The Old World - pricing and the future

[Marshal Rohr]

The release isn’t indicative of anything really. They announced the game several years ago and it has internally changed gears several times. SGDS is releasing a ruleset and bringing back some old sculpts for two of the most missed factions from Old World and the prices are reflective of the markup they need to meet their margin for doing so. 
 

This launch is an experiment. The Old World isnt a true specialist Game like Heresy or Necromunda or Blood Bowl. It’s the same as Lord of the Rings. GW is putting the minimum amount of resources into it because they can’t accurately gauge interest, and even though it sold well, had huge queues, and is generating a ton of buzz (positive and negative) on social media they don’t know if there is any staying power there. They have Kislev and Cathay, which don’t have old models beyond the Kislev Metals to bring back that accurately reflect their total war incarnation and the risk of launching two new product lines with plastic kits done like the Heresy kits could devastate SG if it fails. 
 

GW execs and management are troglodyte bean counters that punished the Designers for epic failing. There is no reason to expect that to have changed. 

[firestorm40k]

14 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

GW execs and management are troglodyte bean counters that punished the Designers for epic failing.

I take it you mean Epic 40k in 1997? I'd say it's too early to call Legions Imperialis a failure (despite the many naysayers trying to push a narrative that it's failed, which they were always going to do: "it didn't sell out, it's a failure!" "It's sold out, it's a failure!" I'm so bored of seeing those comments ) 

[Halandaar]

45 minutes ago, USNCenturion said:

Notice they held out Dark Elves, was that because Malekith and Dark Elves are too generic now with Marvel? I don’t know but the question is there. 

 

I don't think it is that simple because Lizardmen, Skaven, Daemons, Vampires etc don't have that same baggage and they were all left with legacy lists too. 

 

What I find interesting is that almost all the factions that have been "left out" are the ones that don't really require much new model support (or the re-release of retired kits) to get them playable for Old World because you can still buy their models through AoS. Lizardmen and Vampire Counts basically have completely new model ranges already that you'd just need square bases for,  Skaven are rumoured to be on the cusp of a similar refresh, and the models for Ogres, Daemons and Dark Elves are still largely available. I'm sure there must be a reason to partition these factions off from official support for Old World when they're actually the easiest ones to buy from GW, but I'm damned if I know what it is.

 

 

[ThePenitentOne]

For me, the interesting thing about this is not pricing; it's the dueling single-force launch boxes. In 40k, the launch box has always been two factions. For a lot of the player base, buying a 2 faction box means finding a way to offload the faction you aren't playing. If a single faction launch box existed side-by-side with the regular 2 faction offering, people who don't have a use for a second faction could by the single-faction starter at a lower price.

 

This is somewhat similar to the approach with the most recent KT box separating out the terrain. I chose not to buy the box, because the Scouts don't fit into any of the space marine projects that interest me (Deathwatch and GK). When I saw the lack of terrain, I did expect the price to be lower than Gallowdark stuff, but I didn't expect it to be as low as it is. I expect the 40k release to be a box of 5 scorpions for  $75 CAD, This means that the box costs just $10 CAD more, making the book, Scouts and Scatter Terrain virtually free. And odds are good I'll want 10 Scorpions and I'm guaranteed to need five.

 

I like it when GW finds ways to explore different sales models at low-risk. Easy for me to say- I have no interest in TOW, though Bretonia does offer some Sister/ Ecclesiarchy conversion potential. I think when GW do limited runs designed to sell out, they deprive themselves of valuable sales data that could help them broaden the player base. It's to know whether a terrain heavy kit like Gallowdark would outsell a light kit like Salvation when the runs for both are designed to sell out anyway.

 

 

 

[phandaal]

53 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

I'm sure there must be a reason to partition these factions off from official support for Old World when they're actually the easiest ones to buy from GW, but I'm damned if I know what it is.

 

Probably because they are intended for an AoS update at some point. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The Legacy 

2 hours ago, firestorm40k said:

I take it you mean Epic 40k in 1997? I'd say it's too early to call Legions Imperialis a failure (despite the many naysayers trying to push a narrative that it's failed, which they were always going to do: "it didn't sell out, it's a failure!" "It's sold out, it's a failure!" I'm so bored of seeing those comments ) 

Yeah, the one from the 90s

 

 

The way they are treating Legacy factions is an interesting peek behind the curtain to how they view product lines. People are saying they are kept out of the Old World because they are due for an update (Skaven next summer and Chaos Dwarfs recently confirmed by Whitefang) but the other Old World factions also received an update and get to be included. So either Skaven/Ogres/Dark Elves aren’t getting a Lumineth and Cities of Sigmar style update, and will be getting a very limited number of kits that replace basic troops and elite like Vampires, Lumineth, and a large portion of their army will remain Old World kits or the SGDS was given a list of factions they aren’t allowed to do. 
 

Regardless the new AoS models all work perfectly fine as easy to get Old World models but will quite pricey for big blocks of infantry. 

Edited January 7 by Marshal Rohr

[Halandaar]

43 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Probably because they are intended for an AoS update at some point. 

 

Lizardmen and Vampire Counts have already had their AoS refreshes (to the point that almost their entire 8th Edition WFB roster is available to buy with currently in-production minis), so that obviously wouldn't apply to them, and Chaos Warriors have had a similarly large revamp and yet they are supported by the Old World core rules.

 

Make it make sense.

 

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

1 minute ago, Halandaar said:

 

Lizardmen and Vampire Counts have already had their AoS refreshes (to the point that almost their entire 8th Edition WFB roster is available to buy with currently in-production minis), so that obviously wouldn't apply to them, and Chaos Warriors have had a similarly large revamp and yet they are supported by the Old World core rules.

 

Make it make sense.

 

 

 

It is kind of funny we are going to be able to build Legacy factions substantially easier than supported factions. Kind of like Militia and Daemons in Heresy. 

[Rain]

15 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

 

Lizardmen and Vampire Counts have already had their AoS refreshes (to the point that almost their entire 8th Edition WFB roster is available to buy with currently in-production minis), so that obviously wouldn't apply to them, and Chaos Warriors have had a similarly large revamp and yet they are supported by the Old World core rules.

 

Make it make sense.

 

 

 

It’s probably some kind of bizarre attempt to prevent crossover between AOS and TOW model ranges for the same counterproductive non-reasons as apply to HH and 40k as of 10th. I guess they couldn’t leave out Chaos because it’s such a core faction.

[Noserenda]

30 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

 

Lizardmen and Vampire Counts have already had their AoS refreshes (to the point that almost their entire 8th Edition WFB roster is available to buy with currently in-production minis), so that obviously wouldn't apply to them, and Chaos Warriors have had a similarly large revamp and yet they are supported by the Old World core rules.

 

Make it make sense.

 

 

 

They couldnt do an Old world launch without Chaos warriors and be taken seriously, they were always the most popular faction by a significant margin and are core to the warhammer experience in a way no other individual faction is. Chaos is everywhere too, theyve barely gotten away with Skaven and Vampire counts, trying to do Chaos Warriors as well would sink them.

Reading their new list though, it kinda feels flat and unappealing in a way the other lists ive read do not. Not sure if thats just a mismatch or deliberate of course :D 

[2PlusEasy]

I have four observations:

 

- Beyond some new miniatures, they're charging a premium for miniatures that are 20 years old. I was around when those miniatures were first released: they've easily doubled in price. This is a problem.

 

- SKU bloat. GW are stretched so thinly across as many gaming systems as possible (which as we know is to stamp out competitors who filled gaps that GW created in the first place from, ironically, discontinuing their specialist games a d Warhammer fantasy) and their main systems are so overloaded with factions and sub factions that they can't maintain stock. So the demand is there, but not reasonable (or reasonably affordable) supply which generates a third party market which GW doesn't endorse. This is a problem.

 

- It's easy to say "vote with your wallets." It's harder to convince an indoctrinated fan base to do so. As much as I hate GW as a business, I inevitably always find myself gravitating back towards its games, often just for someone to play. You'd be amazed how many tabletop gamers won't try anything but Warhammer.

 

[Edit] - The penal colony 40% price increase. The new kits are 40% more expensive in Australia then the exchange rate from the British pound. This is ridiculous: no other company in this industry does this.

Edited January 7 by 2PlusEasy

[Rain]

12 minutes ago, 2PlusEasy said:

[Edit] - The penal colony 40% price increase. The new kits are 40% more expensive in Australia then the exchange rate from the British pound. This is ridiculous: no other company in this industry does this.

Honest question, not trying to be a smart. If the price differential is really this bad, why not just buy from eBay stores based in the UK/US/EU and have it shipped down under to the land of the crocs and kookaburras? Do most such sellers not ship to Australia for some reason?

[Orion]

As much as I often find Australian pricing issues overstated, at least in comparison to the US which is often just as bad or worse than Australia when you account for the fact that the US pays tax on top of list price, this time Aus got screwed.

The reality I think will just be slow adoption then put on life support.

Could be wrong though.

[Orion]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

Honest question, not trying to be a smart. If the price differential is really this bad, why not just buy from eBay stores based in the UK/US/EU and have it shipped down under to the land of the crocs and kookaburras? Do most such sellers not ship to Australia for some reason?

It varies significantly from model to model. Occasionally I've seen stuff end up cheaper in Australia than even the UK.
And yeah, pretty sure a condition of stocking GW models is to not sell outside your region. So they're not supposed to, at least to keep GW happy. (Someone correct me if I'm mistaken on that)

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

It’s probably some kind of bizarre attempt to prevent crossover between AOS and TOW model ranges for the same counterproductive non-reasons as apply to HH and 40k as of 10th. I guess they couldn’t leave out Chaos because it’s such a core faction.

 

Yeah, that is my thought on why certain factions were chosen for TOW and others are "legacy."

 

Some, like Lizardmen and Ogres (excuse me, """Ogors""" ) were already ported over to AoS in a big way. Others may be due for inclusion there.

 

For example - the rumor mill says that Chaos Dwarves are coming for AoS in the near future, hence their exclusion from TOW.

 

The most we can infer from this in relation to 40k is that Games Workshop really does like to keep their product lines separate.

[Brother Tyler]

There's way too much discussion of The Old World/Age of Sigmar and not enough about pricing and how that relates to the games in the Warhammer 40,000 setting.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't think there's much to compare to, as the equivalent has already come first and is ahead of this schedule.

 

Horus Heresy 2E started with FW resin everywhere as the existing range was there. Some new kits came out, such as MK VI in plastic and the Kratos. Over time, the Legiones Astartes got vehicles, which have a lot of coverage per sprue, replacing the existing FW resin range for 'core' units. Now, we're hitting Solar Auxilia, and later, Mechanicum, Talons, etc., as well as a lot of the old characters replaced. Older plastic kits, such as the MK III and maybe soon the MK IV are being replaced at a year and a half or so in.

 

The same will happen there, with the existing range back, and it over time consolidated over to newer plastic and FW resin.

 

For plastic kits, they're following the same thing 30k has done, which is double the box size for significantly less than doubling the box price.

 

As for material pricing, white metal models are expensive, especially larger ones like cavalry. One need only to look at metal cavalry for MESBG to see some fairly equivalent prices on that. So I do not think any new pricing model has happened.

 

In this case, they're going to build up the core community of existing players and a few coming in to get a solid foundation again, then later at the next cycle in a few years it'll be the jumping point for new players. Same really for Heresy, there was quite a bit of buy in that was maybe unexpected, but the core community remains and there's a much stronger chance more people will stick with it at 3E when all that stuff is already part of the main range.

Edited January 8 by WrathOfTheLion

[Emperor Ming]

24 minutes ago, Brother Tyler said:

There's way too much discussion of The Old World/Age of Sigmar and not enough about pricing and how that relates to the games in the Warhammer 40,000 setting.

[2PlusEasy]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

Honest question, not trying to be a smart. If the price differential is really this bad, why not just buy from eBay stores based in the UK/US/EU and have it shipped down under to the land of the crocs and kookaburras? Do most such sellers not ship to Australia for some reason?

 

All good, I appreciate your honesty.

 

GW have fierce regional locking policies. UK and US sellers actually can't sell to Aus / NZ customers (without getting caught) if they want to keep stocking GW products.

 

[Edit] I assure you, if it was an option most Australians would probably do it. "Support your local" is becoming harder and harder to do with annual 6% price raises. 

Edited January 8 by 2PlusEasy

[Orion]

2 hours ago, 2PlusEasy said:

 

All good, I appreciate your honesty.

 

GW have fierce regional locking policies. UK and US sellers actually can't sell to Aus / NZ customers (without getting caught) if they want to keep stocking GW products.

 

[Edit] I assure you, if it was an option most Australians would probably do it. "Support your local" is becoming harder and harder to do with annual 6% price raises. 

 

US prices suck anyway

 

 

$2 difference after you remove tax.

 

[WrathOfTheLion]

US prices don't include sales tax for the state their in, so that ends up more between $69-70 USD in most states after that is accounted for.

 

As for pricing model, it's not too much different than in Australia as you show there. However, currency exchange rates are not necessarily equivalent to ability to purchase, so we'd also have to take into account the average pay and really disposable income between America and Australia to get a more accurate picture. It's not really a single-variable comparison.

Edited January 8 by WrathOfTheLion

[Marshal Rohr]

The OECD has an online calculator you can use to for free. The US and Aus are comparable at middle income brackets converted into USD. 

[MithrilForge]

Postage to Australia is horrendous … sometimes as much or even more than the cost of the models themselves…. 
 

 

[Cyrox]

18 hours ago, LSM said:

Worth mentioning: Tomb Guard are being sold for £47.50, for a box of twenty.

 

I forget the exact pricing (and have given up trying to find it, after fifteen minutes of poking around on google), but I'm pretty sure that in 2015 a box of ten was more than £23.75. So their per-model price has gone down.

 

(I have found one source that lists the price of Tomb Guard as "$41.25" (which I assume is USD). The current price is $80 for twenty. The same source says a Necrosphinx was $53.75, now $75, and Necroserpents were $54.50, now $60.)

 

When factoring in inflation, that's "GW standards" reasonable.

 

We've also seen with a lot of 40k MtO stuff that the price of GW metal is extremely high nowadays. Remember: less than a year ago they charged £40 for the ten man Armageddon Steel Legion squad, £19 for single models (the Commissar, Plasma Gunner, Officers), and £67 for a Lascannon Squad (three models). Ushabti at £52.50 is staggeringly high... but it's not new. I don't think it means anything for the future of GW pricing.

 

Yeah I managed to order 20 Tomb Guard on Saturday for £36.00 (third party retailer), so some of it is priced ok and it actually less than what I expected.

 

 

[Redcomet]

13 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Probably because they are intended for an AoS update at some point. 

Yep this. The AoS team and the ToW team have separate PNL, profits and loss, sheets so are engaged in a small war over who gets profit from what ranges. So much so that there is antagonism between the branches. The factions not available for ToW have either, or will get, new ranges for AoS. 
It is a really dumb way to run a company, but here we are.

Also still a flex to brag in your yearly earnings report that you still have unspent manufacturing capacity, and still CHOOSE not to make enough product. 
They are actively leaving money on the table.