Rules Questions

[Valkyrion]

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm proposing this as a potential rule observation;

First Fire fires before movement. 

There is no overwatch rule.

 

That is kinda where I stand on what bugs me so far. I like the game, and I will continue to enjoy the game, and I have not playtested First Fire firing first (alliteration ftw) , but it immediately leapt out as a rule done wrong. 

But the new xpac and more units may well show the order to be proper and correct after all. 

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's definitely viable as a solution. It's current implementation definitely makes it a non option almost all the time. 

[Sherrypie]

14 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

Was Overwatch a thing in old epic systems? My understanding is that Overwatch is something you can do when you can't do anything - so you do it in your opponents turn in IGOUGO systems (or a Reaction in 30k) - 2nd ed 40k I think had you forgo shooting in your turn to shoot in your opponents, for instance.  Does an alternate activation system really need an interrupt? 

 

In Epic: Armageddon, it is and yes, alternating systems benefit from various interruption mechanics in tactically interesting ways.

 

E:A isn't phased like LI or AT are, when a formation (detachment in LI terms) is activated it carries out its order (one of eight, combining moves and attacks in various ways) in full. One of those orders is Overwatch, where the formation doesn't move but can fire at an enemy moving into their view later on. Also gives infantry a bit of cover on open areas, as they're digging in for the moment. As E:A is less about straight kills and more about co-ordinatedly maneuvering into mutually supporting positions, pinning the enemy with preparatory fires and then decisively crushing them in a massed ground assault, having a "nuh-uh!" interrupt that can disrupt some of those steps is a powerful way to fight certain strategies like sudden air charges against backline artillery batteries. Another way this is interesting is in the way battlefield friction is modelled, as in E:A formations need to pass command checks in order to operate as commanded (2+ on a d6 for most forces, 1+ for special forces like marines etc. This is modified by being under fire and so on) but a formation on Overwatch can keep it up onto the next round. This stationary, but reliable, anchoring of defences can help out certain armies that traditionally can't always rely on their forces acting as you'd want them to, like Imperial Guard.

Edited January 14 by Sherrypie

[LameBeard]

15 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm proposing this as a potential rule observation;

First Fire fires before movement. 

There is no overwatch rule.

 

That is kinda where I stand on what bugs me so far. I like the game, and I will continue to enjoy the game, and I have not playtested First Fire firing first (alliteration ftw) , but it immediately leapt out as a rule done wrong. 

But the new xpac and more units may well show the order to be proper and correct after all. 

 

 

I like this idea as more streamlined. Overwatch as an interruption mechanic seems excessive when you have an alternating activation game.

 

However, with Kill Team 2018, one problem was high-density terrain boards, where there was no rule preventing chargers charging around corners to units they couldn’t see. In that game we modified overwatch to work pretty much like it seems to in Legions Imperialis. So it may be terrain in playtesting that has driven the choice. 
 

Can you “charge round corners” in LI?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Just now, LameBeard said:

Can you “charge round corners” in LI?

 

ohhhhh ya.

There's a lot of stuff that prevents LOS in this game, and without judicious use of impassable barely any of it slows or prevents infantry from charging/moving through it. Its very easy to scramble some infantry up the board behind* obstructing terrain or structures and then just charge through them. It's where a lot of complaints of ogryns and veltari come form.

 

*until people get a lot of rapiers or other barrage, it's safer to be behind the LOS blockers rather than be in them.

[LameBeard]

1 minute ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

ohhhhh ya.

There's a lot of stuff that prevents LOS in this game, and without judicious use of impassable barely any of it slows or prevents infantry from charging/moving through it. Its very easy to scramble some infantry up the board behind* obstructing terrain or structures and then just charge through them. It's where a lot of complaints of ogryns and veltari come form.

 

*until people get a lot of rapiers or other barrage, it's safer to be behind the LOS blockers rather than be in them.

So maybe the overwatch rule need be nothing more than: if you were on first fire and you got charged before you shot, you get a free shot at point blank range at the unit that charged you. It can even be done as part of combat resolution and counted towards it, so doesn’t mess up morale or anything like that.  Seems what @Pacific81 said was the rule for one of the earlier versions. 
 

Shows I need to make some terrain. I haven’t found much yet in the middle of my (cheap enough, nice enough, tactically interesting and not too awkward) Venn diagram. Always tricky, because I’m always trying to do Warhammer on the cheap (and failing).

[Interrogator Stobz]

1 hour ago, LameBeard said:

... 
 

Shows I need to make some terrain. I haven’t found much yet in the middle of my (cheap enough, nice enough, tactically interesting and not too awkward) Venn diagram. Always tricky, because I’m always trying to do Warhammer on the cheap (and failing).

Cork tiles, a couple of packs of 5s. Broken into rough rounds etc then stacked into impassable rocky formations.

[Pacific81]

On 1/13/2024 at 8:45 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

According to Pacific it wasn't a thing in the direct inspiration, Space Marine 2. First fire apparently did have some similar functionality allowing you to fire even in combat as a sort of pseudo overwatch.

 

Looking at netepic (also inspired by the same game)first fire gives you access to snap fire, which is pretty much the exact same thing as Overwatch but with a smaller penalty to hit (though netepic doesn't seem to be capped at 6s always hit and go to 7s).

 

So there's always been something to prevent charges from just rolling across the board and shutting down the unit they tag. 

 

 

Yep this is it. Units on First Fire could (in most cases, artillery excepted) shoot at the unit that charged them.

 

But SM2 itself was a lot more streamlined and actually abstract than the new game, which has so much more crunch/granular rules than before.

 

I kind of wish they had taken a leaf from Armageddon's book and just used 'anti-infantry' and 'anti-armour' as stats to add some abstraction, rather than needing great long unit profiles and different loadouts, and a list of special rules that are (when you distill it down) essentially achieving the same thing in a more laborious way.

[Crablezworth]

20 hours ago, LameBeard said:

I like this idea as more streamlined. Overwatch as an interruption mechanic seems excessive when you have an alternating activation game.

 

However, with Kill Team 2018, one problem was high-density terrain boards, where there was no rule preventing chargers charging around corners to units they couldn’t see. In that game we modified overwatch to work pretty much like it seems to in Legions Imperialis. So it may be terrain in playtesting that has driven the choice. 
 

Can you “charge round corners” in LI?

 

That's the issue with how they've done it, it does feel like a bridge too far as the scale of the games played increases, especially if attempting 2v2 game, it's just not a very practical rule if your opponent can yell out at any time "stop what ur doin ima overwatch, oh but please keep moving your models into/through my killzone". Bit much, it gets even stupider with units that move parabolically like jump infantry, I'm now like supposed t hold 4 bases at their apogee while my opponent resolves shooting? Is this mass battle or skirmish cuz this seems stupid lol.

 

 

Overwatch also sorta messed with other mechanics like overwatching planes, again if this was just from first fire it wouldn't be as bad but with advance as well its just dumb. Then you add planes overwatching before being intercepted, it all just feels like stuff eating at itself from both ends that they couldn't decide on. Same way the balance for hitting flyers feels, it's too geared towards higher point balance, ie when there's like 2-4 planes a detachment coming at you, i get the natural 6's thing, but when flyers are taken in detachments of 1's in smaller games its always way too easy to down them, and often with weapons that really strain immersion, like a low rate of fire main battle tank cannon isn't going to shoot down a plane, and there's too many weapons that can do it with ease.