New Dark Angel Supplement - Appropriate Power or Not?

[Orange Knight]

45 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

I don't think that's how nerfing an individual model works

 

That's exactly how it works. Units can be nerfed or buffed directly or indirectly. If a unit has a particularly strong interaction with certain rules, and then those rules are altered or reduced in efficacy, thar unit is also reduced in power by extension.

 

53 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

What do the BT's have to do with your question about whether the UM are in better shape than the DA? 

 

What do the Ultramarines have to do with the Dark Angels? You decided to focus on them. I'm bringing up another, more appropriate example. Both the Black Templars and the Dark Angels have extensive ranges of unique characters and units.

 

Define better shape. One chapter has a few unique units, another has over a dozen. If your only argument is around the power level of certain unit combinations, you should know that power in 40k is always in a flux and that we haven't even seen the final point costs of the units in the DA supplement. 

[Subtleknife]

7 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Sales, brother, because of sales! Chapter like DA, BA and SW, although "just a part of a faction", each one has much more players number than many "full faction". 

 

Marine exception-ism existed, exists and will exist. This forum called "bolter and chainsword" right? 

 

Has it not occurred to you that perhaps one of the reasons why certain marine factions sell better than others could be because they receive more support?

 

 

Edited January 22 by Subtleknife

[Blindhamster]

That was possibly true in the past when the game was young, but it’s been so long now that even if all the other chapters suddenly got a unique unit, character and supplement, they’d still be unlikely to outsell. Exception would be if one of them was clearly far and out more powerful, in which case the WAAC players would switch of course.

 

GW tried giving chapters characters, upgrade sprues and supplements of their own. The fact they did it in a single edition only, suggests it wasn’t financially worth it to them. 
 

Anecdotally, I play blood angels, and when primaris became a thing I switched to primaris and don’t use any unique units that aren’t also primaris. I did so happily for years because I just think blood angels are cooler. I initially had LESS support than other chapters (in fact, blood angels may have been the last to get a primaris character? Or was it templars with their whole range refresh?). People will play what they like. 

[Blindhamster]

As far as dark angels are concerned, I’d say they’re where they should be, a side grade to marines rather than marines +1. 
 

I’ve said it before but I don’t believe more options are equates to “better”, it’s only better if the options themselves are typically better than what anyone else has. Deathwing terminator squads feel like a solid side grade from regular terminators, knights and companions seem to be generally lamented as inferior to core options, their characters are relatively average in relation to other chapters characters. I agree that ultramarines arguably have the best character support still. The new unique detachments are so-so, core ones are mostly better id say. 
 

 

[Marshal Reinhard]

20 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

(in fact, blood angels may have been the last to get a primaris character? Or was it templars with their whole range refresh?)

Yeah no. Templar's were the last. When every single first founding codex chapter got a supplement, a sprue and a character, templars were skipped over. BA had gotten Mephiston at that point and had had their unique lieutenant too. BT had gotten nothing until we suddenly got everything in one go.

 

It was a very rough time, until it wasn't.

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

As far as dark angels are concerned, I’d say they’re where they should be, a side grade to marines rather than marines +1. 
 

 

 

 

They are a side grade in terms of performance at this exact moment. They are clearly Marines +1 in terms of range and options.

 

Having access to more units and options will, over time, lead to more opportunities of having an advantage in terms of rules as well.

 

If just one of their units is adjusted and becomes a very powerful option, then they are Marines + 1 in models and rules.

[Blindhamster]

We can agree to disagree, if the unit is not better than all core marine options, to me that isn’t marines +1 in terms of power. 

1 hour ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Yeah no. Templar's were the last. When every single first founding codex chapter got a supplement, a sprue and a character, templars were skipped over. BA had gotten Mephiston at that point and had had their unique lieutenant too. BT had gotten nothing until we suddenly got everything in one go.

 

It was a very rough time, until it wasn't.

not being funny, the lieutenant doesn’t count, as unlike the wolves and dark angels, he was purely a model, not a single unique rule

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

GW tried giving chapters characters, upgrade sprues and supplements of their own. The fact they did it in a single edition only, suggests it wasn’t financially worth it to them. 
 

 

 

I don't think a supplement and an upgrade sprue that didn't perform well is a fair representation of how popular a faction can ultimately be. 

 

Models drive this hobby. If GW released Rogal Dorn, some new Imperial Fist units and unique vehicles, you can be absolutely sure they will sell a lot.

 

It's not just about what is already established in terms of model support, otherwise they could never introduce entirely new models or factions.

3 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

We can agree to disagree, if the unit is not better than all core marine options, to me that isn’t marines +1 in terms of power. 

 

 

But do we know that the Dark Angels aren't better? No one has played with the new rules yet, and no one has seen the final points that will be dropped at release.

 

We can probably say that the Black Templars will remain number one, but that's another chapter that has a vast advantage of unique models and rules.

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

That's exactly how it works. Units can be nerfed or buffed directly or indirectly. If a unit has a particularly strong interaction with certain rules, and then those rules are altered or reduced in efficacy, thar unit is also reduced in power by extension.

That's not how a specific model is nerfed.  If we drop to one Close Combat Phase per battleround, that's not a nerf to Assault Intercessors Sergeants,  its a nerf to Close Combat.

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What do the Ultramarines have to do with the Dark Angels? You decided to focus on them. I'm bringing up another, more appropriate example. Both the Black Templars and the Dark Angels have extensive ranges of unique characters and units.

You're bringing up another different chapter because you asked the question and lost out on the answer.  You asked if UM were better than DA.  I answered, you moved the goalposts.

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Are you suggesting that the Dark Angels, a faction with a very big range of chapter specific options, is in a worse position than other chapters such as the Ultramarines, White Scars or Imperial Fists?

 

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Define better shape. One chapter has a few unique units, another has over a dozen. If your only argument is around the power level of certain unit combinations, you should know that power in 40k is always in a flux and that we haven't even seen the final point costs of the units in the DA supplement. 

Wins more with the stuff that is theirs alone.  Having a bunch of units nobody will take is a lot like not having those units at all.  Somebody is already wondering if they should just use their ICC models as puffed up Sergeants. The rule of cool is not actually a rule as it pertains to which Chapter is doing better than another. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

29 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

not being funny, the lieutenant doesn’t count, as unlike the wolves and dark angels, he was purely a model, not a single unique rule

Yeah but we hadn't even gotten that. Not even a sprue. 

 

Anyway, definitionally, DA can if they have access to everything SM has as well as their own stuff only either be a sidegrade or +1. If all of their stuff is strictly worse than core SM stuff that basically means they're a side grade.

If their stuff is strictly worse than SM stuff and they don't actually have access to everything SM does, then they are -1. 

 

Future potential rules buffs or nerfs don't have any bearing on their being +1 +/-0 or -1 now.

 

nor should UM characters factor in, as not all SM are UM. UM characters are very relevant when comparing DA and UM, but Sallies, Fists etc will find the argument that DA have it worse than them because roboute is suppossedly better to be a very poor one. 

Edited January 22 by Marshal Reinhard

[Orange Knight]

@Tacitus

 

I think you're arguing semantics, and you're only looking at this from the point of view of raw power, which as I point out is always in constant flux. 

 

And yes, an individual unit can absolutely be nerfed when universal special rules are altered, if it interacted with them in a unique way.

Guilliman allowed for a 2nd use of Oath of Moment - the only model that did this. When Oath of Moment is nerfed, his individual rule is less valuable - hence the model has been nerfed because his special rule is of less value.

 

I'll happily take a bunch of extra unit options for my Imperial Fists, even if they are just narrative choices lol. If your only concern is being a power gamer and taking the meta choices, then your view of the game as a whole will be very narrow. 

Edited January 22 by Orange Knight

[Marshal Reinhard]

6 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

@Tacitus

 

I think you're arguing semantics

I know I am largely arguing semantics

[Blindhamster]

I think the issue is, traditionally the whole term of “marines+1” came from the era in 3rd where DA, BA and SW got all the marines benefits and then also got extra on top. This was the sentiment then because from a raw power perspective they were just better. From a unit options perspective those chapters have almost always had restrictions and in many editions straight up lost access to core marine stuff too.

 

i don’t think anyone can argue that all chapters are better than playing a custom one in terms of options. Then the degree of better varies with things like white scars, ravenguard and crimson fists at the bottom, imperial fists and salamanders being better than them, then it’s a toss up between the big 4 and templars for most options. 
 

from a pure power perspective, wolves and blood angels sit lower on that chart than ultramarines, templars and dark angels (and if you look at tournament results. Also core marines, laughably)

 

anyway, point I’m getting at is, it very much depends what we are talking about when we say marines +1. The thread was about power, not about options, and from a power perspective, dark angels look like a side grade compared to ultramarines, but an upgrade compared to other pure codex chapters. 

Edited January 22 by Blindhamster

[Orange Knight]

There was a point when the divergent Chapters didn't have access to all the codex units. I seem to recall periods when Blood Angels couldn't access Grav Centurions, or Dark Angels couldn't take Iron Clad Dreadnoughts?

 

Today these divergent chapters have access to every single option in the core codex, as well as they additional units thar may or may not be very powerful at a given time.

 

As things currently are, they are indeed Marines + 1.

 

I recognise that Wolves and Blood Angels aren't performing well at the moment, but they haven't yet been updated in 10th edition (I keep pointing out how silly the piecemeal roll-out is now that all Marines share the same core codex).

 

Saying all that, nothing is stopping Blood Angels or Space Wolves from simply using the powerful codex options and detachments.  How would a Space Wolf army that uses no SW units, running a Gladius, be reported in the tournament data? I ask this because it's entirely possible that the low standing is caused by running sub optimal, thematic lists. 

 

This is actually an interesting question because the same units can perform differently depending on what detachment is run. I'm happy to agree that the SW detachment isn't very good. What qualifies a SW or BA army in the tournament data? Is it the use of the themed detachment or the units, or how it's painted?

Edited January 22 by Orange Knight

[Blindhamster]

I would guess that they base it on if you use unique options from the supplement, but yes it would be interesting to know

[Orange Knight]

It's worth considering because a thematic option might be worse than a generic one. We can see that with Belial - in a purely competitive sense you might prefer a generic Terminator Captain.

 

The Dark Angels can still take that generic Captain.

[Blindhamster]

9 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

It's worth considering because a thematic option might be worse than a generic one. We can see that with Belial - in a purely competitive sense you might prefer a generic Terminator Captain.

 

The Dark Angels can still take that generic Captain.

again though, I’d assume it’s a case that it counts as the supplement if anything from the supplement is used, be that a character, unit or detachment. No other “fair” way to do it

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Today these divergent chapters have access to every single option in the core codex, as well as they additional units thar may or may not be very powerful at a given time.

 

Not entirely true. Space Wolves cannot access certain units. This s particularly Firstborn stuff but also some newer things like Primaris Apothecaries. Black Templars cannot Librarians of either flavour.

12 hours ago, Cenobite Terminator said:

I would have liked to see some new units for Ravenwing and unfortunately this seems quite telling.

 

Considering that the Deathwing revamp saw the Command Squad squatted and the Knights nerfed, maybe the Ravenwing got lucky and dodged the bullet.

[Blindhamster]

23 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Doesn't change the fact that Dark Angels are Marines + 1.

By this logic, ravenguard are marines +1

 

They have a character that my homebrew chapter doesn’t have.

 

Having more options doesn’t meant it’s better, otherwise the best army in the game would be marines. Not eldar. Having more options just means more options, more diverse lists but not necessarily better as an army overall.

 

it would be nice to have more options for all chapter, it would be nice if each guard regiment had a unique unit to represent them and unique characters. 
 

again, the topic was power, and from a pure power perspective, dark angels are among the top, but so are ultramarines and black templars.

 

strictly speaking, space wolves, blood angels and deathwatch hang at the bottom end of the power curve based on tournaments. We don’t know precisely how that’s determined, but I’d be surprised if it’s anything other than “did the army use an option from the supplement”

[Subtleknife]

5 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

That was possibly true in the past when the game was young, but it’s been so long now that even if all the other chapters suddenly got a unique unit, character and supplement, they’d still be unlikely to outsell. Exception would be if one of them was clearly far and out more powerful, in which case the WAAC players would switch of course.

 

If that was the case then why not bin off all chapters bar DA, BA, UM, BT and SWs as they sell the best /most. 

 

This is about creating some parity and fairness. GW have clearly felt this was necessary and profitable previously as they have sold characters for those less liked chapters.

5 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

GW tried giving chapters characters, upgrade sprues and supplements of their own. The fact they did it in a single edition only, suggests it wasn’t financially worth it to them. 

 

Last time a spoke to someone on the GW team about these supplements (after they had been released) they indicated that they had sold well. If anyone has any concrete info I would love to see it.

 

My point is you can't chalk this upto being "they didn't sell well".  It could be due to production capacity or a whole host of reason. We simply don't know and speculation is unreliable at best. 

 

What confuses me most is that this suplement approach completely breaks GWs one book stance and also give those with supplements more rules they can pick from which is an odd decision I think.

5 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Anecdotally, I play blood angels, and when primaris became a thing I switched to primaris and don’t use any unique units that aren’t also primaris. I did so happily for years because I just think blood angels are cooler. I initially had LESS support than other chapters (in fact, blood angels may have been the last to get a primaris character? Or was it templars with their whole range refresh?). People will play what they like. 

Blood angels still had more support than a lot of first founding. They have unique units and characters that other first founding don't. 

 

I'm not saying some people, like you, chose based on coolness. I am saying a potential reason for the lower levels of interest in other first founding chapters is because they arent supported.

 

If you look at all the most popular chapter DA, BT, SW, BA and UM, they are all the best supported be it in terms of models, advertising or lore books etc.

Edited January 22 by Subtleknife

[Blindhamster]

Oh yeah, absolutely they had more options via firstborn, but I went with them because I liked red when I was 8 and became “loyal” to them over the many many years since then haha. 
 

who knows, maybe we will see more of a streamlining in 11th, they’re killing enough things that we could end up with them opting to have core marines being where most of the “things” are and then maybe each chapter will get a couple units, tbh I don’t even think they need to do model support necessarily, if they went the hounds or normal/death company intercessor route, it’d keep people happier 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Are those limits imposed on detachments? They still have the option to circumvent those. 

 

Yes, it is a detachment restriction. So I could run <Space Wolves> units in a Gladius detachment which would give me access to the Apothecary etc.

 

It is not like anyone is running Champions of Russ for its effectiveness. 

[Tacitus]

11 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

 

who knows, maybe we will see more of a streamlining in 11th, they’re killing enough things that we could end up with them opting to have core marines being where most of the “things” are and then maybe each chapter will get a couple units, 

That is absolutely where they're going (for Marines).   Fewer and fewer datasheets, that then get flipped by Detachment and (right now Special, but eventually just basic) Character rules.  Some people chalked the great purge up to 30K/40K Crossover prevention - and that may be some of it, but its not the main cause.  Custodes kept their Contemptors.  It was really about carving out that datasheet to them uniquely.  This edition we saw the line between Primaris and Firstborrn almost evaporate - except for Rhino and Impulsor Chassis.  Assault Squads were Squatted, and - stupidly - reintroduced wtihout the 1 per 5 Anti Vehicle/Monster option as Jump Assault Intercessors.  Sternguard crossed the Rubicon with Tacticus and extra attacks.   Vanguard are just a mess, but they've got extra attacks, don't need an armor keyword - so have probably also crossed the Rubicon pending a new model kit - or getting sqautted by a new model kit.   Terminators have essentially crossed in a way that was probably designed to blur the river itself. 

 

11th is more likely to cross/Squat-And-Replace the Tacs and Devs so they can Squad the Rhino Chassis (Rhino, Razorback, Predators - the Hunter/Stalker is already gone) so they can send it almost exclusively to the Sisters.  They're kind of stuck with the Land Raider because of the video games, but they're definitely pushing Repuslor over Land Raider for the future.   Its just an uphill battle due to Transport Capacity and 2+ vs 3+.  I'd expect to see Repulsors get more spacious, and a 2+ or an X++ in the relatively near future such that Space Marines can still technically take Land Raiders but don't because Repulsors are better - at least until the memory of Dawn of War Land Raiders laying wreckage to the entire base fades from memory. 

[Subtleknife]

34 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Oh yeah, absolutely they had more options via firstborn, but I went with them because I liked red when I was 8 and became “loyal” to them over the many many years since then haha. 

 

Hahaha I did the same but for blue. Best way to pick them imo. It is the best way to pick them imo, because rules etc don't end up mattering.

36 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

who knows, maybe we will see more of a streamlining in 11th, they’re killing enough things that we could end up with them opting to have core marines being where most of the “things” are and then maybe each chapter will get a couple units, tbh I don’t even think they need to do model support necessarily, if they went the hounds or normal/death company intercessor route, it’d keep people happier 

Yeah the hounds route would be acceptable imo too. 

[Orange Knight]

Yeah they are definitely streamlining things a lot. I imagine a few Dark Angel options will be lost in the next bout of updates.

I imagine that in 11th edition tthey'll release Primaris Ezikiel and Sammael, and a Ravenwing Outrider.

 

I'm very curious about how the Blood Angels and Space Wolves shape up. I think both of these chapters could be really well served with extensive upgrade sprues.