Any chance we get a new scout bike type unit?

[Metzombie]

8 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

If it's the in-universe document then I would say that 'codex-compliant' is a spectrum that people in-universe will bicker about even more than we do. The Salamanders have only 7 companies. That's clearly not codex-compliant but they are covered in the Codex: Space Marines. The Iron Hands have their Clan Company that are completely self contained units; each company has it's own scouts, their own Terminator squad leaders. This is also clearly not codex compliant. The Exorcists have 12 companies, 3 of which are scouts. They are also included in Codex: Space Marines but are clearly not codex compliant.

You can do the same in the other direction too.

Dark Angels have their own book but are codex compliant. The numbering of their companies is a bit diffrent but  I do not think the Codex is very strict about that.

Blood Angels have also will get a book, but are codex compliant. The may prefer more aggressive tactics, but not to such a degree it would be outside the codex. Death Company are a bit outside the codex but are not a permanent additon to their structure.

Only Space Wolves and Black Templars are non-compliant.

[jaxom]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Do you not know what codex compliant means?

Assume that I do not. What does codex compliant mean?

[Tokugawa]

CSM 10th updates announced. Chaos bikers DON'T receive a new kit, although desperately need a new one. 

 

Necron destroyer, Ravenwing, then CSM. Conclusion could be made: GW show no love to bikes in 10th.

[Tacitus]

16 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Do you not know what codex compliant means?

Your personal version of it?  No, not really.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

12 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Your personal version of it?  No, not really.

It has nothing to do with ‘personal version’

 

people claiming DA and BA are compliant are undeniably wrong.

 

ravenwing and deathwing are very much significant deviations from the codex astartes.

locking blood thirsty psychopaths up in a tower, is an extreme deviation from the codex astartes, one that would likely get near any chapter from any other lineage to view them as heretics, and that’s before we even get to the whole sending suicide squads of crazy beserkers into the middle of the enemy thing.

 

there is no reasonable way anyone can claim that the BA and DA are compliant.

[AutumnEffect]

17 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

It has nothing to do with ‘personal version’

 

people claiming DA and BA are compliant are undeniably wrong.

 

ravenwing and deathwing are very much significant deviations from the codex astartes.

locking blood thirsty psychopaths up in a tower, is an extreme deviation from the codex astartes, one that would likely get near any chapter from any other lineage to view them as heretics, and that’s before we even get to the whole sending suicide squads of crazy beserkers into the middle of the enemy thing.

 

there is no reasonable way anyone can claim that the BA and DA are compliant.

 

You still haven't addressed arguments and questions that several other people have put forward.

 

If you cannot articulate what the Codex Astartes is or at least which one you are even referring to then you cannot make any claims about what is or isn't 'codex compliant', as worthless a term as that is.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I think most have the viewpoint that "codex compliancy" isn't strictly a binary, but rather a scale. Otherwise sentences like "The ultramarines are some of the most avid adherents of the doctrines of the codex astartes" or what have you make little sense.

 

DA and BA are adherents in the sense that they largely have the same chapter structure as the ultramarines: they have 10 companies of 100 marines each headed by a captain. New neophytes are organized into scout squads and are part of the 10th company.

 

BA having an additional company structure that adopts those fallen to the black rage or DA having unique names and equipment for their first and second companies are certainly divergences, but not on the level of say SW and BT who do none of the things above.

 

Of course the above isnt entirely accurate anymore since primaris, but still illustrates the point.

[jaxom]

 As fun as this has all been, if you've not had the chance to read Insignium Astartes by Alan Merret, I do recommend it. It's the most detailed description of the in-universe Codex Astartes ever published by Games Workshop. I've got some excerpts to share. If one wants to consider how Primaris squads fit, just replace Tactical with Battleline, Assault with Close Support, and Devastator with Fire Support... it's what GW did.

 

Quote

In the 41st Millennium there are relatively few of the original Codex Chapters surviving as they have been either destroyed in battle or disbanded. Through the ages other Chapters have developed organisations and heraldries that are so variant with the Codex that they can no longer be considered as such. In truth most Chapters retain the basic organisation and markings or something close to the original though only a few can claim to be Codex Chapters.

 

In second edition, this was part of why the Ultramarines stood out. Unlike the vast majority of Chapters, who only retained the basic organisation and markings of the Codex, the Ultramarine followed their copy of it to the the letter.

 

Quote

The original Codex was compiled approximately ten thousand years ago in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy. It is not known what form the original took: it may have been a manuscript or it may have been a compilation of holo-files or even some combination. Of course manuscript copies were made and distributed. The oldest surviving copy of the Codex is reputed to be the Apocrypha of Skaros. The Liber Arcanum of Grand Marshall Tolof and the Holo-Record 442/33508; Gant Manuscript v2 of the Ceris Archive have some claim to this honour as well. Over the millennia the copies have been copied and recopied many times in order to preserve them. Inevitably, mistakes occur and so it is unlikely that any two copies of the Codex will be identical. Furthermore, the work is constantly being reanalysed and reinterpreted. The original prose style of Roboute is at best archaic and in some cases almost unintelligible. This has led to many varied interpretations over the centuries and to many situations where two entirely different doctrines have been legitimately claimed as 'official Codex' at the same time.

 

A nice touch of historiographic accuracy. It also lets GW circle the square when it comes to any contradictions in their own lore.

 

Quote

The Codex Astartes has a large section devoted to the organisation of a Space Marine Chapter. It states that a Chapter should consist of ten fighting companies each numbering a hundred Space Marines. Each Company consists of ten squads of ten warriors of which one is a Sergeant. In addition to the squads each Company has its own Captain, Chaplain, Apothecary and Standard Bearer.... In theory, the actual number of combatants in a Company can exceed the notional one hundred Space Marines noted by the Codex. However in practice the Companies are rarely at full strength as constant battle takes its toll and replacements are not always available to fill the ranks.

 

First, and perhaps the most important part of  "basic organisation" compliance. As @AutumnEffect noted, the Salamanders do not meet this requirement. Neither do the Space Wolves, but the other seven First Founding Chapters do have ten companies of ten squads of ten warriors of which one is a Sergeant; each led by a Captain (or semantically different title), with a Chaplain, Apothecary, and Standard Bearer. From in-universe lore, it appears that the total number of brothers-under-arms is what the Inquisition is primarily concerned about when it comes to Codex Compliance (for example, the legion-building charge against the Astral Claws). The Iron Snakes are not organized into companies, but are not being pilloried because they don't exceed normal, nominal Chapter strength. Other items that tend to catch the Inquisition's attention are more issues of general heresy (like the Knights of Blood, for example). 

 

Quote

The Codex stipulates that a Chapter should reserve one of its Companies for its most experienced warriors and that they should be exclusively trained in the use of Terminator armour. Although the Codex is not clear about which Company this should be, the First Company is invariably chosen for this honour. The Company can be deployed as Veteran Squads or as Terminator Squads. This is the Chapter's most awesome combat element and it is rare for the entire Company to be fielded en masse. Most often the elite units of Veteran and Terminator Squads are attached to the other Companies or formed into smaller task forces for special operations.

 

Hence (despite @Inquisitor_Lensoven's assertion) why the Deathwing in 2nd -4th editions were "codex-compliant;" they still within the specifics of the Codex Astartes. Unusual in its common deployment as an entire Company? Yes, but not against the Codex. I think it was 5th edition in the Ward Codex: Space Marines when First Companies were more commonly described as taking the field in task force size strength. At that point, the Deathwing, who were already a-okay by the Codex Astartes, became even less special.

 

Quote

Of the remaining Companies the Codex states that eight shall be divided into the 'Companies of Battle' and the 'Companies of Reserve'. Again the ancient tome is not clear about how many of each type of Company there should be or rather the various copies of the Codex do not agree on this point. In some versions the Companies are referred to as 'Companies of the First Line' and 'Companies of the Second Line' and in others as the 'Companies of the Van' and 'Companies of the Rear'. Traditionally, however, the Codex Chapters organise the eight main units into four Battle Companies and four Reserve Companies.

 

This was how GW originally spun the Dark Angels. In-universe, everyone just assumed the 2nd Company was a Reserve Company. Again, unusual but technically within the remit of the Codex Astartes. Only the Dark Angels (and Bastelek Grim, RIP) knew they had one less Battle Company.

 

Quote

Battle Companies comprise a mix of squad designations, usually six Tactical Squads, two Assault Squads and two Devastator Squads. This can vary however and some Chapters may organise include more or less Assault and Devastator Squads but never more than the number of Tactical Squads in the Company. The Battle Companies form the main battle lines and generally bear the brunt of the fighting. A single Battle Company acts as the core of a battlefield formation that may include attached elements from the Veteran, Scout and Reserve Companies as well as, armoured units from the Chapter's Armoury. The Battle Company Captains are incredibly adept at incorporating these ancillary troops into their formations and maximising their effectiveness. This flexibility and adaptability gives the Space Marines a great advantage and means that they are able to meet almost any threat and react quickly and efficiently.

 

Nothing unusual here. For a while this was the area of largest Codex discrepancy. Oh, this Chapter prefers close combat? They have three assault squads and one devastator squad in their Battle Companies.

 

Quote

The Reserve Companies are comprised entirely of squads of the same designation. Two of the Reserve Companies are Tactical Companies each often Tactical Squads. These are intended to act as a general reserve for the Chapter and may be used to reinforce the main line, launch diversionary attacks or counter enemy manoeuvres. In addition, one of the Companies is also trained to fight as Bike Squadrons and the other is trained to fight from Land Speeders. This increases the flexibility of the reserve and provides the Chapter with mass light vehicle formations if required. Elements of the Tactical Reserve may be seconded to the main Battle Companies to act as reinforcements.

 

Again, nothing that hasn't been repeated in the years since. If I remember correctly, originally, the Dark Angels 6th and 7th Companies only deployed as Tactical Squads. Because they were deployed supporting other companies, no one in universe caught on that the Dark Angels had more Tactical Squads as a Chapter than they should have if the 2nd Company was the Reserve Company. I don't remember if that was ever changed.

 

Quote

One of the Reserve Companies is an Assault Company comprising of ten Assault Squads. This is the Chapter's most mobile unit and is deployed in situations where a lot of hand-to-hand combat is anticipated or where speed of deployment is advantageous. The entire Company may be equipped with jump packs.

 

The last Reserve Company is the Devastator Company. This unit comprises ten Devastator Squads. The Devastator Company is used to anchor defence points and to provide long range fire support. It is also useful in countering enemy armoured vehicles formations.

 

Absolutely normal and nothing has really changed.

 

Quote

The last or tenth Company is referred to in the Codex as the Scout Company. In some Chapters this Company acts as a training battalion since their Scouts are generally younger, less experienced warriors who are in the process of becoming fully fledged Space Marines. However, in other Chapters the Scout Company includes troops who are every bit as experienced as their more armoured brethren in the main Companies. Not withstanding this all of the Tenth Company's squads are armed and armoured as Scouts. There is no formal size for a Scout Company as the rate of recruitment to a Chapter is not fixed. Scouts are relatively lightly armed and armoured and have a variety of combat roles. They provide the main line Companies with recon capability and can infiltrate the enemy lines, sabotaging supply lines and disrupting communications.

 

As above, though the largest of the changes if one considers Primaris. There is technically no cap on the number of Vanguard squads because there is no size cap on the 10th Company. Yay rules-lawyering?

 

What about the Blood Angels and the Death Company? Out-of-universe we know they exist and their existence falls outside the structure of the Codex Astartes and, though they are stricken from the list of living Battle-Brothers, technically raises the Chapter's numbers above the normal variation of 1000 plus or minus some. In-universe, we have this from the Codex Astartes:

 

Quote

The Codex provides for a number of variations on this basic system and also suggests that each Chapter periodically revise its tactical markings in order to confound the enemy. This has led to many differences between the many Codex Chapters. It also explains why it is that some Chapters have varied their appearance over the course of millennia.

 

It is straightforward to think people see the Death Company and just think the Blood Angels have some squads changing up the heraldry for tactical purposes.

 

Okay, what was the point of all this? Partly it was because I don't want to assert knowledge. Partly is was because I want to make sure everyone is on the same page given the lack of context and lack of specificity from some of the previous portions of conversation.

 

I don't have time right now to finish the post, but my next one will be about how the Not-Big-Four fit into all this.

Edited March 22 by jaxom