Positivity on the new Codex.

[WrathOfTheLion]

4 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Yeah. The hyper focus on "no model no rules" hit home big time with this release. Now you have to predict what might or might not be getting a model refresh during the brief lifetime of your codex if you want to be sure you can use something.

This is why I'm not going to do Vanguard Veterans. Those are almost certainly getting updated, and there's a really good chance they'll mess around with the loadouts. I'll still play with the Codex and pivot, but I think there's wisdom in only adding what's recently been updated, even if some of the other stuff has some cool options. There's no reason to expand what might be invalidated in possibly a fairly short amount of time.

 

What I'll have to do with my older Terminators is use some of the ones I haven't built yet to pad out some older squads, and shift models around to make them valid squads again.

 

It is one main thing that makes me like focusing on 30k right now. I've always liked it more than 40k, even as I got in during 7E, and they generally treat you like an adult with their datasheets and philosophy there.

Edited January 29 by WrathOfTheLion

[FashaTheDog]

13 hours ago, NTaW said:

 

 jeeze and here I thought I was mad with 30 plus characters! Well done 

 

 

I too will be playing a full Deathwing army this edition. First time since 7th I've felt confident about putting an all-Terminator army on the table.

 

I probably have a bit more time than you to build to that number as I bought this box when it first came out and have added more blisters, boxes, and couple of Space Hulks.  It adds up over the decades.  

 

Edited January 30 by FashaTheDog

[saint_hereward]

Wow. That box is a blast from the past! I remember trying to save up for it and then always buying another blister pack of something instead of waiting.

 

Any advice for an all-terminator armour army list? I was thinking:

 

• Terminator captain
• Terminator chaplain
• Terminator librarian
• Ezekiel
• At least 20 terminators, including 1x assault squad
• Redemptor
• Ballistus
• Land Raider

I’m looking forward to the new codex. As a returning player who has only painted models since restarting the hobby 5 years ago, I’m keen to learn how to make Deathwing work against my friends.

[Progenitor]

Same! I wanted that box back in the day and I think the time I actually went to buy it they'd stopped selling it. I love the old school stuff like this, the artwork on that box is just *chef's kiss*

[NTaW]

16 hours ago, FashaTheDog said:

It adds up over the decades.

 

That it does! I've purged a few times over the years, but 1st edition Space Hulk is what brought me to the setting and I'll always have a collection of DA and BA in TDA as a result 

 

Anyone else find the recent points changes interesting? Seems odd to drop points for a few units just to change it again when the book is released, as they mentioned would happen in the WarCom article, but I'll take it.

 

Edited January 30 by NTaW

[WrathOfTheLion]

The index will stay as the valid publication in tournaments until the Codex is released separately, outside the Deathwing Assault box. So for matched play, these will stay valid until that happens in a month or two, whenever they decide to release the standalone book and the other kits.

[FashaTheDog]

14 hours ago, saint_hereward said:

Wow. That box is a blast from the past! I remember trying to save up for it and then always buying another blister pack of something instead of waiting.

 

Any advice for an all-terminator armour army list? I was thinking:

 

• Terminator captain
• Terminator chaplain
• Terminator librarian
• Ezekiel
• At least 20 terminators, including 1x assault squad
• Redemptor
• Ballistus
• Land Raider

I’m looking forward to the new codex. As a returning player who has only painted models since restarting the hobby 5 years ago, I’m keen to learn how to make Deathwing work against my friends.

I have always done best when I run just Terminators.  Belial, a Terminator Librarian, and as many Deathwing Terminators/Command Squads as you have points for.  Outside of hyper competitive environments many lists will find the wall of Deathwing a daunting prospect.  Visually a sea of Tactical Dreadnought Armor does throw a fair number of players so they never really focus on what they should and worry about the walking wall of doom.

[Lion El Jason]

On 1/29/2024 at 1:54 AM, FashaTheDog said:

1. The new Terminator kit is a good excuse to get me closer to showing up at an Apocalypse game with THE Deathwing.  All of it.

 

I have 150+ Terminators with close to 100 painted.  I also have 2 of every combo of combi weapon, Storm Bolter (And no weapon) and force weapon for terminator Librarians and every combo for chaplains with a significant amount of Masters with all kinds or weapons.
Plus 23 Land Raiders for them of every type that can transport.

I got to play it all once...  very much worth it.

[Lion El Jason]

At least the box looks good.
And only a week late, thanks GW.

[Tacitus]

On 1/30/2024 at 2:37 PM, FashaTheDog said:

I have always done best when I run just Terminators.  Belial, a Terminator Librarian, and as many Deathwing Terminators/Command Squads as you have points for.  Outside of hyper competitive environments many lists will find the wall of Deathwing a daunting prospect.  Visually a sea of Tactical Dreadnought Armor does throw a fair number of players so they never really focus on what they should and worry about the walking wall of doom.

Ever since either 6th or 7th I've been a fan of Raven+Death wing trying to do roughly half and half with Ravenwing hammers hitting Deathwing Anvils.  When I first got into it you could use Sammael to turn Ravenwing bikers into TROOPS and Belial did the same for Terminators.   It was something of an early Adeptus Custodes - and probably some sort of proof of concept for Custodes.  Full Terminators are a little slow, adding the bikes in a complementary way usually helps a lot. 

[Progenitor]

If Ravenwing now applies to everything that has the FLY keyword then don't we suddenly need to repaint all our Inceptors black? Same with all the Dreads now being Deathwing...... I'm not expecting people to do this, but I was thinking about my own force and wondering how cool Ravenwing inceptors might actually be. 

[Tokugawa]

9 hours ago, Progenitor said:

If Ravenwing now applies to everything that has the FLY keyword then don't we suddenly need to repaint all our Inceptors black? Same with all the Dreads now being Deathwing...... I'm not expecting people to do this, but I was thinking about my own force and wondering how cool Ravenwing inceptors might actually be. 

Need Fly and Vehicle keywords.

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Need Fly and Vehicle keywords.

Even then I wouldn't do it.  Everything is stirred up from the major rewrite here.  I would expect it to settle down again in late 10th or even into 11th.  I would expect Dreads will go back to Greenwing, unless inducted for a point upgrade.  Same with the Stormraven Gunship.  Green and Deathwing - and never Ravenwing.

the Storm Talon Gunship and Stormhawk Interceptor will be Greenwing only.

 

I would expect Land Raiders and Repulsors to be Greenwing - inductible to the Deathwing

 

Stormspeeders are Greenwing but inductible to the Ravenwing. 

 

Basicaly we're in the middle of the squish.  Core book units are now in the Dark Angels.  I expect/hope some of them will go back to Greenwing+ to represent the battle companies using Storm Speeders like a normal battle company, with the best being promoted to the Ravenwing for example. 

[Prot]

On 1/30/2024 at 1:47 AM, saint_hereward said:

 

 

Any advice for an all-terminator armour army list? I was thinking:

 

• Terminator captain
• Terminator chaplain
• Terminator librarian
• Ezekiel
• At least 20 terminators, including 1x assault squad
• Redemptor
• Ballistus
• Land Raider

I’m looking forward to the new codex. As a returning player who has only painted models since restarting the hobby 5 years ago, I’m keen to learn how to make Deathwing work against my friends.

 

I'm planning on doing something similar for this Friday. I basically got into DA originally eons ago because of the 'wings' and Deathwing originally, and then grew to love Ravenwing.

 

I'm also trying to do a Deathwing list, and I have a wide range of opponents so when I think of an all comers list, I'm usually including some of the shootier components becaue I will run into armies that are far better at close combat and I don't think the survivability aspect of the Termies will counter the lack of damage. So I've got a bit more shooty stuff than you planned, but I'd like to also make my core include 15 Termies (basically the box set) and Belial even if he is less than stellar in ability.

 

I do love landraiders but I will probably skip it for now to keep points for the shooty units I like to use. 

[Tacitus]

15 hours ago, Prot said:

 

I'm planning on doing something similar for this Friday. I basically got into DA originally eons ago because of the 'wings' and Deathwing originally, and then grew to love Ravenwing.

 

I'm also trying to do a Deathwing list, and I have a wide range of opponents so when I think of an all comers list, I'm usually including some of the shootier components becaue I will run into armies that are far better at close combat and I don't think the survivability aspect of the Termies will counter the lack of damage. So I've got a bit more shooty stuff than you planned, but I'd like to also make my core include 15 Termies (basically the box set) and Belial even if he is less than stellar in ability.

 

I do love landraiders but I will probably skip it for now to keep points for the shooty units I like to use. 

Yeah I think this edition more than any other the Deathwing needs the Ravenwing - especially more than the Ravenwing needs the Deathwing.   Ravenwing can get just SOOO much Plasma on 3+/5++ models.  Lightning Claws have been absolutely left behind - if Powerfists and Thunderhammers are doing 3 or 4 attacks, Lightning Claws should be doing closer to 6 or 8 especially if they stay at D1 - though Twin Linked 6A and S5 -2 D2 would be a pretty good sweet spot to actually force a choice between TH/SS and TLLC.   I'm hoping for a Day 1 FAQ to fix the Inner Circle Task Force.  Its just got sooo many keyword problems for non-Terminator Inner Circle/Deathwing. 

[Prot]

3 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Yeah I think this edition more than any other the Deathwing needs the Ravenwing - especially more than the Ravenwing needs the Deathwing.   Ravenwing can get just SOOO much Plasma on 3+/5++ models.  Lightning Claws have been absolutely left behind - if Powerfists and Thunderhammers are doing 3 or 4 attacks, Lightning Claws should be doing closer to 6 or 8 especially if they stay at D1 - though Twin Linked 6A and S5 -2 D2 would be a pretty good sweet spot to actually force a choice between TH/SS and TLLC.   I'm hoping for a Day 1 FAQ to fix the Inner Circle Task Force.  Its just got sooo many keyword problems for non-Terminator Inner Circle/Deathwing. 

 

Yup, as I read the codex in more depth, the Ravenwing went from looking like something 'fun to try' to something I think might be the lynchpin of the codex especially when it comes to scoring. The more I looked at the command squad, Sammael, the detachment rules are just flat out solid. These are rules that just score you points much easier. The base rules of the Ravenwing are a part of the reason people take the Gladius.

 

At the end of the day the more I read the Ravenwing units/rules I had to wonder why GW focused so hard on the Termie aspect for releases. I love what they did with the models, but really those Ravenwing are so old I can't bring myself to field my old ones, or old Sammy, or put together new ones (I have ancient boxes of bits left over).  

 

If they updated the Ravenwing line with the rules they released I think they'd be quite profitable with it. 

 

That said I'm still happy about the Deathwing models. Just a bit surprised.

[NTaW]

1 hour ago, Prot said:

If they updated the Ravenwing line with the rules they released I think they'd be quite profitable with it.

 

Let's face it. They're profitable no matter what they release 

 

I think, given that Deathwing Terminators were reduced to an upgrade sprue, the Ravenwing may be consigned to available kits + that same sprue for a while. They 'had' to do Terminators first because they're the poster-unit for the edition, and with Ravenwing being more boxes total it's also easier to leave them for another time.

 

I'd bet we won't see Ravenwing get new models until older Flyers start to get rotated out, which I imagine will follow the Rhino chassis going away. Happy to be wrong if course.

 

The synergy between the 1st and 2nd Companies really should be a focal point in the book, since that's been the niche DA have occupied for decades. I'm glad to hear that the bike options are still useful (even if I only play Deathwing).

[Tacitus]

15 hours ago, Prot said:

 

Yup, as I read the codex in more depth, the Ravenwing went from looking like something 'fun to try' to something I think might be the lynchpin of the codex especially when it comes to scoring. The more I looked at the command squad, Sammael, the detachment rules are just flat out solid. These are rules that just score you points much easier. The base rules of the Ravenwing are a part of the reason people take the Gladius.

 

At the end of the day the more I read the Ravenwing units/rules I had to wonder why GW focused so hard on the Termie aspect for releases. I love what they did with the models, but really those Ravenwing are so old I can't bring myself to field my old ones, or old Sammy, or put together new ones (I have ancient boxes of bits left over).  

 

If they updated the Ravenwing line with the rules they released I think they'd be quite profitable with it. 

 

That said I'm still happy about the Deathwing models. Just a bit surprised.

I'm assuming incompetence.  The Inner Circle Detachment is a dumpster fire of KEYWORD problems.   

This was probably exacerbated by Bang For Buck calculations.  Ravenwing Models do not cross over chapters.  Terminators do.  

Top that off with GW thinking they made good instead of meh rules for Terminators. 

[Tacitus]

13 hours ago, NTaW said:

 

Let's face it. They're profitable no matter what they release 

 

I think, given that Deathwing Terminators were reduced to an upgrade sprue, the Ravenwing may be consigned to available kits + that same sprue for a while. They 'had' to do Terminators first because they're the poster-unit for the edition, and with Ravenwing being more boxes total it's also easier to leave them for another time.

 

I'd bet we won't see Ravenwing get new models until older Flyers start to get rotated out, which I imagine will follow the Rhino chassis going away. Happy to be wrong if course.

 

The synergy between the 1st and 2nd Companies really should be a focal point in the book, since that's been the niche DA have occupied for decades. I'm glad to hear that the bike options are still useful (even if I only play Deathwing).

I half expect the Tac Squad, Dev Squad and Rhinos to phase out.  I think Land Raiders are close but not yet because they were the top dog in the Dawn of War games and probably still generate a little income from that tie in. 

 

The problem with DW+RW is another problem with the book they totally dropped the ball on - there should be a Det for Just Deathwing and Ravenwing together using the White Scars/Lightning whatchamacallit Det as a guide.  Half Mounted, Half Deathwing strats and enhancements.  Of course its all further hamstrung by a lack of MOUNTED CHARACTERS who can take an enhancement.  Major Oopsie from GW. 

[ValourousHeart]

On 2/16/2024 at 9:49 AM, NTaW said:

Let's face it. They're profitable no matter what they release 

 

That isn't accurate.  In fact GW has been working with a lot of different groups to get their sales model back to profitable.  There are numerous components from logistics and raw materials, to the buying patterners of the customers that are all impacting costs and returns.

 

For some reason there are some really short sighted people out there that thing if a kit sold for $50 before and now sells for $65 that GW is making $15 more profit over the profit they were already making on that kit.  But the reality is that the $50 kit used to cost GW $25, and now costs GW $60.

 

 

On 2/16/2024 at 11:08 PM, Tacitus said:

I half expect the Tac Squad, Dev Squad and Rhinos to phase out.  I think Land Raiders are close but not yet because they were the top dog in the Dawn of War games and probably still generate a little income from that tie in. 

 

It amazes me how much people fail to see how well GW listens to us.  But I guess the issue is that we claim to want one thing in these forums, but we spend our money on a different thing at the register.

 

People sometimes complain about the lack of options in kits.  But over the years Ebay sales of cheap mono-pose starter set lots have filled our collections.  We hate that GW's ordering system makes it so easy for scalpers to snatch up most of the releases.  But far to many of us are willing to support the scalpers by buying those items at ludicrous prices.

 

And the best one is GW tells us they are going to keep the older lines going as long as they are selling.  And the community organizes a boycott on buying those older kits.  And then we are shocked when those kits get phased out.

[Tacitus]

13 hours ago, ValourousHeart said:

 

It amazes me how much people fail to see how well GW listens to us.  But I guess the issue is that we claim to want one thing in these forums, but we spend our money on a different thing at the register.

Nice sweeping statement to imply everyone who disagrees with you is stupid.   How many people do you know that buy another Tac Squad Kit after they already have six because they say they love Tac Squads on the forum but never buy any at the register? 

 

Quote

People sometimes complain about the lack of options in kits.  But over the years Ebay sales of cheap mono-pose starter set lots have filled our collections.  We hate that GW's ordering system makes it so easy for scalpers to snatch up most of the releases.  But far to many of us are willing to support the scalpers by buying those items at ludicrous prices.

Pose is not the sum total of "options".   Options have zero to do with Ebay Scalpers.  Ebay Scalpers have nothing to do with GW plans vis-a-vis Kit releases.   Ebay Scalpers are also a convenient boogey man, when most of the Ebay sellers appear to be people runing a home-based miniature store and/or a brick and mortar store doing business over ebay - which you can figure out by looking at the Deathwing Assault Box.  Its sold out on the GW website but it's listed for $220 and can be found on Ebay for $215-$220 pretty easily.   Brick And Mortar store trying to move overstock or truly stupid Scalper selling for less than they paid for a limited release, even though "people are supporting them by buying stuff". 

 

Quote

And the best one is GW tells us they are going to keep the older lines going as long as they are selling.  And the community organizes a boycott on buying those older kits.  And then we are shocked when those kits get phased out.

People not doing what they already didn't do isn't a boycott.  A few people screaming into the void that is the internet isn't organized.  There is no boycott just like there was no clamor for a new line of Marines that would take forever to replace existing units over the course of a decade or longer.   The swap from Firstborn to Primaris was entirely conceived and implemented by GW without our input.  

 

On the flip side, they do listen to us, even when we aren't being careful what we wish for.  People railing against "bloat" (which was usually code for "The Factions I don't like have rules I don't like") have gotten us the shallow game we have this edition and nobody got their fun rules.   While I enjoy watching some of them start complaining "I didn't mean MY fun rules", its not how it works when GW listens to us usually. 

 

My final response if to point out threatening your customers if they don't buy more of the unit they don't need because they already have a Ro3 covered isn't how you sell the kits and GW knows it, its why they redesign the kits every so often adding bits, changing size and such.   The easiest deduction from Primaris is they reached a critical mass on their biggest selling model line that pays to keep the doors open and the lights on.  Nobody was buying stuff unless it was both New and Better than the old kit.  So they pushed the issue with 2 wound much better "Tactical Marines" i.e. Intercessors with 200% of the wounds, better guns, etc for only 125% of the points. 

[ValourousHeart]

46 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Nice sweeping statement to imply everyone who disagrees with you is stupid.   How many people do you know that buy another Tac Squad Kit after they already have six because they say they love Tac Squads on the forum but never buy any at the register? 

 

You inferred my statement to mean stupid, but I never implied that.  I stated that they were short sighted... and nobody has refuted that yett.

 

This is the internet, everything sticks around forever.  So if you want to look at the way back machine and find all of the post where people where predicting that old school marines were going away for years before GW stopped production on them.  Well that is what we call a self fulfilling prophecy.  GW had no intention of dropping those old kits from production, but the community decided to start this pervasive rumor that GW would drop them.  New people in the hobby took advice from the veteran players and didn't buy the older kits.

 

But sure it is the fault of the players with 6 tactical squads, not buying more for why tactical squads are still available on GW's website.  You should have picked an example of a unit that was actually discontinued.

 

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

Pose is not the sum total of "options".   Options have zero to do with Ebay Scalpers.  Ebay Scalpers have nothing to do with GW plans vis-a-vis Kit releases.   Ebay Scalpers are also a convenient boogey man, when most of the Ebay sellers appear to be people runing a home-based miniature store and/or a brick and mortar store doing business over ebay - which you can figure out by looking at the Deathwing Assault Box.  Its sold out on the GW website but it's listed for $220 and can be found on Ebay for $215-$220 pretty easily.   Brick And Mortar store trying to move overstock or truly stupid Scalper selling for less than they paid for a limited release, even though "people are supporting them by buying stuff". 

 

You must have not read my comment very closely before you replied.  I never said that unit options had anything to do with ebay scalpers.  I was providing a list of examples where what people say doesn't match with how they behave.

 

People say that they like the customization of 40k models.  Yet most players in the hobby when Dark Vengeance was released bought tons of those 3 push fit bikes to bulk up their RW because they were cheap on ebay.  Their actions contradict their words.

 

Same goes with how the community feels about scalpers.  They complain that GW doesn't do anything effective to stop scalpers.  But then they also buy products from scalpers.  Again contradicting themselves.

 

I'm not talking about resellers or brick and mortar stores.  Scalpers and GW have been a topic of discussion recently in relation to the signed copies of one of the latest books, end and the death.  Were you not aware of that controversy?

 

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

People not doing what they already didn't do isn't a boycott.  A few people screaming into the void that is the internet isn't organized.  There is no boycott just like there was no clamor for a new line of Marines that would take forever to replace existing units over the course of a decade or longer.   The swap from Firstborn to Primaris was entirely conceived and implemented by GW without our input.

 

Well we either disagree on this topic, or we aren't considering the same things.  All through 8th the older kits moved at a similar rate as in 7th edition, in spite of primaris sales.  But in 9th the sale of older kits took a steep decline, which would indicate that the rumor mill about GW discontinuing those kits finally hit critical mass.  GW has had a standing policy for years that the age of the kit was irrelevant as long as it was still selling.  New kits and old would hit the chopping block if sales dried up.  So we told GW to stop making those kits when we stopped buying them.

 

And then we have the CHS legacy.  Any kit not in production can't be in the codex.

 

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

On the flip side, they do listen to us, even when we aren't being careful what we wish for.  People railing against "bloat" (which was usually code for "The Factions I don't like have rules I don't like") have gotten us the shallow game we have this edition and nobody got their fun rules.   While I enjoy watching some of them start complaining "I didn't mean MY fun rules", its not how it works when GW listens to us usually. 

 

"Bloat" is just code for "I didn't actually read the rules."  In 8th and 9th, if the person had read the rules and stratagems before hand when they were drafting their list, and not done that at the last possible moment when they are wasting their opponent's only free afternoon this week, they would have discovered that their list only really had 5-6 stratagems that made sense to use.

 

This whole thing is cyclical.  We are essentially in 3rd edition again.  Boring, flavorless armies, and streamlined rules to attract new players and their money to the hobby.

 

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

My final response if to point out threatening your customers if they don't buy more of the unit they don't need because they already have a Ro3 covered isn't how you sell the kits and GW knows it, its why they redesign the kits every so often adding bits, changing size and such.   The easiest deduction from Primaris is they reached a critical mass on their biggest selling model line that pays to keep the doors open and the lights on.  Nobody was buying stuff unless it was both New and Better than the old kit.  So they pushed the issue with 2 wound much better "Tactical Marines" i.e. Intercessors with 200% of the wounds, better guns, etc for only 125% of the points. 

 

Nobody is threatening anyone.  This is business.  It is rational, it has to make sense mathematically.   And tactical marines still being for sale proves that.  They are still around because people buy them.  Land Speeders are no longer around because, despite the fact that people started to realize how good they were, not enough people were buying them.

 

And there it is... so you are part of that small echo chamber of meta chasing tournament players.  You are aware that the majority of players don't use tournament results to plan their warhammer purchases?

[NTaW]

21 hours ago, ValourousHeart said:

That isn't accurate.

 

Nor was it particularly meant to be, hence the laughing emote.

 

On 2/17/2024 at 12:08 AM, Tacitus said:

The problem with DW+RW is another problem with the book they totally dropped the ball on - there should be a Det for Just Deathwing and Ravenwing together using the White Scars/Lightning whatchamacallit Det as a guide.

 

I forget sometimes still that Detachments are one-per-army. I guess more of my playing experience still comes from pre-8th edition. At least with abilities baked into the datasheets you don't lose out on everything when taking DW in a RW Detachment, though I'm not sure there's much sense in taking RW in the DW attachment.

[Dusktiger]

=][= Let's not skew this thread off topic with cyclical arguments over how GW does or doesn't run their business model. Or by starting to take jabs at each other to try and get some zinger in at the end of a point being made that has nothing to do with the opening post of this thread.  =][=

[Lion El Jason]

Thanks Mr. Mod, but I expect we're done anyway.  There simply isn't enough positivity for this book.  We're back at the bottom and have the worst 40k codex since 4th edition.

But the models are nice.