I can see it being a bit torturous trying to use for really big point value games - but I am sure someone will try!