Positivity on the new Codex.

[Lion El Jason]

OK, so we've mostly seen the "Range Refresh" and if this is what they mean, that phrase will strike fear into collectors of every faction when GW announces another one.  Whatever you play, they are coming for you!

Yes the codex is a disappointment*.  One, rarely used, model got a minor buff and the rest of the codex was nerfs.  Unnecessary nerfs.  Nobody can justify a single change in this codex, Dark Angels were under the 45% win rate for most of 10th so far.

 

However.  We're stuck with this total junk now and we're not the faction to give up on a bad codex (If we were there would have been zero DA players from 3rd to 6th ed!).

So positives from the new codex here, please add more as we discover them and see new possibilities.

 

1:  Azrael.  OK we're basically codex: Azrael at this point but he is the daddy.  Arguably the best Chapter Master in the game, he improves almost every option he can go with, gives CPs and at 105 points (OK we can't guarantee this) he's a steal.  He can happily add to melee or ranged and be a massive benefit. 

The Companions seem almost designed to go with him.  He gives them Sustained, they have Lethal already.  They need an Inv save, which he provides.  While they don't do much for Azrael in return, -1 to hit is ok I guess, he doesn't need it.
Azrael also goes well in Sternguard, Hellblasters and Bladeguard (Though you're not getting full use from his Lion Helm then).

 

2:  Inner Circle Detatchment.  Well, its not great for running all Deathwing.  It does add some helpful benefits however.

The stratagems are not nothing here.  Martial Mastery is close though, you will rarely need to stack rerolls with +1 to wound on a Deathwing Squad.  When you do need it, its there though and I'm not against niche strats.  
Duty Unto Death is better as a deterrent than it is in use but still, if they try to shift you, you should have some good counter-punch with this.
The Teleportarium Strat would have been great with 10 Knights but whatever.  Its OK with shooting Terminators and, absent something like Infiltrators, will make screening almost impossible.
You know all those Mortal Wound strats that are usually capped at 6 Mortals?  Deathwing get one capped at 3 instead to make it useless.
The -1 to wound strat is again ok.  It gives another option alongside AoC and go to ground so you have more options and could play more of them.  Sometimes its better than AoC.
So you can find decent ones to use.  None of these grant Lethal or Sustained and none give crits on 5+ which is where the damage comes from in the vanilla detachments but there are options.
Note: you can put a Deathwing character in any unit and the unit now has that keyword.  Something like Hellblasters with Azrael getting +1 to wound is actually good.
So yeah, Gladius is just better but this has options to explore.

 

3:  Unforgiven Fury.  This is possibly the best strategem of its kind.  From turn 2 onward something in your army should be battleshocked (Build your list to help this happen!) and so you can have 2 units critting on 5+ and they gain Lethal hits.  This will combo particularly well with Terminator Librarians, Azrael and anything that comes with Sustained built in (Companions and Incursors for example).  So the Detatchment rule and Unbreakable Lines are both duds but this one strat can be a reason to play Unforgiven.
Also the Weapons of the First Legion and Pennant of Remembrance come in the same Detatchment and are also superb.  Superb.

 

4:  Maybe Ravenwing?  I mean DO NOT buy any Ravenwing models, god no.  Those are dead weight.
The core rule of the detatchment applies to everything though so being able to army wide Fall Back/ Advance and shoot is a nice start.  There is no way to make a competitive bike list but making a green marine list with some terminators and use the detatchment rule is a possibility.  
You also get to win games while suffering what seems to be the absolute worst stratagem in the game:  Death on the Wind.  This goes towards bragging rights.
Uppy-downy is strong.  Not sure Ravenwing with big moves need it but its there.
Sticky Objectives can be good too.  You need a RW unit so its an investment but its there.

There are 2 Ravenwing Characters who can have the enhancements.  One is a Champion and should have had Precision built in, this makes Master Crafted Weapon laughable.  But to be fair** its cheap, if you have 10 points left over its not a bad choice.

 

5:  Companions.  Obviously laughable at the points in the book.  If these are more reasonable, 75 for 3 maybe, they have places in a list.
Azrael comes to mind, giving them sustained to go with their Lethal.
Ezekiel gives them +1 Attack which is great.  No defense however (Except against psychics) so they'd need a land raider or something.
If you're looking to use the Sustained 2, Unforgiven Fury is great on these.  Sadly they shine in gladius because their AP is too low and its the only way to improve it.

 

6:  Darkshroud.  They forgot to nerf this.  Its a decent, if slightly overcosted, protection aura on a fast vehicle that can do secondaries late game.
In a book full of nerfs, the niche unit that remained unchanged rises to the top...

 

7:  Deathwing Terminators.  Lets just be happy that Lightning Claws suck, Thunder Hammers are not significantly better than power fists, and the Storm Shield is less relevant than ever.
Deathwing still ignore modifiers to the hit roll and get +1 to hit so... yay?  Well if they are, say 5-10 points over vanilla terminators this is a good unit.  Any more and you probably just take the vanilla datasheet.  So there's hope.
Since DW Knights are 100% dead and gone***, using these for melee is going to be the future.  The powerfists are good though so I think they will cope.

 

8:  Azmodai.  Terrible for 8 editions straight!  10 must be his number, because he's...  ok.  The FIRST EVER marine to cross the rubicon primaris and not gain a Wound!  Guiness record material right there.  
Now this is a bit of a reach but...  his printed cost in the codex (Which all the big boys online are saying will all likely go down) is actually lower than his current MFM points cost.
If he goes down in points again he'll be same or less than a regular chappy.  Which would be nice.

The option to choose re-roll all melee attacks is a nice tool to have now that he can lead Bladeguard and Companions (Or even assault Intercessors).  
This choice allows for better layering of buffs and tailoring the buffs to the unit.  He's also slightly better than a chaplain in melee.
The one downside is the time you need to waste every fight phase going through his battle shock rule but if you keep quiet, its not likely your opponent will force you to do it ;)

 

So yeah that's it.  Not all doom and gloom.  In a 100 page book there are 8 things that are positive.  Please add more positive things below because many of us just spent £135 on a box of jank and need to feel better!

 

 

 

 

*You could literally put everyone who worked on this codex in a bag and punch it.  Whoever you hit, would deserve it.  Don't.  But morally you'd be clean.

**to be fair, to be fair, to be faaaaaaaaaaaair!

***OK, like 95%.  A HUGE points cut could save them.  And the new model kit looks top.

 

[Tokugawa]

Rules can be adjusted in months, models can't. Cool new models could be cool for 10-15 years. So needn't worry about the very weak rules of Inner Circle bodyguards.

 

Positive thinking: If the new rules for your faction is underwhelming, trust me, it being "very very weak" is much more better than "weak". The former usually ensures a patch is coming on the way. The latter doesn't ensure anything.

Edited January 21 by Tokugawa

[Balthamal]

I know I'm firmly in the minority here but since all I ever intend to play is crusade and not come within a mile of any sort of competitive game, I'm relatively happy. Models look cool, rules and points will always change (I fully expect to see a day one update tbh) and there's some potential overlap with the 30k collection I have. All in all, could have been a lot worse.

[Tacitus]

I'm also going to second guess the Ravenwing thing - A Ravenwing Command Squad with a Black Knight or Outrider unit has some serious potential.  9x M12 T5 W4 3+/5++ Resurrecting/plasma shotoing/etc models unit is pretty decent.   I think we may be too quickly discounting this setup. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

With multiple sources of movement and some possibilities for quite strong bike units, I think Ravenwing is going to shake out to be good. There's some utility with non-bike units as well with the trait, so I'm definitely thinking we'll see that detachment hit the table.

[SvenONE]

I think this new codex and box is great for folks who are newer or entirely new to the faction and have maybe been lurking at the fringes of it and looking for a good time to jump in.

 

Players who know the trials and tribulations this faction has gine through I think are in a "here we go again" moment that, after 9th edition, we were hoping we were passed. This isn't the worst codex we've seen, but we havent necessarily gone through a codex that nullifies part of your collection. After all this is already on the heels of bikes and speeders going to Legends.

 

The cynic/realist in me also knows DA vets with mature collections dont give their money over to GW as often as they would like. I didnt buy this box, not out of spite, just simply because I just dont need any more bone colored terminators ha!

 

This community has always been great about rolling with the changes though in time. It's just that this time around the changes call into question the amount of time we've spent in the hobby, reconciling that bc of some words on paper, GW deleted units people spent time on and liked to play with. I appreciate the positivity, but it's ok to let people vent. It'll die down*.

 

*Except the LSV damage change, I want us to continue to bitch about this unit forever until GW makes it op haha. Poor LSV.

 

 

Edited January 21 by SvenONE

[L30n1d4s]

I think there are some "hidden" positives in the Inner Circle Detachment:

 

1 - Deathwing characters (like Azrael, Asmodai, Ezekiel, etc.) can join non- Deathwing units (like Hellblaster, Intercessors, Assault Intercessors, Infernus squads, etc.) and give them access to the Deathwing Key Word (and so, access to the Detachment strats and abilities). Like they point out over on Goonhammer, Azrael with Hellblasters or Asmodai with Assault Intercessors can take advantage of the +1 to wound and other Detachment abilities quite well... Hellblasters with Sustained Hits, +1 to Wound against a target, a 4++, and -1 to wound from Enemy shooting (and potentially Stealth from a nearby Darkshroud) is very powerful.

 

2 - Now that Vanguard Vets are Deathwing, you can use the Strat to Deepstrike them 3" away from enemy units and unleash the Grenade Strat and all their Inferno Pistols at point blank range (kind of like DA versions of Seraphim).

 

3 - Eye of the Unseen combined with a Terminator Captain -- target the TDA Captain's unit with a Battle Tactic, get it for free, then roll and see if you get +1CP on a 5+

 

Edited January 21 by L30n1d4s

[Tacitus]

45 minutes ago, L30n1d4s said:

 

 

3 - Eye of the Unseen combined with a Terminator Captain -- target the TDA Captain's unit with a Battle Tactic, get it for free, then roll and see if you get +1CP on a 5+

 

Doesn't work if you're also using Azrael.  Can only gain 1 extra CP per, and Azrael just flat gives you one. 

[Galron]

So the Strike master is gone? No more way to give deep striking terminators lethal hits or did they make a new generic DW terminator LT? Thats the only real nerf I can see to my list, I never went hard core into the DA specific stuff. I'll have to look into the terminator options to see what my Cenobium will count as this time around. I was using them as assault terminators with thunder hammers.

[Karhedron]

Ravening Command Squad + Black Knights + Bike Chaplain (assuming you can stack the Chaplain with this combo). Adding Devastating Wounds to all those 2D plasma attacks seems pretty tasty.

[FarFromSam]

I appreciate the attempt.  We may have to go super skew all in turn 1.  Turn 2 sees if the game is a win or loss.

 

Turn 1 DW DS, or Turn 1 double advance RW charge.   Neither are nuanced, require much tact, or much fun, but might catch someone off guard.  If nothing else, not many models to lug around, and the games will be short.   

[Tacitus]

58 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Ravening Command Squad + Black Knights + Bike Chaplain (assuming you can stack the Chaplain with this combo). Adding Devastating Wounds to all those 2D plasma attacks seems pretty tasty.

As near as I can tell you can't double up a Ravenwing Command Squad and any other Leader.  Their Datasheet doesn't have the "You can attach with a Captain etc" bonus rule - and that would be my second choice - first is Sammael - advance, shoot, charge all on the same turn with 10 models - its basically what I'm doing with Calgar and Bladeguard only on bike speed models.  Having a second brick that can advance and shoot (Hunter Det) Devastating Plasma is also nice, but I'd be tempted to skip the Advance if I can shoot Devastating Plasma, and then charge in with +1 to wound.  

 

Quote

So the Strike master is gone? No more way to give deep striking terminators lethal hits or did they make a new generic DW terminator LT? Thats the only real nerf I can see to my list, I never went hard core into the DA specific stuff. I'll have to look into the terminator options to see what my Cenobium will count as this time around. I was using them as assault terminators with thunder hammers.

Yeah the Strike Master is gone.   The Deathwing Knights are now capped at 5, and have an alternate less interesting weapon load that basically swaps AP-2 D1 and AP-1 D2  The Deathwing Command Squad and Mixed Weapons on a Deathwing Terminator Squad are also gone.  Deathwing got hit pretty hard.

 

The Inner Circle Companions are in an interesting spot for Azrael, you only get one Azrael and he does a lot for a lot of squads.  Azrael + ICC will probably be quite a fad for a little while until people start picking his gimmick squad - say Hellblasters and Sternguard, maybe a funny guy here and there who sticks on him Infernus Squads - based on the rest of their army. 

 

To get back to the request for positives - the Ravenwing came out the best, The Deathwing Det is better than the Grimdark default one in the Index but both probably suffer behind the core book 1st Company Strike Force. 

 

I'm sort of theory crafting Zeke, and a bunch of Reivers sniping Angron/Morty/etc by getting to within 6" to force an incredibly difficult Battle Shock Test that then results in their INSTANT DEATH from Fear Made Manifest.   Its a one trick pony, and I've got to figure out what goes around it, but its an HYSTERICAL one trick pony as I imagine the faces of the people watching Angron run away like a little girl because of some Reivers and a Libby.  I imagine it would be something like the people watching Luke beat the Rancor. 

[Lion El Jason]

ICC are actually pretty good in Unforgiven, maybe with Ezekiel.
You have a strat for 5+ crits and Lethal, so choose the Sustained (2) option and it looks good.
If you think you need an invulnerable, a regular librarian can join them.

[Tacitus]

11 minutes ago, Lion El Jason said:

ICC are actually pretty good in Unforgiven, maybe with Ezekiel.
You have a strat for 5+ crits and Lethal, so choose the Sustained (2) option and it looks good.
If you think you need an invulnerable, a regular librarian can join them.

A regular Libby precludes any other character joining, which means the only enhancement they'll get is... the Libby.  Meanwhile BGV already have the invlun and can join up a Cap and LT.   The only time ICC realistically compare/compete with BGV is as a vehicle for Azrael. 

[Karhedron]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:22 PM, Tacitus said:

As near as I can tell you can't double up a Ravenwing Command Squad and any other Leader.  Their Datasheet doesn't have the "You can attach with a Captain etc" bonus rule

 

Looks like you are right. I was speculating without having seen the datasheets.

 

On the plus side, I think that Azrael + ICCs would still allow you to attach an Apothecary. Most squad that can have an Apothecary are 2 Wound but ICCs are 3 (although the Ravenwing Command squad also has the ability to bring back 3 and 4 Wound models). Deathwing Command squad may be gone but DAs still get good mileage out of their healers.

[Aeliel]

I’m going to go out on a limb here. I think they are attempting to move to a less board sweep game and we caught some stray nerfs that were over compensating. BUT I don’t think our situation is pure gloom and doom. We mostly have index’s to compare our nerfs to. So maybe it’ll balance out as index’s get phased out. 

[Tacitus]

6 minutes ago, Aeliel said:

I’m going to go out on a limb here. I think they are attempting to move to a less board sweep game and we caught some stray nerfs that were over compensating. BUT I don’t think our situation is pure gloom and doom. We mostly have index’s to compare our nerfs to. So maybe it’ll balance out as index’s get phased out. 

We have the SM Codex. Which means we have a codex of the things the DA specific units are competing against for Slot. 

 

Guilliman is arguably better, and the argument is easy, though the "better" is small. 

BGV are better than ICC in all but one - MAYBE two cases.

Terminators are not good.  Better Terminators are not Good either.

The Detachments are generally not better.

The Ravenwing GENERALLY came out OK, but that's about it. 

 

The hope here is that there are more units in a second wave pipeline - the return of the Strike/Talon Master/Deathwing Command Squad, the return of a Ravenwing Squadron with 5 Outriders, 1 ATV, and 1 Stormspeeder for 10 person (2)units that act independently on the tabletop.  A generic and fairly significant price drop on Terminators may help them as well.   If Terminators drop 7 PPM (or even slightly more) its a whole new ball game.  I'd start out by doing the 7 point drop and seeing what happens. 

 

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Tacitus said:

The hope here is that there are more units in a second wave pipeline - the return of the Strike/Talon Master/Deathwing Command Squad, the return of a Ravenwing Squadron

 

I am almost certain there will not be. If those models were coming, they would have left entries in the Codex. In the same way that GW do not provide rules for units that do not have models anymore, I think they largely avoid producing models for things that have been removed from the rules.

 

I am pretty sure that what we have now will be all we get for the duration of 10th edition (except maybe a one-off like Ezekiel crossing the rubicon).

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I am almost certain there will not be. If those models were coming, they would have left entries in the Codex. In the same way that GW do not provide rules for units that do not have models anymore, I think they largely avoid producing models for things that have been removed from the rules.

 

I am pretty sure that what we have now will be all we get for the duration of 10th edition (except maybe a one-off like Ezekiel crossing the rubicon).

Scouts left the Codex, and then came back as a "new" datasheet.  I'm suggesting they may have removed some units - the DA "Master" lieutenants for example - that will then come back later as a "new" datasheet.  I'm not sure it'll be the Strike or Talon -Master, but it could be something.  Maybe the Deathwing mixed weapon squads after the Melee-Nators release - Even more, I do expect to still see a new Vanguard Kit, and Terminator Assault Kit before 11th drops. 

[FashaTheDog]

On the plus side:

1. I have 110 Deathwing Terminators and more on the way. 
2. I finally will have a Belial model I do not think is going wet himself; that will now be a Strikemaster. 
3. I will still only run Terminators 95% of the time.
4. The new Terminator kit is a good excuse to get me closer to showing up at an Apocalypse game with THE Deathwing.  All of it.
5. Actually, I do not need an excuse.

 

As for the downside:

1. I am too stubborn to acknowledge any downside and even if I did it would kept secret so no one, especially me, would ever know.

Edited January 29 by FashaTheDog

[Balthamal]

7 hours ago, FashaTheDog said:

1. I am too stubborn to acknowledge any downside and even if I did it would kept secret so no one, especially me, would ever know.

 

Truly the stubborn resolve of the First Legion is the stuff of legend 

[aura_enchanted]

i will be sitting this edition and these models out, sorry i put my foot down here, this far and no further. if games workshop wants my time and money they can either make changes or come to my address for it in person

Edited January 29 by aura_enchanted

[NTaW]

10 hours ago, FashaTheDog said:

I have 110 Deathwing Terminators and more on the way.

 

 jeeze and here I thought I was mad with 30 plus characters! Well done 

 

 

I too will be playing a full Deathwing army this edition. First time since 7th I've felt confident about putting an all-Terminator army on the table.

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, aura_enchanted said:

i will be sitting this edition and these models out, sorry i put my foot down here, this far and no further. if games workshop wants my time and money they can either make changes or come to my address for it in person

 

Yeah. The hyper focus on "no model no rules" hit home big time with this release. Now you have to predict what might or might not be getting a model refresh during the brief lifetime of your codex if you want to be sure you can use something.

 

The curtain has been pulled back hard to reveal that this really is a product to consume when and how Games Workshop wants you to, not a game world to get lost in, and they are not even trying to pretend otherwise.

 

Now is definitely a good time to check out other ways to play with your minis. Who knows, maybe in a few editions GW will swing back around to making worlds instead of IPs.

[Alternis]

I’m just looking forward to running 

 

Azrael & Apothecary > Companions 

Then experimenting with enhancements in different detachments on the apothecary to make the entire unit go from Good > Scary.