The 'updated' Codex Astartes

[Valkyrion]

I've gone backwards in time since 7th edition, so with regards to being as official as we can, which is it per standard battle company; 

20 x 5 man squads 

10 x 10 man squads but 10 man ideal squad size

10 x squads, but some will only be 3 man or 5 man but the 10 squad limit is not exceeded.

20 x squads, be they 3 man, 5 man or 10 man but cannot number more than 100 in total

20 x squad, be they 3 man, 5 man or 10 man but CAN number over and above the 100 nominal limit.

Something else I've not considered.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

[Blindhamster]

Yes

[ThaneOfTas]

My read on it is basically;

 

10+ squads ranging in size of 3,5,6 or 10 with a nominal total strength of 100.

 

as an aside, i cant help but think that GW should have made it so that when Bobby G updated the codex, he made it operate on a base 12 rather than base 10 system. granted, that would cause issues for my firstborn marines but at least i would be able to organise the new 3 man squads cleanly into a company order of battle.

 

well, that or they could have just kept 5 as the minimum squad size.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

I think the point of the looser rules is that there isn't really a standard any more, although the old "six Battleline squads, two Close Support squads, and two Fire Support squads" is still a guideline that a lot of chapters will shoot for with their battle companies. It may be more of a ratio than a hard squad number given all the three-man minimum and six-man maximum squads that are available now.

 

Just as an example of the fluidity of the new rules, the first 8th edition Marines codex showed a full breakdown for the Ultramarines Second Company, probably the poster boy for "codex-compliant" battle companies, and it was very "interpretive" about the company structure:

 

1) 1st Squad was a ten-man Tactical squad, led by a Veteran Sergant.

2) 2nd Squad was a ten-man Tactical squad.

3) 3rd Squad was a five-man Intercessor squad.

4) 4th Squad was a five-man Intercessor squad.

5) 5th Squad was a ten-man Tactical squad.

6) 6th Squad was a ten-man Tactical squad, also led by a Veteran Sergeant.

 

So six Battleline squads, as prescribed by the codex, but only fifty Marines.

 

7) 7th squad was a ten-man Assault squad.

8) 8th squad was a three-man Inceptor squad.

 

9) 9th squad was a ten-man Devastator squad.

10) 10th squad was a five-man Hellblaster squad.

 

11) 11th squad is another five-man Intercessor squad, described as "originally" from the 6th company and not as a reserve squad temporarily attached to 2nd (see below). So all combined, we have eleven formal squads in 2nd Company at this point, consisting of a total of 83 Marines.

 

Plus two Dreadnoughts that are listed along with the rank and file, so apparently a roster of 85 marines, not counting the command staff.

 

Oh, but wait... there's also a 12th squad, which IS described as specifically being attached to Second rather than apparently being incorporated the way 11th squad was. This squad would still keep them under the 100-Marine limit, but either way it consisted of another full ten-man Assault squad.

 

So all together, 2nd had:

 

Seven Battleline squads, consisting of 55 battle-brothers.

Two Close Support squads, consisting of 13 battle-brothers, but with an attached reserve Assault squad of ten more battle-brothers.

Two Fire Support squads, consisting of 15 battle-brothers.

Two Dreadnoughts who really just want to belong.

 

I don't believe there's been a more detailed breakdown since, but also this reference is almost seven years old at this point. It's possible they're just waiting for the remainder of the Firstborn units to be yeeted, but I'm not holding my breath for a more locked-down Battle Company lineup as long as we still have all of these three-man Primaris squads.

 

Edited January 23 by Lord Nord in Gravis Armour
Confused myself.

[MegaVolt87]

An old debate for loyalist chapters. End result is a chapter would be at least 1250 strong because it doesn't make sense to count permanent vehicle crew to the limit. You are not cutting a tac squad to 8 guys because 2 are driving the rhino. A tac squad is actually 12 guys because the 2 extra guys drive the rhino assigned to the tac squad for example. 

[AutumnEffect]

One thing to keep in mind with the organization chart is casualties.

 

Starting our games with five or ten man squads every time would be the rarity rather than the norm in-universe. Companies and squads would almost never be at full, optimal strength because of casualties, be they deaths or injuries. There would be oddities like squads of 7 Tacticals or 4 Veterans.

 

As far as I know, Space Wolves are the only chapter that has a quirk where squads are never reinforced, broken up or combined. For everyone else I imagine squad structure within the company would be fairly fluid.

 

For this reason I wouldn't overthink the cap of 1,000 marines and where vehicle crew and such fit into it as a normal chapter would never be at a full compliment of battle brothers. They would be shuffled about as and when needed.

Edited January 23 by AutumnEffect

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, MegaVolt87 said:

An old debate for loyalist chapters. End result is a chapter would be at least 1250 strong because it doesn't make sense to count permanent vehicle crew to the limit. You are not cutting a tac squad to 8 guys because 2 are driving the rhino. A tac squad is actually 12 guys because the 2 extra guys drive the rhino assigned to the tac squad for example. 

Vehicle Crew aren't permanent: they are or were seconded from the Reserve Companies. 

[MegaVolt87]

6 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Vehicle Crew aren't permanent: they are or were seconded from the Reserve Companies. 

 

Maybe, but it's an easy manpower sink to have permanent vehicle crews. Not to mention you can hit training and casualties disruption with 250 SM float when you need most of the vehicles out for extended periods. The 1k hard cap just is not practical. The float is also easy to cover up, not hard to cook the books, a lot of chapters are also rarely in the same place at once, demi company, re-enforced companies are a thing etc. Or the float errodes to 1100 as an example, chapters fluctuate wildly in numbers over time as well. Slow investigations, say by the time I get investigated, my chapter has been 900 guys for the last 50 years because I am stuck in a Tyranid splinter fleet, case closed. 

 

Edit- not to mention primaries reinforcement pushed many firstborn chapters over 1k marines, primaries recruitment being effective allowing for easier numbers, this creating a float for blended chapters. It's also implied pure primaries chapters can maintain good numbers, which means a manpower float situation anyway. 

Edited January 23 by MegaVolt87

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

It seems like a lot of the changes were a means of getting around that 1000-Marine limit, in some cases less obvious and in other cases just putting it right out in the open. Let's not forget that Guilliman himself created an 11th Company for the Ultramarines and promoted a Primaris officer to Captain of that company without even bothering to inform the Chapter Master about it. And the lore sections of the various codex and supplement editions have contained a plethora of exceptions to anything resembling official chapter/company structure. It seems that the greatest utility of the revised codex is that it can be used to justify pretty much anything, while still preaching adherence to the spirit of the restructuring from legions into chapters.

[Felix Antipodes]

My reading of Chapter numbers over the years is of approximately 1000, not exactly this, but that might just be headcanon on my part .  I do note that Guilliman stated part of the reason that he did the rewrite of the Codex was because people were taking it as unchangeable holy writ and not the flexible guide he intended.

 

Either way, the codex rewrite allows all sort of justification for running whatever squad/company/Chapter numbers you like and blame it on Guilliman.

[AutumnEffect]

I tend to think that the 1,000 marines was never meant to be interpreted as a 'hard cap'. There are several chapters with more than ten companies or ostensibly 1,000 marines; Black Templars, Space Wolves, Exorcists, but they have never come under investigation for it.

 

There is a proscription against 'Legion Building' which is what put the Astral Claws beyond reproach during the Badab War. Legion Building is one of those nebulous terms that might be hard to define but which we all probably know what it means.

Anyway, that seems to be the real source of any investigation or censure - flouting the intention of the Codex in dissolving the strength of the Legions.

Edited January 24 by AutumnEffect

[redmapa]

Quote

Black Templars, Space Wolves, Exorcists, but they have never come under investigation for it.

 

Templars were being investigated by the High Lords as of their 4th ed codex, in it an adept recounted all known crusades and concluded the chapter was beyond 1000 marines and sent the report to the high Lords for further  action and iirc this was sorta followed in a DA codex where the inquisition was investigating the ophidium gulf incident and was also going to look into both chapters, so while it's nebulous and rarely enforced the 1000 marine is a law and hard limit but even the Astral Claws who built a legion within the Imperium where only brought down for not paying taxes and not for 5000 marines.

[AutumnEffect]

11 minutes ago, redmapa said:

 

Templars were being investigated by the High Lords as of their 4th ed codex, in it an adept recounted all known crusades and concluded the chapter was beyond 1000 marines and sent the report to the high Lords for further  action and iirc this was sorta followed in a DA codex where the inquisition was investigating the ophidium gulf incident and was also going to look into both chapters, so while it's nebulous and rarely enforced the 1000 marine is a law and hard limit but even the Astral Claws who built a legion within the Imperium where only brought down for not paying taxes and not for 5000 marines.

 

Oh, fair enough. I stand corrected on that count.

 

However, I would point out that not paying their tithe brought the attention of the Inqusition, but, at least according to the Badab War Forge World books, it was the charge of legion building that made them Excommunicate Traitoris . To quote the The Badab War Part I

" (sic) While largely unsuccessful, thanks to the use of its un-submitted gene-seed, the Astral Claws Chapter now stood at around an estimated three and a half thousand battle-brothers strong. 

In the face of this wanton heresy and deceit, and invoking full emergency authority, Inquisitor-Legate Jarndyce Frain condemned the entire Astral Claws Chapter as Excommunicate Traitoris under sentence of death, and placed their allies under official suspicion of heresy and treasonous contravention of Imperial High Law (as no immediate evidence existed that they also partook of Huron’s sin). This fact fundamentally altered the nature of the conflict and a pall of secrecy descended over the war."

[Valkyrion]

Cheers, its all as clear as mud!

I have another follow up question; the 6th and 7th company used to be used for bikes and land speeders, but now it seems to be the exclusive domain of battleline squads - any reason for this?

[FashaTheDog]

On 1/24/2024 at 6:05 AM, AutumnEffect said:

 

However, I would point out that not paying their tithe brought the attention of the Inqusition, but, at least according to the Badab War Forge World books, it was the charge of legion building that made them Excommunicate Traitoris .

 

Always amusing in light of how the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels pretty much orders the successor Chapters as though they were all part of a Legion.  I mean they cannot be a Legion in all but name because the Unforgiven Chapters assure everyone they are Codex compliant and while you are taking their word for it please do not look at their first and second companies too much, thank you very much.

[MoriyaSchism]

On 1/24/2024 at 7:02 AM, AutumnEffect said:

I tend to think that the 1,000 marines was never meant to be interpreted as a 'hard cap'. There are several chapters with more than ten companies or ostensibly 1,000 marines; Black Templars, Space Wolves, Exorcists, but they have never come under investigation for it.

In the case of the Exorcists they were founded on order from the Ordo Malleus if we go by the original Index Astartes and Third War For Armageddon fluff. I assume they would be protected by the Inquisition and the Inquisitorial Representative on the Senatorum Imperialis. The evidence that points to Exorcists in particular having direct protection from the Inquisition is that the records of their creation and Gene-seed origin were classified by the Ordo Malleus.

 

I don't want to hear any of this "Plutonian" nonsense about "radical sects" because if we see how radicals often end up in the Imperium this chapter would eventually get investigated and wouldn't survive for 5000 years.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I’ve always interpreted it as a Battle Company still being 10 Squads of 10

Astartes, with 6 being Battleline, 2 being  Close Support, and 2 being Fire Support. 
When you have the smaller squad sizes for Eliminators etc, that it will be instead that the 10-man squad is split into 3 squads of 3 Eliminators, for example, and that two of those “Sergeants” are temporary Squad Leaders, and the 10th member operating a Warsuit. They’re still all 9th Squad of Second Company, just temporarily split up. 

[Helias_Tancred]

Being Black Templars has its advantages ;)  ... carry on lol. 

[Paladin777]

I do the updated ‘20 squads of 5,’ though squads that come in multiples of six are done as a squad of 6 instead of five. 
 

that said, I think my 3rd company project is on a sort of light hiatus for the moment. I’m still doing hobby stuff, but I’m working on other aspects like characters, veteran units, and land raiders. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

But if you do them as actual full squads of 6 with a Sergeant each, you run into problems when deploying as other unit types. 
The strength of the Primaris is their flexibility, a Fire Support squad can deploy as Hellblasters in one battle, Eliminators the next, and Aggressors after that. 
For that to work, it makes the most sense to be 10-man squads that will split as required into combat squads, able to deploy either as a 10-man Hellblaster squad, or 3 3-man Eliminators with 1 driving an Impulsor, or whatever deployment may be required. 

[MegaVolt87]

A lot of people seem to also forget, when RG wrote the codex he clearly did not account for the technological decline of the SM. 2nd founding chapters were arguably at the peak of their strength. Common legion equipment became uncommon, uncommon equipment became rare and rare legion equipment hit relic status. Common thread- legion era equipment still existed in great quantity. Also the first legion tech to be lost was phosphex I believe and the abolition of legion destroyers. An ad mech magos found the phosphex STC in 40k but destroyed it. HH era chapters were largely like proto codex chapters, because it was more efficient to highly mechanize them and cut the manpower. A modern firstborn battle company is far less potent than they were post scouring due to technological decline. Thats supposed to be what makes some non corrupted CSM so dangerous, low manpower but retaining the legion tech advantage that makes up for that. 

Edited February 5 by MegaVolt87

[Paladin777]

10 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

But if you do them as actual full squads of 6 with a Sergeant each, you run into problems when deploying as other unit types. 
The strength of the Primaris is their flexibility, a Fire Support squad can deploy as Hellblasters in one battle, Eliminators the next, and Aggressors after that. 
For that to work, it makes the most sense to be 10-man squads that will split as required into combat squads, able to deploy either as a 10-man Hellblaster squad, or 3 3-man Eliminators with 1 driving an Impulsor, or whatever deployment may be required. 

Perhaps, but due to the fact that my army is a tabletop army and not an actual army my squad three will never be anything other than 5 intercessors. So it’s kind of a moot point for me. 

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

Perhaps, but due to the fact that my army is a tabletop army and not an actual army my squad three will never be anything other than 5 intercessors. So it’s kind of a moot point for me. 

They're talking fluff not exactly tabletop - I got it as more of a "If I dropped an entire company straight from the book on the table top, what would it look like?". 

[Paladin777]

Fair enough. I’ve got a Whole Company project I’m working on, so I needed to draw the line somewhere. 

[Mr. Oddity]

I'm also working on a full company project right now, and came up with an arrangement of exactly 100 Marines across 16 "fixed" squads that still maintains the 60/20/20 split. This also allows for combat squads for my Battleline to be a thing since those are ad-hoc rather than fixed organizational splits.

• Battleline
  • 3 x 10 Intercessors
  • 3 x 10 Heavy Intercessors
• Close Support
  • 1 x 10 Incursors
  • Invictor Warsuit pilot
  • 3 x 3 Inceptors
• Fire Support
  • 1 x 5 Desolation Marines
  • 2 x 3 Suppressors
  • 2 x 3 Aggressors
  • 1 x 3 Eradicators

This of course doesn't account for leadership or attached veterans / units seconded from the reserve companies, but feels like a solid baseline of units that covers a lot of combat needs. When you bring in the alternate roles for each category as well there's a lot of leeway for substitution. In general, I feel like as long as you maintain a maximum of 20 squads / 100 Marines in "permanent" deployment you're still within Codex compliance even if it isn't a perfect 60/20/20 split. Hope this is helpful!