New Dark Angel Supplement - Appropriate Power or Not?

[jaxom]

Basically, do you think the Design Team:

a) made Marines+1

b) made side-grade Detachments and units that are not too powerful?

c) made Marines-1

[Karhedron]

Given that DAs can use everything in the regular SM Codex, they really cannot be considered Marines-1 since they have not lost anything. To me they look like a side-grade in terms of rules. Some popular options from the Index and earlier editions have been lost and that will definitely smart for players with existing collections.

 

The real issue is that the points look like they were written as per 10th edition launch values. Some stuff like the DW Knights are almost hilariously overcosted. Assuming they get a Day 1 MFM issue (as most armies have done) to bring them into line then I think they will be fine.

[Orange Knight]

Ultimately they are still Marines +1.

 

They get to use all the detachments and rules the generic chapters can access. Even if most DA specific units are underwhelming, there are still some that are great and offer unique options that could perform well.

 

I also wouldn't be too concerned with how strong they are or aren't at this exact moment. GW will release a new PDF with point values in the coming week and it could have a significant impact. 

[Tacitus]

Except part of what they're missing are Special Character vs Special Character and Unit to Detachment Thematic Synergy. 

 

In the first place even Apples to Apples, Index DA are less than Supplement DA.  They've lost several units from the Index, and some of the units that still exist do so in a lesser version of themselves.   The Lion lost "Beatstick" points both vs his previous incarnation and Bobby G.  He lost durability.   He lost D2 Sweep into D1 Sweep.  The Plasma Battery on the Vengeance lost D2/D3OC for D1/D2OC.  The Ravenwing lost their Jink save/rule for a bespoke 5++ on Ravenwing Only units like the planes, speeders and bikes - but there's as yet no rule I see to give the 5++ to Ravenwing Outriders.   Or to increase the OC stat of Outriders that have become Battle Line.  The Ravenwing Command Squad is no longer a Command Squad but instead a quasi-leader model - ostensibly to replace the lieutenant/Talonmaster.  However as near as I can tell it does not have the Lieutenant wording that allows double dipping leaders - i.e. Captain + (Other) - so you can't do Sammael + Command Squad + Black Knights.  The new Inner Circle Companion Unit only really synergizes with Azrael.

 

The end result is their special stuff is worse than it was before they got a book, and does less than the stuff everybody gets.  DA players got screwed with their pants on.

[Orange Knight]

I can see that some things have been reduced in power, but until we see the final points such descussions are ultimately based on assumptions. If the Lion is suddenly costed at 300 points or under, then the argument about his reduced efficacy is moot.

 

As for the chapter, compared to others, I'd say they are still in a good place. They can create the best biker units, they have better Terminators, and Azrael is simply one of the best named heroes in any Marine range.

 

The Companions, whilst inferior to Bladeguard, do offer a lot of additional flexibility. For example - they can be attached to a Librarian and they benefit from the Invul provided. This is an option that Imperial Fists, Salamanders, Ultramarines etc simply don't have.

 

The Black Templar continue to have the best chapter specific range as of this moment. I am also of the opinion that the Dark Angel range, much like that of other chapters, is not yet complete. I expect we'll see a Primaris Ezekiel, Lysander and Sicarius at some point.

Edited January 21 by Orange Knight

[Tacitus]

14 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

 

The Companions, whilst inferior to Bladeguard, do offer a lot of additional flexibility. For example - they can be attached to a Librarian and they benefit from the Invul provided. This is an option that Imperial Fists, Salamanders, Ultramarines etc simply don't have.

 

I have a list with Tiggy + 6 BGV that's a 3+, 4++ and 4++ vs Mortals and Psychic and the -1 to get hit.  Realistically the only reason to run Tiggy + BGV is the layered defenses  -1 to hit, 4++, 4+++, and his freebie strats.   A 0CP Freebie Coutner Offensive and/or Heroic Intervention out of a non-Captain unit has some value.

 

Zeke and 6 ICC have 3+, no ++, and a 4+++ only against psychic not Mortals for +1A.  And no Freebie Strats  If you attach a non-epic Libby, you get the 4++ but you lose out on the extra attacks of Zeke and still don't have the 4+++ vs Mortals or the Freebie Strats

 

Most importantly you also lose out on the Captain, and the Lieutenant attachments.  Az, LT, and 6 ICC are about the only syergizing they can do.  Az gives them Sustained Hits 1, and the 4++ BGV have, the LT gives them Lethal 1, and the ability to fall back and shoot/charge.   Adding Just a Libby for the 4++ - to protect Just the Libby... ?   Its not bad, but its not good either.  I'm not sure what you'd use that for that you couldn't find something better for cheaper.  You could use that for the Primarch Screen, but I'd rather use Infils + Phobos Libby for the really big Sad Trombone.  If you're beatsticking, you're better off with the T6 Aggressors, or the Az(or Cap)/LT/ICC (or BGV) combo. 

 

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I can see that some things have been reduced in power, but until we see the final points such descussions are ultimately based on assumptions. If the Lion is suddenly costed at 300 points or under, then the argument about his reduced efficacy is moot.

Not really.  He's now arguably worse than Bobby G - and while I'm a long time UM Player still enjoying being top dog - that aint right.  Guilliman should be a force multiplier and (comparatively) minor beat stick while the Lion should be a beatstick and (comparatively) minor force multiplier.   

[Orange Knight]

I think the Lion is superior for the simple reasons of better durability, deep striking and fighting first. 

 

The weakness of both is ultimately they are expensive single models that can effectively only engage one unit at a time in close range.

 

Both would be far better if they were cheaper, could join units and ride in transports. If it was up to me, the loyalist Primarchs would be more comparable to Abaddon in the way they function and their profile.

 

As for everything you mentioned above - sure, you could make some optimised unit combinations from generic units, and they all as readily available to the Dark Angels as they are to any other chapter. My point about the DA having the best bikers, Terminators and chapter master remains.

[Karhedron]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

The Companions, whilst inferior to Bladeguard, do offer a lot of additional flexibility. For example - they can be attached to a Librarian and they benefit from the Invul provided. This is an option that Imperial Fists, Salamanders, Ultramarines etc simply don't have.

 

Companions can also have an Apothecary attached (I think) making them the only Bodyguard unit that can bring models back. 

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

Companions can also have an Apothecary attached (I think) making them the only Bodyguard unit that can bring models back. 

The Ravenwing Command Squad can as well - I'm not sure a half squad of "tactical" marines (T4, W2/3, no Invuln) that can bring back one model a turn while losing more than that for lack of an invuln is really a win.   With that said it still only really feeds into the Azzy gimmick giving the ICC a 4++ who now regenerate, and don't have a double-up from the Lieutenant - because you can't double up a Libby and an Apothecary. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

14 hours ago, jaxom said:

Basically, do you think the Design Team:

a) made Marines+1

b) made side-grade Detachments and units that are not too powerful?

c) made Marines-1

If DA can indeed use everything that exists in codex space marines as well as their own stuff, they realistically can at worst be a side grade.

[Tacitus]

3 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

If DA can indeed use everything that exists in codex space marines as well as their own stuff, they realistically can at worst be a side grade.

Again, not really - if DA can use everything in the main codex (which they can't, they don't get Calgar, Tiggy, etc) its not a sidegrade if they're Blue Marines in Green because they're not using any of their bespoke stuff, they're not a side grade, they're a clone. 

[Orange Knight]

Sure, we all know there are chapter specific options that can't be mixed and matched.

 

Are you suggesting that the Dark Angels, a faction with a very big range of chapter specific options, is in a worse position than other chapters such as the Ultramarines, White Scars or Imperial Fists?

 

I am happy to agree that certain characters tied to one chapter or another might well be better that others - as you pointed out with your Tigurius vs Ezekiel comparison, but such instances can't be viewed in vacuum.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

The Ravenwing Command Squad can as well - I'm not sure a half squad of "tactical" marines (T4, W2/3, no Invuln) that can bring back one model a turn while losing more than that for lack of an invuln is really a win.   With that said it still only really feeds into the Azzy gimmick giving the ICC a 4++ who now regenerate, and don't have a double-up from the Lieutenant - because you can't double up a Libby and an Apothecary. 

 

ICCs are a lot tougher than Tactical Marines. They have 3W and the -1 to-Hit makes them significantly more durable, even before you add Characters. I freely admit Azzy works better with these guys than almost anyone else.

[Tacitus]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Sure, we all know there are chapter specific options that can't be mixed and matched.

 

Are you suggesting that the Dark Angels, a faction with a very big range of chapter specific options, is in a worse position than other chapters such as the Ultramarines, White Scars or Imperial Fists?

 

I am happy to agree that certain characters tied to one chapter or another might well be better that others - as you pointed out with your Tigurius vs Ezekiel comparison, but such instances can't be viewed in vacuum.

That's pretty much what was being done.   Because DA have extra stuff - as if the other chapters don't have chapter specific stuff, DA must be Marines +1 - And yes, I'm pretty sure the Ultramarines are in better shape than Dark Angels.   Bobby is better than Lion.  I'm not sure Azrael + ICC are appreciably better  (or vice versa) than Calgar + BGV but I'm also 6 of one half dozen of the other comparing Calgar and Azrael.  I think they're pretty even.   Tiggy beats Zeke.  9 times out of 10 (or better) Sicarius and Ventris are both better than Lazarus. 

 

I don't think the Deathwing Knights are as dead as people are saying, but they're not leaping off the page either.   The Ravenwing CS+Knights are far more interesting than the Deathwing Knights. 

[Orange Knight]

Maybe! And if the Ultramarines are better, is that a problem? Both chapters are better than the Imperial Fists lol.

 

We don't know the final points, no one has played or tested all the new detachments. I wouldn't be passing judgement about power levels just yet.

 

You mentioned that the Dark Angels have lost some options, the same applies to the Ultramarines that you compare them to - they've lost half of all chapter specific options they used to have.

 

Out of curiosity, what makes Guilliman the better Primarch in your opinion? He's slow and his army boosts aren't particularly notable in my opinion. His best ability is allowing free stratagems to be used, but I think that Azrael simply generating an additional command point for such a cheap character is a better ability (not to mention boosting the durability of his unit).

As I said, both Primarchs generally suffer from the same flaws. In my eyes The Lion is superior because he's more durable and gets to fight first even if he's charged by a powerful unit - not to mention you can drop him anywhere on the board. I'd much rather face Guilliman on the tabletop than the Lion, personally.

Funny enough both Primarchs are weaker than they were in the Index phase.

 

I think the Deathwing Knights are still a scary unit in terms of their rules. It's the points that will make or break them. We'll know on a few days!

Edited January 21 by Orange Knight

[Tacitus]

24 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

ICCs are a lot tougher than Tactical Marines. They have 3W and the -1 to-Hit makes them significantly more durable, even before you add Characters. I freely admit Azzy works better with these guys than almost anyone else.

What else works with them? 

 

I included their stat line "(T4, W2/3, no Invuln)"  - Tiggy does that -1 To Hit and a situational 4+++ and some freebie strats for 6BGV for cheaper than Azzy gives 4+++, half of Lethal/Sustained, to ICC.   I like the BGV swords better than the Calibanite Greatwords.  The swap was really really not worth the 4++ Storm Shields. 

 

And we come back again to what else works (at all, let alone as well as Azrael) with them?  Az and who?  Adding a generic Libby to give them a 4++ precludes adding anything else to make them better.  I can and do have a list with Calgar and a LT leading one unit of 6BGV, and 1 unit of Tiggy leading BGV - which is only because Tiggy Stacks a bunch of stuff including his hood + Hazardous Storm, -1 to get it, Freebie Strats. 

 

With that said I don't think many of these drawbacks will last for the entire 10th Ed.  I suspect some of the attached leader restrictions will go away, and even more so I expect the "Double Stacking" language will expand more so such that Cap/Chap/Libby can be joined by secondary Leaders like Lieutenants/Apothecaries/Champions.  In a perfect world Lieutenants and Techmarines will be moved to a third group that can join a Cap/Chap/Libby OR a Lieutenant/Apothecary/Champion to cover their hybrid nature as potential 1st or 2nd Tier Leaders.   ICC get a whole lot more interesting when you can attach a Libby and a Something. 

[Tacitus]

50 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Maybe! And if the Ultramarines are better, is that a problem? Both chapters are better than the Imperial Fists lol.

Yes, that's a problem.  I've long crusaded for the non-Big Four to get fleshed out as much as the Big Four.

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We don't know the final points, no one has played or tested all the new detachments. I wouldn't be passing judgement about power levels just yet.

 

You mentioned that the Dark Angels have lost some options, the same applies to the Ultramarines that you compare them to - they've lost half of all chapter specific options they used to have.

I know, I used to love making all Mechanized/Tank armies with Chronus.  40K has been going in what I'd call the wrong direction for a while now, losing that sort of variety - though in one case I was hoping/expecting it - I wanted them to move Cassius back to Death Watch full time, having crossed the Rubicon. 

 

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Out of curiosity, what makes Guilliman the better Primarch in your opinion? He's slow and his army boosts aren't particularly notable in my opinion. His best ability is allowing free stratagems to be used, but I think that Azrael simply generating an additional command point for such a cheap character is a better ability (not to mention boosting the durability of his unit).

As I said, both Primarchs generally suffer from the same flaws. In my eyes The Lion is superior because he's more durable and gets to fight first even if he's charged by a powerful unit - not to mention you can drop him anywhere on the board. I'd much rather face Guilliman on the tabletop than the Lion, personally.

Funny enough both Primarchs are weaker than they were in the Index phase.

 

I think the Deathwing Knights are still a scary unit in terms of their rules. It's the points that will make or break them. We'll know on a few days!

Guilliman gets to Sweep at D2.  8" isn't slow. and Guilliman gets to do Freebie Strats once per turn, not once per battle round in theory giving you a defacto 2+ CP per round, that still alllows Calgar to officially give you 1CP per battle round. 

 

As for Fighting First - my opponent is going to have to work really hard to charge either primarch - I'm really really fond of the Phobos Libby + Infiltrators, Lone Operative wombo combo.   No Deepstrike within 12, no shooting outside 12,  I have so much control over who gets to get how close to my units in that little brick, its going to take something equally potent to work around it.   I don't see any changes on Guilliman between the Index and the Codex?

 

Deathwing Knights aren't scary, they're just not as bad as I think people are making them out to be - I suspect because people are focusing on the swords when their best loadout is probably still the maces, with the Duty Eternal/ They're still M5"and OC1.   3 Termagants out OC them.  They're a wonderful Anvil, but they pretty much need the Ravenwing CS+BK Hammer to make them viable - otherwise flood them with guardsman, Gants, Gaunts, and Grots (21 A, hit on a 2+, you can only hit 20ish times, add in a few 1 fumbles on the To Wound...) - The Ravenwing Bikes are OC2 OC3 with Ancient and have the offense to clear the swarm - Plus once you get a Vehicle or Monster with a Toughness over 6 or so you've got Anti-Monster 4+ and Anti-Vehicle 4+ from the bikes wounding T12 on a 4+ while the Deathwing Knights are wounding on a 6+ - their sweet spot is basically Gravis Equivalent and then fades fast the more you deviate from there.  Their mirror match is a bunch of Hit on 2's, wound on 3s, vs a 3+ save to do a single damage.   They have a niche, but its a small one. 

Edited January 21 by Tacitus

[Orange Knight]

Guilliman was nerfed indirectly because of changes to the rest of the rules.

Double Oath of Moment isn't as big a deal without re-rolls to wound, and the free stratagem ability isn't open to every stratagem either. If I was running these characters I wouldn't be as focused on the sweep profile - I'd be hunting down other elite units. Both are too expensive imo - they still need support and clever positioning, and they don't stack up to other characters that can combine with units for greater effect. The Helbrecht combo is a good illustration of that.

But sure, I can concede that Guilliman is more punchy whilst the Lion is more tanky. 

I actually bought the Lion not long ago, but I haven't yet painted or assembled him. It wouldn't be difficult for me to run my army using Dark Angel rules as my only unique units are Tor Garadon and Lysander.

If it was up to me, both Primarchs would simply cost 280-300 points.

 

As for Chapter performance, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the Black Templars currently the best performing chapter? I was away from the hobby for a few weeks. The Black Templars can be categorised as Marines + 1 to the same extent, or even more so, than the Dark Angels.

[Marshal Reinhard]

4 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Again, not really - if DA can use everything in the main codex (which they can't, they don't get Calgar, Tiggy, etc) its not a sidegrade if they're Blue Marines in Green because they're not using any of their bespoke stuff, they're not a side grade, they're a clone. 

That wasn't in the original question now was it? On the matter on whether they're +1, no change or -1, being a side grade or clone has no functional difference.

[Dracos]

6 hours ago, Tacitus said:

 ….   Because DA have extra stuff - as if the other chapters don't have chapter specific stuff, DA must be Marines +1 -

The White Scars and Imperial Fist would like to have a discussion with your Ravenwing and Death Knights

 

The Salamanders and Raven Guard would just like to be part of the discussion.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I wouldn't be too worried about power, as they'll address some of it via points, either very soon or within a couple months. They added new stuff to Death Guard, which has turned them around a good bit, so that part in particular doesn't bother me so much.

 

Random nerfs are a disappointment, but this isn't the first time that's happened. I remember towards the end of 9E, they talked about factions they wanted at close to 50% and the target range of what was good, and then immediately put the hammer down on... CSM with like a 52% rate, instead of the ones doing better. So we've seen them miss the mark there before.

 

I think really the more disappointing thing is simply the removal of options, especially the Deathwing Command Squad. It may come back later, but it's not good to see it go. For existing collectors, it's really going to be that which takes what should have been a fun release and really put a damper on it. The lack of options on the Deathwing Terminators comes across as just pushing that you buy the new models vs the old ones, which isn't a practice we should encourage. They've done this for other units though, so unfortunately, it's not a one-off.

Edited January 21 by WrathOfTheLion

[Subtleknife]

This is worst way they could of done it. I don't get why these detachments couldnt haven't been added into the vanilla dex if I'm honest. 

 

Why would anyone not want more options for their units, it just seems bonkers. For too long GW have been favouring some first founding over others which I can only imagine leaves a sour taste in the mouths of the non special snowflake chapters. 

 

Personally they should have rolled SM into one big dex. From the primaris release around 8th they should have released a chapter master and special character for each first founding. Then moved onto special units imo like Deathwing etc.

 

 

Also doesn't this violate GWs one book rule? Seems to me you need two books now to play DA.

 

Saying that though I think the new models are lovely and GW has done an excellent job. I just hope other chapters get some love too. It's crazy Scars don't have a bike mounted character

Edited January 21 by Subtleknife

[Cenobite Terminator]

If this is the general trend of no codex creep that’s a good thing. Unfortunately for DA they had a lot of units end up on the chopping block due to the transition in general Space Marines are going through now. I would have liked to see some new units for Ravenwing and unfortunately this seems quite telling.

[Tokugawa]

4 hours ago, Subtleknife said:

This is worst way they could of done it. I don't get why these detachments couldnt haven't been added into the vanilla dex if I'm honest. 

 

Why would anyone not want more options for their units, it just seems bonkers. For too long GW have been favouring some first founding over others which I can only imagine leaves a sour taste in the mouths of the non special snowflake chapters. 

 

Personally they should have rolled SM into one big dex. From the primaris release around 8th they should have released a chapter master and special character for each first founding. Then moved onto special units imo like Deathwing etc.

 

 

Also doesn't this violate GWs one book rule? Seems to me you need two books now to play DA.

 

Saying that though I think the new models are lovely and GW has done an excellent job. I just hope other chapters get some love too. It's crazy Scars don't have a bike mounted character

Sales, brother, because of sales! Chapter like DA, BA and SW, although "just a part of a faction", each one has much more players number than many "full faction". 

 

Marine exception-ism existed, exists and will exist. This forum called "bolter and chainsword" right? 

 

[Tacitus]

14 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Guilliman was nerfed indirectly because of changes to the rest of the rules.

I don't think that's how nerfing an individual model works

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Double Oath of Moment isn't as big a deal without re-rolls to wound, and the free stratagem ability isn't open to every stratagem either. If I was running these characters I wouldn't be as focused on the sweep profile - I'd be hunting down other elite units. Both are too expensive imo - they still need support and clever positioning, and they don't stack up to other characters that can combine with units for greater effect. The Helbrecht combo is a good illustration of that. But sure, I can concede that Guilliman is more punchy whilst the Lion is more tanky. 

I wasn't as impressed with Double Oath as some others.  I was always more focused on the double Freebies.

I'm focused on the Sweep profile because not everyone has the big elite Strike/Fist Smash units.   And not all of those units are better suited by STRIKE'ing them - From another thread on here, someone was asking how to take C'Tan.  I'd sweep a C'Tan over Strike.  I'd sweep a big brick of Gaunts that are in my way. 

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I actually bought the Lion not long ago, but I haven't yet painted or assembled him. It wouldn't be difficult for me to run my army using Dark Angel rules as my only unique units are Tor Garadon and Lysander.

If it was up to me, both Primarchs would simply cost 280-300 points.

 

As for Chapter performance, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the Black Templars currently the best performing chapter? I was away from the hobby for a few weeks. The Black Templars can be categorised as Marines + 1 to the same extent, or even more so, than the Dark Angels.

What do the BT's have to do with your question about whether the UM are in better shape than the DA?