New Dark Angel Supplement - Appropriate Power or Not?

[Tacitus]

20 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Yes, it is a detachment restriction. So I could run <Space Wolves> units in a Gladius detachment which would give me access to the Apothecary etc.

 

It is not like anyone is running Champions of Russ for its effectiveness. 

Champions of Russ is a - for lack of a better word - smaller more subtle variation on the frontload vs backfill exemplified by Fate vs Miracle Dice.  Wolves have to "wait" for the Sagas, but the benefit of what you waited for is not proportional to the benefits gained by the factions who can front-load their stuff onto a full army.   i.e. its Bottom of Turn 5, your Warlord has finally dropped to half wounds in this last round of melee, Congrats everyone gets a 6+++ for the rest of the battle.  Also known as the cleanup phase.   All four of the Enhancements are top quality so its actually a choice of which one you don't choose,  The Strats are all at least decent.   Its the Sagas vs the Doctrines, and the Doctrines front-load. 

[Tacitus]

8 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Yeah they are definitely streamlining things a lot. I imagine a few Dark Angel options will be lost in the next bout of updates.

I imagine that in 11th edition tthey'll release Primaris Ezikiel and Sammael, and a Ravenwing Outrider.

 

I'm very curious about how the Blood Angels and Space Wolves shape up. I think both of these chapters could be really well served with extensive upgrade sprues.

Outriders are already Ravenwing in DA armies, but they're second tier Ravenwing like the Core Book Speeders.  They don't get the 5++ the Black Knights and Firstborn speeders get.   Tack on to that the Ravenwing "banner" bike pole and there's no reason to make a Ravenwing Outrider kid other than bundled sales.   Adding in BGV, Sternguard and Vanguard to Deathwing makes it more likely DA loses Deathwing and Ravenwing trough streamline than them getting new models/units - though neither is very likely.

 

I think Blood Angels will see a new release of Sanguinary Guard - or an offstage Rubicon crossing - I hope they finally drop Tycho - he's one of the few units/models I want squatted.

I don't expect but wouldn't be surprised to see their special Dreads turn into Redemptor Chassis versions.   

I more than half expect an Assault intercessor with Jump Packs Death Company version box/entry - probably giving their Astartes Chain Swords the Ant-Assorted (4+) combiweapon treatment.

I wouldn't be shocked by this being when the new upsized Vanguard Vets Release - probably with the Jump Assaults, Sanguinary Guard and Dante in a Deathwing from Above Assault Box.

There's an outside chance of Supercharged Storm Speeder Engines, but I doubt it.

 

I think the wolves lose the ability to put Terminator Super Sergeant Battle Leaders in Power Armor Squads.  Potentially the whole Super Sergeant Battle Leader concept gets squatted. 

I think vast numbers of Epic Hero Space Wolves die a horrible death - either off screen or in the Summer campaign - to fluff them getting Squatted.   There's just way way way too many of them given the current path GW is taking. 

I think Bjorn gets a new Redemptor Shell now that we have a Brutalis Talon to paint Ice Blue. 

I think a lot of X-Claws cross the Rubicon by being SW names for Core Book Units.  Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs just turn into Skyclaws when they're in a SW army.

I think the only thing saving the Hounds of Morkai are GW trying to make Reivers happen and any remnant requirements for Kill Team. 

I think Wolf Scouts are also on borrowed time.  I think people are about to be painting grey hair on the new scout squad. 

I think its about to get very hard to tell Blood Claws and Assault Intercessors apart. 

 

Looking at that list, I think it's going to suck to be a Space Wolves collector pretty soon.  On the bright side, I also think Russ is coming back during the Summer Campaign either this next one or more likely the one after. 

[Cenobite Terminator]

I know 9th edition wasnt popular but it did provide a high degree of customization.

Edited January 23 by Cenobite Terminator

[AutumnEffect]

From a White Scars perspective, looking at all the Ravenwing stuff, I can't help but feel they are Marines+1.

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, AutumnEffect said:

From a White Scars perspective, looking at all the Ravenwing stuff, I can't help but feel they are Marines+1.

Yeah Ravenwing are definitely the "winners" in this release.  I would expect a White Scars Supplement in the second half of the edition, but I wouldn't say Ravenwing alone are enough to make DA as whole Marines +1. 

[AutumnEffect]

3 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

but I wouldn't say Ravenwing alone are enough to make DA as whole Marines +1. 

 

I don't really follow. It's more than the normal Space Marines have so it can only be Marines+1.

[Tacitus]

17 minutes ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

I don't really follow. It's more than the normal Space Marines have so it can only be Marines+1.

Because its just that one slice, the Green Wing and Deathwing aspects of the codex are pretty lackluster.   Does Kor'Sarro Khan make White Scars Marines +1?  He's certainly better than Lazarus and Belial.  A wombo Combo for Azrael - especially when Azrael Wombo Combo's with almost everyone else, or a Ravenwing Gimmick isn't really a Chapter Wide Marines +1

[AutumnEffect]

12 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Because its just that one slice, the Green Wing and Deathwing aspects of the codex are pretty lackluster.   Does Kor'Sarro Khan make White Scars Marines +1?  He's certainly better than Lazarus and Belial.  A wombo Combo for Azrael - especially when Azrael Wombo Combo's with almost everyone else, or a Ravenwing Gimmick isn't really a Chapter Wide Marines +1

 

I think we might just have to agree to different opinions. I would say that Kor'Sarro Khan would make White Scars Marines+1 vs a chapter that didn't have access to any other special characters.

[Tacitus]

46 minutes ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

I think we might just have to agree to different opinions. I would say that Kor'Sarro Khan would make White Scars Marines+1 vs a chapter that didn't have access to any other special characters.

I'm pretty sure they all do. 

[AutumnEffect]

3 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

I'm pretty sure they all do. 

 

So if we agree in the principle that having access to more stuff is the same as saying it is Marines+1 then I don't understand where the disagreement in saying Dark Angels are Marines+1 lies.

The only thing thing they don't have access to is some named characters, but make up for it with their own roster as well as three unique detachments and unique units of Ravenwing & Deathwing. 

[Tacitus]

That's not what we agree on, we agree on the idea that having access to more stuff that is effective and potent - is Marines +1.   Stuff nobody wants isn't +1 anything.   Would having access to 5 man 400 point lasgun guard squads make the OofDa Marines +1?  Of course not, options that are meaningless can't mean +1.   The ICC are a one trick pony that gets Azrael into a similar BGV based units for others - which makes them pretty much meaningless for anyone else.  Greenwing will be almost entirely Core Book units because the rest of the special characters aren't built like Azrael and the other units weren't built to get DA into the same sorts of combos such that the DA specific stuff doesn't build the same things.   That's the optimal.  Getting to the same place with a different road. 

[AutumnEffect]

24 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

That's not what we agree on, we agree on the idea that having access to more stuff that is effective and potent - is Marines +1.   Stuff nobody wants isn't +1 anything.   Would having access to 5 man 400 point lasgun guard squads make the OofDa Marines +1?  Of course not, options that are meaningless can't mean +1.   The ICC are a one trick pony that gets Azrael into a similar BGV based units for others - which makes them pretty much meaningless for anyone else.  Greenwing will be almost entirely Core Book units because the rest of the special characters aren't built like Azrael and the other units weren't built to get DA into the same sorts of combos such that the DA specific stuff doesn't build the same things.   That's the optimal.  Getting to the same place with a different road. 

 

An option that doesn't detract isn't inherently meaningless. There will always be edge-cases, meta changes (local or global) and point value changes. 

It wouldn't matter if all three of the detachments were lackluster, it's still more than Marines as a base codex has.

Dark Angels have access to more detachments, more units and more special characters than vanilla marines.
 

The only arguable position that they are not Marines+1 is if there was a negative cost associated with choosing them over Vanilla Marines. The only arguable cost would be losing access to certain special characters.
I believe that Ultramarines have five special characters and Dark Angels have seven.

We can't argue about what everyone wants or not and weather it's +1 or not because that's an entirely subjective and variable point that will change with personal opinion, meta adjustments or all sorts of variables immediately and through time. We can only look at numbers of options and make a cost-benefit analysis from that.

Edited January 23 by AutumnEffect

[Tacitus]

8 minutes ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

The only arguable position that they are not Marines+1 is if there was a negative cost associated with choosing them over Vanilla Marines. 

No, the only arguable position that they ARE Marines + 1 is if there was an across-the-board positive benefit that Marines itself doesn't have.  Azrael + ICC isn't significantly different from other chapters doing a BGV+ unit.  Terminators are bad.  Better Terminators are still bad.  Battleshock is bad.  The only thing DA specific that is "better" are the Ravenwing Special units. 

[Karhedron]

I think the term Marines+1 means different things to different people. For some, extra options are always +1 simply because they exist, it does not matter if they are weak. For others, the term only applies if the faction overall is stronger than the base faction. Since we know for a fact that DAs get some Chapter-specific units, that is not a useful discussion.

 

I think we should focus the question on whether Dark Angels as an overall faction are stronger than standard codex Space Marines. At the moment, it looks to me like the DA supplement is around the same power level as Codex Marines. It is possible to build lists that represent different wings of the Dark Angels Chapter but it does not look to me as though these will be stronger than a standard Codex list.

 

In fact I would argue that based on the current points values, a DA list would get weaker the more DA-specific units it added (although I expect this to be addressed with a points update when the codex arrives).

Edited January 23 by Karhedron

[AutumnEffect]

10 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

No, the only arguable position that they ARE Marines + 1 is if there was an across-the-board positive benefit that Marines itself doesn't have.  Azrael + ICC isn't significantly different from other chapters doing a BGV+ unit.  Terminators are bad.  Better Terminators are still bad.  Battleshock is bad.  The only thing DA specific that is "better" are the Ravenwing Special units. 

 

You are ignoring my argument rather than refuting it, but fine I'll bite on this.
You need to define what 'across-the-board' means for your argument. Do you mean if every option that Dark Angels had was 'good'? Do you mean if a majority of them were 'good'? 

If we agree on the assumption that the Ravenwing Special units are a DA specific thing that is "better" then that makes them Marines+1 because it's something they have that Vanilla Marines don't and they haven't lost anything to gain it.

[Orange Knight]

In 3 days, Deathwing Knights might be the hottest unit again! 

 

No matter what they'll be less offensively potent, but will still be extremely durable. If they price them aggressively, they will be popular.

[Marshal Reinhard]

While I could perhaps entertain the notion that there's a discussion to be had over the relative difference between the hero lineups between DA and UM complete with their respective primarchs, the idea that DA could have "lost something" in the equation when thinking about Tor Garadon, or Shrike, comes off as more than tad insincere. Yes it's technically true, but the comparison just hurts your argument rather than the opposite.

 

Also. Helbrecht's not even relevant here. He's BT, and BT are currently already considered Marines +1.

[Orange Knight]

I think we are confounding two different things here.

 

The initial topic asks if Dark Angels are appropriately powerful, and if they are Marines + 1. These two things are not mutually exclusive, and are not the same thing.

 

I am happy to agree that the point costs of some units are sub optimal. I think GW need to adjust the cost of the Deathwing Knights and the Companions, as well as Terminators across all ranges.

I also think that both Primarchs cost too much for what they offer across an entire game of 40k.

 

None of the above is a contradiction with the fact that Dark Angels are Marines +1. They have more options and flexibility, and are one of 4 chapters that receive significant preferential treatment (More unique models, exclusive supplements, lore).

[Karhedron]

OK people, enough splitting hairs.

 

The title of the thread is whether Dark Angels are appropriately powerful.

 

Please stop arguing about whether more choices count as "+1", even if they are bad. It is just semantics and is irrelevant to the issue most people are here to discuss. Please keep the discussion on track before we have to start pruning posts.

 

Thank you 

[Orange Knight]

I agree that some of the Dark Angel units are costed too hight. Others are perfectly fine.

 

The supplement could do with a power boost.

 

This topic is contentious because TC specifically asked if DA are Marines + 1. If we look at it though the lens of power and nothing else, as things stand today, then the answer would be no.

[Marshal Reinhard]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

Helbrect isn't relevant to a discussion about Marines +1 because his chapter is already +1?

Helbrecht isn't relevant to a discussion on wether anyone else (in this case DA) compared to vanilla SM are +1 or not. Helbrecht is BT. BT are not baseline SM. DA are not giving up Helbrecht by being DA as oppossed to being SM. They give up Helbrecht by not being BT.

 

If you want, I'll gladly concede that DA are definately BT -1.

Edited January 23 by Marshal Reinhard

[DemonGSides]

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I agree that some of the Dark Angel units are costed too hight. Others are perfectly fine.

 

The supplement could do with a power boost.

 

This topic is contentious because TC specifically asked if DA are Marines + 1. If we look at it though the lens of power and nothing else, as things stand today, then the answer would be no.

 

Im just not sure what other lens is worth considering. Narrative or casual gamers don't care if DA is Marines+1, regardless of what the definition of Marines+1 is. They're there to roll dice eat pretzels and make pew pew noises.

 

So really, Marines+1 only matters when discussing things in a competitive sense, at which point I think you're just wrong and Tacticus has the measure of it. Viability is king in competitive spaces, and that basically means the intersection of cost v power.  Anything else is just set dressing; having a worse or similar solution is effectively negligible, so you're not gonna care if Deathwing Terminators are worse, only if they are better.

 

Regarding the original question, I don't think DA are too powerful, but plenty of people around here were gnawing their legs off about Dark Pacts being useless, and right now that's one of the strongest armies. I think time will tell better than any of us in conglomeration will be able to! Lol 

[Blindhamster]

Well, this was a painful conversation to read lol.

[AutumnEffect]

12 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Well, this was a painful conversation to read lol.

 

You shouldn't really post things like this. It's not constructive, contributory to the conversation and really just inflames potential feelings even more.

 

The point of a Forum is to have a conversation and part of that is debating, even about things that you might disagree with or find annoying. If you don't enjoy the conversation being had fine, but there's no reason to insult everyone taking part in it.

[WAR]

I am locking this thread for the next few days as I just have read through this and the off Topic and Arguing about the Off Topic is a bit much. Everyone needs to be respectful to each other and if you can not do that just ignore the individual or report them.