Creating Special Character "Proxies"

[chapter master 454]

So something I want to do since we are now FREE from the tyranny of colour locked armies, is taking special characters and making "chapter Neutral" models of them, with the intent being to use pre-existing kits like we used to do (it was called conversions, and it was the style at the time! None of this fancy 3D printing malarky...) and thus have models that represent the unit on the field. Now for some, this is easier than others as their base kit just is so conviently devoid of much in the way of heraldry.

Tor garadon is a prime example with only I believe 2 easily replaced parts (or even just filing down of areas) and thus doesn't need so much work.

However my first creation in this topic was a Kayvaan Shrike, combining a Chaplain models together with Shrike himself with a lot of sawing of legs...arms...and that was it, add in one barrel for the now skull-masked cloaked edgelord to stand on rather than the remains of a bunker wall (adjusting the height of the model does nothing in effect for rules or are so minor if a tournament wouldn't allow it, I likely wouldn't bother if they are that picky). The model looks nice but I now have a long standing hole in my heart for something that I never truly had something decent of, Lysander.

My First Company Captain was always played back when he was on the tables of 5th edition as Lysander and stood defiant in the face of all odds. However the model used back then...well I was something like 16...he has something like the remains of a terminator torso back half....front half of a necron destroyer (with only one shoulder pad from that remaining)...I think he used some leftover arms...and legs...oh he was a real frankenstein's monster.

Sorry, I like to remember fond memories.

For Lysander I am thinking of using the Leviathan terminator captain as his base and only 3 things are needed: A good shield, a decent thunder hammer and a god-emperor graces helmet! Naturally the new terminator kit would work well for Helmets...but the snag is at the hammer and shield...not sure what to source for that.

 

Any good suggestions on that specific front?

 

However this would lead to a rather interesting question that I am SURE will be easily agreed on and no arguments will fly over it (ofcourse not, we're all fine individuals who just agree with one another): how would you feel if someone had a WHOLE retinue of such models of varying degree of conversion...with some maybe even just being a straight model with the correct wargear?

This isn't me saying I am fielding them all, no. They would be fielded legally as per rules of the game: I ain't bringing feirros along with sicarius, nor Calgar with Korsarro Khan. But if I were to put down on the table a model, and say "this is Uriel Ventris" and it was just a standard primaris captain model...but with a power sword and bolter (aka, standard load-out) and then beside him I presented a Calgar along side victrix guard who were in somewhat ether kit-bashed or converted from other models, what would you be like about that?

In my area, where I play it largely isn't a problem. The level of play and standards are high (like tournament level) but no-one at the club is that extreme over models when playing on the week to week basis. My shrike even has had minor compliments.

 

However I suppose this is a two part question post thing really.

Thoughts on such things and their level of effort?

Thoughts on how to achieve each character of each chapter within reason and WITHOUT a 3D printer? (because I don't have one and I think in this case, its cheating! Back in my day!)

 

However I likely wouldn't try it with Gulliman or the Lion. Going to ruffle feathers; Calgar's loadout ain't as bespoke as gullimans...and Gulliman is a little...em...more straining on the suspension of rhinos...kind of why he can't ride them anymore I feel...how he GAINED weight is beyond me...maybe 10k years left him with mega-munchies and he's been binging some McEmperors!

[Dracos]

I am doing something very similar to what you have here. I’m using the Indomitus Captain shield though I believe any Bladeguard shied would look good as well. I have one Terminator thunder hammer and I’m going to add a skull to the hammer head, lengthen the shaft a bit and pop on a purity seal to cover cut lines if needed. 
 

As far as the not-Ultrmarines …. Indy is a fairly competitive scene in many of the local stores but everyone loves a good conversion. Uriel and Ventrix Guard should be pretty easy using a box of Bladeguard imo with proper bits or paint scheme to make them easy to differentiate from actual Bladeguard. 
 

Marneus is an issue for me. I have a Tor Garadon I’ve never used and probably could find a left handed power fist but I think I’m going to pay for a 3D version of this model. 
 

https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/various/ultra-punch-man

[Evil Eye]

It's not a bad idea, even if it does seem like a bit of a making lemons from lemonade situation given the oversaturation of special characters, lacking options for unnamed HQ choices, etc. I would agree doing it with super-characters like Guilliman and Lion El'Jonson is a bit much, but I don't think for more minor characters (Adrax Agatone etc) it's a big deal.

[TheArtilleryman]

I prefer it the other way around, using special character models and converting them to make standard characters. I used Brother-Captain Stern as the base model for my Grey Knights Grand Master.

I would, however, be completely fine with you using a bespoke model as a proxy for a special character, as long as it was roughly the right size. This would be especially fine if you had a successor chapter like Novamarines or something and wanted to field Marneus Calgar but call him something different to represent the Novamarines chapter master. Would make much more sense than using the same model.

 

For Lysander, what about something from the Stormcast Eternal range? Lots of hammers and shields there.

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by TheArtilleryman

[Galron]

Some army alternatives write themselves. Space Wolves play perfect for Minotaurs. Arjac is a perfect stand in for the chapter master. The SW dreadnought dude can be equipped exactly like the minotaur special dread.

[Tacitus]

First, 

Quote

However my first creation in this topic was a Kayvaan Shrike, combining a Chaplain models together with Shrike himself with a lot of sawing of legs...arms...and that was it, add in one barrel for the now skull-masked cloaked edgelord to stand on rather than the remains of a bunker wall (adjusting the height of the model does nothing in effect for rules or are so minor if a tournament wouldn't allow it, I likely wouldn't bother if they are that picky).

I'd say the height of the model does matter, it changes what can see him and what he can see. 

 

The second thing I'd say is it depends on the quality and "quantity" of the conversion.  It should be obvious this is Salamander Calgar from the Gravis Armor, double fisted guns, paint job, a few bespoke Salamander (or whatever) things (raised detail and painted graphics) - and assorted other bits like an Iron Halo etc to make it obvious its not just more than an Aggressor, its specifically Calgar. 

[chapter master 454]

You make a valid point about height making a small difference however I would counter argue a slight comical issue with it: Ah-ha, your shrike is out in the open, I have you now! Not so fast scallywag, for he is behind a barricade and within 3" of it and it obscures you vision of him! Nay, it does not,I can see him whole and full! Check again, for part of his tactical bunker wall is cover, thus; he has cover! (consider this a jest. I get your point but I don't think unless you are the sweatest of sweaties, you wouldn't call it out)

Technically, it can be argued the model is being "gamey" by me reducing the height however...I don't think you can do me for removing a bunker wall corner. Not like I took a knight, removed the legs and gave him kataphron tracks instead.

 

And that second point is something I seriously consider. To what extent do I need to go and which ones need a lesser touch. I mean, a fairly simple set of conversion work on the leviathan captain and he's Lysander stand in (shield and hammer over his current naff loadout <-personal opinion). That wouldn't be an extreme modification. However the shrike I have made is a combination of the Chaplain and Shrike kit, with legs and arms sawn off and glued back with deals of care to make them look good. I certainly want to make stand-ins for a number of characters but I feel almost that the amount of conversion needed may not be as heavy as others, but yet would still meet the models load-out look requirement. Not saying I'm going to just take an aggressor and call it calgar (tones of "stuck a feather in his cap and called it a macaroni" there ain't it?), It would require a suitable amount of work, but conversely some of the models are extremely easy to remove their chapter icons from and just paint up in my colours and run it technically (Tor Garadon).

 

Naturally, it would vary from player to player but it is the reason I made this. Curious to see other fraters opinions on this subject as it has a touch of the "power gamer" in it as wnating access to certain characters for benefits, but on the same token I like the idea of having these characters represent characters from my chapter as just having 10 generic captains is incredibly boring, no matter what lore I could write for them.

[Tacitus]

Quote

You make a valid point about height making a small difference however I would counter argue a slight comical issue with it: Ah-ha, your shrike is out in the open, I have you now! Not so fast scallywag, for he is behind a barricade and within 3" of it and it obscures you vision of him! Nay, it does not,I can see him whole and full! Check again, for part of his tactical bunker wall is cover, thus; he has cover! (consider this a jest. I get your point but I don't think unless you are the sweatest of sweaties, you wouldn't call it out)

Technically, it can be argued the model is being "gamey" by me reducing the height however...I don't think you can do me for removing a bunker wall corner. Not like I took a knight, removed the legs and gave him kataphron tracks instead.

It doesn't really matter what makes his head X inches above the ground - barrel, wall section, whatever scenic basing - as long as it remains X inches above the ground remains kosher.

[Wormwoods]

So, I tend to convert just about every character model in my army, and most of the squad leaders, at least a little. I'm not usually so interested in special characters that I would bother to make NAMED SPACE MARINE 7 rather than just make my Captain look cool, but in some cases I've bothered. Inquisitors, for example. I recently made a 'generic' Kyria Draxus from Stormcast, Sister of Battle, GSC, and Mordheim bits.

 

 

Made sure she had all the basic details of the model: Power armour on a non-astartes, a power fist, a weird and non-standard gun. The lack of hair was just a bonus. I think she serves well enough. It does mean she's kind of bad in the only sort of 40K I play, Crusade, because she's still a named character on paper, but that's fine. I didn't want the basic Inquisitor, but that's mostly because I find them a little dull on the tabletop, which isn't a problem with most of the BIG special characters in the other armies I mess around with. God help me, I refuse to care about anything Primarch-y. Bores me to tears. 

[TheArtilleryman]

55 minutes ago, Wormwoods said:

So, I tend to convert just about every character model in my army, and most of the squad leaders, at least a little. I'm not usually so interested in special characters that I would bother to make NAMED SPACE MARINE 7 rather than just make my Captain look cool, but in some cases I've bothered. Inquisitors, for example. I recently made a 'generic' Kyria Draxus from Stormcast, Sister of Battle, GSC, and Mordheim bits.

 

 

Made sure she had all the basic details of the model: Power armour on a non-astartes, a power fist, a weird and non-standard gun. The lack of hair was just a bonus. I think she serves well enough. It does mean she's kind of bad in the only sort of 40K I play, Crusade, because she's still a named character on paper, but that's fine. I didn't want the basic Inquisitor, but that's mostly because I find them a little dull on the tabletop, which isn't a problem with most of the BIG special characters in the other armies I mess around with. God help me, I refuse to care about anything Primarch-y. Bores me to tears. 

Really nice conversion!

Edited December 30, 2023 by TheArtilleryman

[Lord_Ikka]

I use a lot of conversions for my Necron army, specifically my C'tans, as I don't like the humanoid GW ones. They all meet the exact dimensions of the character they are replacing, both in height and base size, and I've never had an issue with anyone. As far as marines go, I do the opposite- I normally use special character for their generic equivalent, so Tor Garadon is just a Gravis Captain with a fist and powersword, while Calgar is a Gravis Captain with twin powerfists. 

 

For me, as long as you tell me what the character is and it is on the appropriate base, I'm fine with you using something unique for a special character. The base requirement is more important for me than height- if your character can see/can't see my stuff then I can/can't see you (height is rarely something that I care about as far as visibility, I think there is little advantage one way or the other), but a wrong base size can mess up auras. While auras aren't quite as big of a deal in 10th as they were in 8th/9th, it can effect the game if your base is bigger or smaller than the original character. Other than that, I encourage people to convert and experiment with their models- its a great part of the hobby that is slowly dying off as GW moves to the "if we don't make it, it doesn't get rules" style. 

[TheArtilleryman]

Just gonna drop these here :

 

 

Space Marine Librarian made from about 5 different marine kits

 

 

Jump captain made from a Sanguinary Guard

 

 

Grey Knight Grand Master made from Brother-Captain Stern (if you want the different weapon options you have to convert something because GW don’t make the models)

 

 

Inquisitor made from a Chaos cultist. Bit rogue using an Eldar power fist :p

 

I no longer like using the base model for my characters at all, and always like to convert. Makes it so much more interesting if your characters are unique.

Edited December 30, 2023 by TheArtilleryman

[Tacitus]

20 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

For me, as long as you tell me what the character is and it is on the appropriate base, I'm fine with you using something unique for a special character. The base requirement is more important for me than height- if your character can see/can't see my stuff then I can/can't see you (height is rarely something that I care about as far as visibility, I think there is little advantage one way or the other), 

Oh I think height makes a bigger difference, especially now.  Lysander rarely cares what he can see.  He has no shooting anyway.  Many of the rest of them have very little shooting - 1 Bolt Pistol shot, or two special pistol shots , a hand flamer etc usually capped at 12" range.  Most characters are more than happy to spend most of the game out of view until it's time to charge. 

[Lord_Ikka]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

Oh I think height makes a bigger difference, especially now.  Lysander rarely cares what he can see.  He has no shooting anyway.  Many of the rest of them have very little shooting - 1 Bolt Pistol shot, or two special pistol shots , a hand flamer etc usually capped at 12" range.  Most characters are more than happy to spend most of the game out of view until it's time to charge. 

That's a valid point. Since most of my counts-as tend to be of the same height anyway, I rarely think about it. I would say that with most characters being either Leaders stuck in a unit or Lone Operatives, hiding away is less of a tactic now. Still useful for some, but most are either un-targetable anyway or in a squad of ablative wounds.

[TheArtilleryman]

5 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

That's a valid point. Since most of my counts-as tend to be of the same height anyway, I rarely think about it. I would say that with most characters being either Leaders stuck in a unit or Lone Operatives, hiding away is less of a tactic now. Still useful for some, but most are either un-targetable anyway or in a squad of ablative wounds.

Yeah but let’s say Shrike and some veterans are standing behind a man-sized wall. Because Shrike is standing on a bunker, he and his whole squad can be targeted. If you convert Shrike to lose his bunker wall, he is then the same height as the other guys and the whole squad is hidden.

 

I think the rule that the whole squad can be obliterated even if you can only see  one guy’s nose is stupid anyway, but that’s the rule we’re stuck with unfortunately, and this is why height/size etc are important in more beardy game circles.

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Yeah but let’s say Shrike and some veterans are standing behind a man-sized wall. Because Shrike is standing on a bunker, he and his whole squad can be targeted. If you convert Shrike to lose his bunker wall, he is then the same height as the other guys and the whole squad is hidden.

 

I think the rule that the whole squad can be obliterated even if you can only see  one guy’s nose is stupid anyway, but that’s the rule we’re stuck with unfortunately, and this is why height/size etc are important in more beardy game circles.

Yeah, but those are the rules, and I would expect things like that are included in the points.  Personally I think its ridiculous that if I add a 3D Printed backpack banner to Marneus Calgar (or assorted Squad Sergeants) he can be mortally wounded by a shot to the ornamental banner pole topper.   But until GW hears and acts on that sort of feedback those are the rules. 

[TheArtilleryman]

2 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Yeah, but those are the rules, and I would expect things like that are included in the points.  Personally I think its ridiculous that if I add a 3D Printed backpack banner to Marneus Calgar (or assorted Squad Sergeants) he can be mortally wounded by a shot to the ornamental banner pole topper.   But until GW hears and acts on that sort of feedback those are the rules. 

I think things like banners are an exception - can’t remember where I read it but I’m fairly sure you have to be able to see the actual guy himself, so adding a banner wouldn’t matter.

[Paladin777]

That was a thing in days of yore. I don't think that's the case now. 

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

I think things like banners are an exception - can’t remember where I read it but I’m fairly sure you have to be able to see the actual guy himself, so adding a banner wouldn’t matter.

Nope any part - radio antenna, banner pole, Imperial Knight Loin cloth - any part. Even the added/optional parts. 

[TheArtilleryman]

4 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Nope any part - radio antenna, banner pole, Imperial Knight Loin cloth - any part. Even the added/optional parts. 

Well that’s just sMaRT .. well done GW

Edited January 1 by TheArtilleryman

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Well that’s just sMaRT .. well done GW

I would imagine most people will/did House-Rule it to at least the original silhouette.  I'd do it for any part that isn't in anyway connected to the "life" of the model., but meh.