10th company organisation.

[jimbo1701]

Hi all. 
 

Trying to find the answer to this so wondered if anyone a) has it and b) can point  me to any resources. 
 

Since the advent of primaris company compositions have been made much more confusing but originally 10th company was fully a scout company. Then primaris happened and Phobos became a thing. My question is where in the companies do Phobos units lay (ie all 10th or can any company opt for units to switch to them like with gravis) and is the 10th therefore exclusively scouts again now? Or is the 10th Phobos and scouts exist outside the structure now? Or a bit of both? I’m so confused. Thanks. 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Unless it's been changed yet again, 10th cannot be exclusively Scouts because the rank and file in 10th are supposed to be one hundred Vanguard Marines while Scout squads can be added on top without counting against the company tally.

 

And of course, "Vanguard" should more properly be "Phobos" but we have to shoehorn Suppressors in there even though they're not sneaky Marines, just the first Marines to come running when the sneaky Marines call.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

As to resources, from the Shadowspear mini-codex:

 

"In accordance with those recent amendments to the Codex Astartes, the 10th Company of each Chapter should maintain a permanent complement of one hundred Vanguard Space Marines under the command of a Captain - known as the Master of Reconnaisance - and supported by two Lieutenants."

 

And from the subsequent 2019 Codex:

 

"The Codex is less prescriptive regarding the disposition, size and usage of the Scout Company than it is about the other elements of a Chapter. The core of this company consists of ten squads of Vanguard Space Marines, but its total strength can include any number of additional neophytes still training to ascend to the rank of full-fledged battle-brother."

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

I missed your other question about Phobos in other companies but in theory, a Battleline or Close Support or Fire Support squad is supposed to conform to that role first and occasionally vary their armor as appropriate. So a battle company could have either a dedicated Fire Support squad which occasionally dons Phobos armor and deploys as Eliminators or they could have one of the squads from 10th seconded to it. Likewise, the reserve companies have been stated to include Phobos squads corresponding to their force org slot.

 

But 10th is definitely not "exclusively Scouts again" - the latest Codex still asserts the "standing force of ten Vanguard squads" approach with Scouts being an added layer.

 

Which you'd THINK would make them eventually consider changing the name of the *Scout* Company but I guess these things take time.

 

Edited January 14 by Lord Nord in Gravis Armour

[Blindhamster]

if you look at blood angels codex, initiates are actually listed in addition to the core 10th company forces.

[MoriyaSchism]

3 hours ago, Lord Nord in Gravis Armour said:

I missed your other question about Phobos in other companies but in theory, a Battleline or Close Support or Fire Support squad is supposed to conform to that role first and occasionally vary their armor as appropriate. So a battle company could have either a dedicated Fire Support squad which occasionally dons Phobos armor and deploys as Eliminators or they could have one of the squads from 10th seconded to it. Likewise, the reserve companies have been stated to include Phobos squads corresponding to their force org slot.

 

But 10th is definitely not "exclusively Scouts again" - the latest Codex still asserts the "standing force of ten Vanguard squads" approach with Scouts being an added layer.

 

Which you'd THINK would make them eventually consider changing the name of the *Scout* Company but I guess these things take time.

 

This post made me remember my favourite chapter, the Exorcists. They have three Scout companies. The new Codex structure and the Vanguard company means they have an additional 200 fully fledged battle brothers instead of an extra complement of initiated Aspirants and supporting officers. The terrible White Dwarf article they got barely addressed that issue and just tacked on covert operations as one of their specialties.

[KaosRaptor]

3 hours ago, MoriyaSchism said:

This post made me remember my favourite chapter, the Exorcists. They have three Scout companies. The new Codex structure and the Vanguard company means they have an additional 200 fully fledged battle brothers instead of an extra complement of initiated Aspirants and supporting officers. The terrible White Dwarf article they got barely addressed that issue and just tacked on covert operations as one of their specialties.

 

High-five for best chapter, brother.

 

That seems silly, given the whole reason they had extra scout companies was because most of the scouts didn't survive the daemonic posses- *ahem*, initiation rites. Makes no sense that they would now have an excess of full-fledged marines.

 

Just another piece of fudged lore I'll have to ignore 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Well, remember that Guilliman's revisions to the codex aren't 100% binding on any chapter that doesn't want to implement them. In the case of the Exorcists, I would suspect they retained the previous approach of three companies made up entirely (or almost entirely) of Scouts rather than the new Vanguard hotness. This is especially true considering that they'd have probably refused any new Primaris recruits and insisted on growing their own. So as you said, they likely never had a surplus given their standard attrition rates. At best, they might aspire to get to a point where they could have a new all-Vanguard company on top of the existing twelve-company structure where three of those companies are scouts. But that would be an uphill battle unless they experienced a substantial change in their "recruiting" process.

 

Meanwhile, if they really wanted to deploy Phobos squads, they could suit up some of the reserve or battle company squads in that armor pattern assuming they've sailed the Rubicon.

[jimbo1701]

Thank you for the replies, esp lord nord. 
 

Indeed seems as if the relatively well payed out organisational structures of old are now much more grey. Helps me with deciding what trim to paint on my Phobos marines though. 
 

cheers. 

[MoriyaSchism]

One small thing I realized if you're going about making an army in the post-Great Rift setting is that now we have three ways of looking at Codex compliance. Codex divergent chapters, Codex compliant following the new revised text and Codex Orthodox. By Codex Orthodox I would refer to Codex compliant chapters who refuse to use the new revisions and stick to the organization that predates the return of Guilliman. I know it's hard to refuse the word of the Primarch, but I'm sure there are some people in the Imperium who are just that stubborn.

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, MoriyaSchism said:

One small thing I realized if you're going about making an army in the post-Great Rift setting is that now we have three ways of looking at Codex compliance. Codex divergent chapters, Codex compliant following the new revised text and Codex Orthodox. By Codex Orthodox I would refer to Codex compliant chapters who refuse to use the new revisions and stick to the organization that predates the return of Guilliman. I know it's hard to refuse the word of the Primarch, but I'm sure there are some people in the Imperium who are just that stubborn.

I think you've got a tough circle to square finding a chapter that reveres Robute so much they strictly/literally follow the original Codex but not the one revised by Robute.

[MoriyaSchism]

23 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

I think you've got a tough circle to square finding a chapter that reveres Robute so much they strictly/literally follow the original Codex but not the one revised by Robute.

I think the Novamarines would be a likely candidate, but I'm not entirely sure. Considering how there are chapters out there who see the original Codex Astartes as a holy text it's an interesting idea to think about.

[Tacitus]

Yeah, but they're in the Primarch Wrote It So It's Law camp - ergo when the Primarch rewrites it, its re-law.   The two roads that get you there that I can think of are:

 

The original book is law because it was written before our time and (Wordy version of We Hate Change)

 

The Original Book is Law because (Wordy version of they don't belive the resurrected Bobby G is/still-is The Real™ Bobby G and his rewrite is thus tainted). 

 

And that would be an interesting inner struggle.  We love Bobby G, but that aint Bobby G as we take orders from the High Council on Terra led by Bobby G The Returned.