Orks in Legions Imperialis

[apologist]

Hi all,

 

As I've started active development, I thought I'd split the orks off from the broader Xenos thread. Let me know your thoughts – and if you get the chance to playtest them, feedback would be much appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

Off the top of my head:

 

Snakebites:

These guys are conservative orks which means they would prefer hacking foes to pieces rather than shoot them. Therefore I would suggest equipping them with pistol & ccw rather than a rifle.

 

Grots:

Their guns hit on 4+? As the game doesn´t have a to wound step this is pretty deadly but the weapon itself is obviously the worst in the whole 40K environment. As a consequence I would suggest giving it a 6+. This would mean recalculating their points cost as well.

 

Nobs:

Their ccws have the Rend trait. As they don´t use power weapons for cc I would advise to remove the Rend trait. The SA Veletaris in comparison use double-handed power axes which would be vastly more effective than big choppas. 

[apologist]

21 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

Off the top of my head:

 

Snakebites:

These guys are conservative orks which means they would prefer hacking foes to pieces rather than shoot them. Therefore I would suggest equipping them with pistol & ccw rather than a rifle.

 

Grots:

Their guns hit on 4+? As the game doesn´t have a to wound step this is pretty deadly but the weapon itself is obviously the worst in the whole 40K environment. As a consequence I would suggest giving it a 6+. This would mean recalculating their points cost as well.

 

Nobs:

Their ccws have the Rend trait. As they don´t use power weapons for cc I would advise to remove the Rend trait. The SA Veletaris in comparison use double-handed power axes which would be vastly more effective than big choppas. 

 

Thanks for the feedback. On the Snakebites (as with the other clans), I've imported the values pretty much straight from SM2. There, the distinction between their rifles (boltguns, at the time) and the Goffs' close-in weapons was more marked. I ummed and erred about whether to give Snakebites sluggas and choppas, but for the moment left them with the shoota. It's ever so slightly better for them, which helps to balance the Goffs' better CAF.

 

Grots – yes, you're quite right. This was another value to reflect them being better shots than orks, but I forgot to take into account the low strength. I've popped it to 5+, on the basis that 6+ at such short range would effectively be rolling dice for very little reason, and it also allows you to do quick rolling alongside the boyz.

 

Nobs – this is a tougher one. The CAF and Rend trait are intended to reflect the various armaments available to Nobs in the lore and in 40k, from standard choppas at higher strength and attacks, to power klaws. Nobs are so important to the ork battleplan, and close combat is their strength, so I do want to make sure that they've got some proper punch.

Edited January 26 by apologist

[apologist]

With the infantry Detachments in place, I wanted to start hashing out the the Formations – the notes below are musings, and I'd very much like your input.

 

General concepts

• In comparison with Legions Astartes and Solar Auxilia, Ork Formations should be large and unwieldy.
• The point above should not be taken to the point that playing as Orks becomes frustrating
• Using the 2nd ed Epic: Space Marine (SM2) cards for inspiration is a good place to start, but don't get wedded to the specifics
• Formation special rules should highlight the Orky character, but not force the player into one-dimensional stereotypes for each clan
• Every decision should serve the fun of the game for all players.

A starting point

Let's start by looking at the Space Marine Company Cards (the equivalent of the Compulsory Detachments of a Formation in LI). Translating this into LI terms, these Company Cards for a Space Marine Battle Company and a Space Marine Tactical Company represents the Compulsory Detachments of the Legio Demi-Company fairly closely. 

  

 

You've got an HQ Detachment (a single stand) and three Core/Support Detachments in each, plus Transport. Each of those Detachments is six stands strong, rather than the four we have in LI – but of course we can expand those with Upgrades in LI.

 

The takeaway is that the Space Marine Company cards are pretty similar to LI Formations, so I think working things out in those terms is a fairly good place to start. (For later reference, an Imperial Guard Tactical Company card was 30 infantry stands and 1 HQ stands).

 

Turning now to orks, the Deathskull Clan are the nearest thing to a 'basic' ork clan, as they're very middle of the road in terms of their composition, and their special rules revolve around being able to use Support Cards – an SM2 mechanic similar to LI's Optional Detachments – rather than altering the composition.

 

 

Ignoring the transports, both Space Marines and Orks have nineteen infantry stands. In my initial draft, Ork mobs start at Detachment size 6 (rather than the Marines' 4) and Nobz at Detachment size 2, so the card above would equate to two Nobz Detachments and two Ork Boyz Detachments, plus a single Boyz expansion (+3 stands).

 

 

First draft

That sounds about right to me... but having two HQ and two Core seems odd. We could adapt the Detachments as they stand in the list. Nobz could become HQ Detachments of 4-strong; while Boyz become 5-strong Core Detachments. That would then neatly be four Compulsory Detachments: 1 HQ and 3 Core. That's neater, making Nobz into a proper HQ, and also means that Nobz don't need to take a Morale check early on. 

 

You'd end up with a slightly larger minimum-sized Formation than the Space Marine equivalent – 19 infantry stands for the Orks vs 13 for the Marines, but that doesn't seem particularly problematic. If anything, that leans into the general concepts listed above well.

 

 

Problems

The first problem with Option 1 is that the Warboss/Warlord now doesn't fit in very neatly – although that's easily fixed by having an Optional HQ Detachment. 

 

The second problem is that odd numbers of Ork stands doesn't seem to work very well for transports. Battlewagons are currently Transport (3), so you'd end up with five... Is that a problem? Well, sort of.

 

Changing Nobz to HQ of 4 stands and Boyz to Core of 5 stands works for Deathskulls, but rolling it out to the other Clans might cause some issues. Let's see.

 

  

Bad Moons are nice and simple; no different to Deathskulls; and likewise Snakebites are the same, except with additional Boarboyz, which can be resolved by adding a Core Detachment for them in the clan appropriate Formation.

 

Goffs likewise are much the same, except having twice the amount of Nobz – neat, we can simply have two Compulsory Detachments of four Nobz in this clan Formation.

 

... but then we run into snags:

 

 

Evil Suns pose some problems. The Boyz work surprisingly well – essentially having a Transport Detachment of 5 Battlewagons added as another Compulsory, but the Nobz are a problem if the Detachment size goes up to 4.

 

The Blood Axes are still more awkward, as they used Rhinos (Transport 2) rather than proppa Battlewagons. This is a thorny problem – while very fitting in the previous edition, these days I'd rather Rhinos were an option, rather than compulsory. For the moment, I'll shelve this (but happy to hear any ideas!) 

 

Solution

Coming back to the matter in hand, I think the best move is to change the default Detachment sizes for Nobz from 2 to 3, and make them an Compulsory HQ Choice. This will resolve the Evil Sunz problem, and also neatly fits into the translation from SM2 to LI: just as the Tactical Company at the start of the discussion (remember that?) translates to a Core Detachment with an Upgrade, the same would be true for Nobz in the other Clans.

 

The various Clans then all work, with the outliers being resolved without recourse to special rules: Evil Suns fit into their Battlewagon; and Goffs can simply have two Compulsory HQ Detachments.

 

A nice side effect is that it also makes Nobz more resilient to Morale tests – currently a single stand will force a check, but at 3-strong, you'll need to wipe out more than half, and it's only one stand that will be affected. 

 

On the boyz, we have options:

Option 1:  Change the default Detachment size for Boyz from 6 to 5 and have 3 Compulsory Core Detachments in each Clan Formation. Works for everyone but Blood Axes, and has a nice round feel to it – you can imagine orks counting on their fingers! It does potentially cause some problems with transport sizes.

 

Option 2: Change the default Detachment size from 6 to 4 and have 3 Compulsory Core Detachments in each Clan Formation. Works for everyone (even Blood Axes), but again causes some awkwardness with the Transport (3) nature of the Battlewagon. Also means that there's a lot to track in terms of Morale, and feels 'Bitty'.

 

Option 3: Leave the Detachment size at 6 and have just 2 Compulsory Core Detachments in each Clan Formation. (Assume the 'spare' boyz are upgrades, as for the Space Marines above.)

 

 

I'm leaning towards option 3 for simplicity, but keen to hear your ideas.

 

 

TL;DR – Ork clan detachments first draft for feedback

The following are rough drafts based on the Company Cards from Epic: Space Marine 2nd edition. 

 

Bad Moons

• Compulsory Detachments
  • One HQ – e.g. One Nobz Detachments (3 Models)
  • Two Core – e.g. Two Boyz Detachments (6 Models each)
• Optional Detachments
  • Two HQ
  • Three Core
  • [TBD]
• For this clan, Compulsory Detachments must be Nobz (HQ) and Bad Moons Boyz (Core)

Exclusive: None?

More access to: Weirdboy tower? Weirdboyz? Gretchin?

 

Deathskulls

• Compulsory Detachments
  • One HQ – e.g. One Nobz Detachments (3 Models)
  • Two Core – e.g. Two Boyz Detachments (6 Models each)
• Optional Detachments
  • Two HQ
  • Three Core
  • [TBD]
• For this clan, Compulsory Detachments must be Nobz (HQ) and Deathskulls Boyz (Core)

N.B. Optional Detachments should include option for one other Clan-specific Detachment. Consider phrasing.

Exclusive: None?

More access to: Lootas?

 

 

Snakebites

• Compulsory Detachments
  • One HQ – One Nobz Detachments (3 Models)
  • Two Core – Two Boyz Detachments (6 Models each)
  • One Vanguard – Snortas Mob Detachment (3 Models)
• Optional Detachments
  • Two HQ
  • Two Core
  • [TBD]
• For this clan, Compulsory Detachments must be Nobz (HQ) Snakebites Boyz (Core) and Snortas (Vanguard)

N.B. Exclusive: Squiggoths

More access to Snortas/Squighog; Gretchin?

 

Goffs

• Compulsory Detachments
  • Two HQ – e.g. Two Nobz Detachments (3 Models each)
  • Three Core – e.g. Two Boyz Detachments (6 Models each)
• Optional Detachments
  • Two HQ
  • Two Core
  • [TBD]
• For this clan, Compulsory Detachments must be Nobz (HQ) and Goff Boyz (Core)

N.B. Goffs have to have more Nobz, and have the option to max out at more overall than other Clans.

Exclusive: Lungburstas? Or simply easier access?

More access to Stormboyz? Skarboyz?

 

Blood Axes

• Compulsory Detachments
  • One HQ – One Nobz Detachments (3 Models)
  • Two Core – Two Boyz Detachments (6 Models each)
• Optional Detachments
  • Two HQ
  • Two Core
  • [Looted vehicles?]
  • [TBD]
• For this clan, Compulsory Detachments must be Nobz (HQ) and Blood Axe Boyz (Core)

(Brainstorm Transport/looted vehicles.)

Exclusive: Rhinos/ Chimeras? Imperial stuff. 

More access to Kommandos? Stormboyz?

 

Evil Suns

• Compulsory Detachments
  • One HQ – e.g. One Nobz Detachments (3 Models)
  • Three Core – e.g. Two Boyz Detachments (6 Models each)
• Optional Detachments
  • Two HQ
  • Two Core
  • Four Transport
  • [TBD]
• For this clan, Compulsory Detachments must be Nobz (HQ) and Evil Suns Boyz (Core)

N.B. Dedicated Transport compulsory (check wording for Rhinos and rephrase here). Ensure sufficient Optional Transport Detachments to transport the number of infantry possible. 

Exclusive: Bowelburna? Gobsmasha? Spleenrippa? Or simply easier access?

More access to: 

 

 

[apologist]

... and following on from these notes, here's the ork armour.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[apologist]

Part 2

 

 

 

 

 

 

These are a little harder to translate across than the infantry – and it's also worth noting that I've tried to allow both for SM2-era specific ork vehicles (e.g. Lungbursta, Spleen Rippa etc.) types alongside more generic/kustomisable Epic: 40,000/Armageddon-era vehicles. I'd be interested in your gut reactions as well as any specifics tweaks, ideas or thoughts.

[Indy Techwisp]

IMO, to keep the "original" feel of the Ork detachments intact, but not make it an issue for Blood Axes loosing their non-Ork transports entirely, you could have them start with Ork transports in the detachment by default, probably a Battlewagon like the Evil Suns have, and then have the option to "Upgrade all Battlewagons to Rhinos for X points".

 

That said, maybe the Evil Suns should have a faster transport instead? They are the "Kult of Speed" Clan after all...

 

Also Re: "exclusive access".

IMO all Ork stuff should be available to the whole Waaagh!, but stuff like Looted Imperium stuff probably should be restricted in some manner, lest Orks just end up as Solar Auxilia 2 Fungi Boogaloo by spamming Looted Leman Russes.

Blood Axes being able to start with it would make thematic sense, but after that I feel it should be an upgrade of some kind.

Like "every X [Insert Ork Tank here] may be upgraded to a Looted Leman Russ for Y points" or something.

 

Alternatively, if diverging from the original detachments significantly is to be considered, rather than starting with Rhinos the Blood Moons can bring in a couple stands of Kommandos in the base detachment using the same system Solar Auxilia use to drag in the specialised infantry.

 

 

Regarding the treatment of Grots in this.

Grot Vehicles are usually treated better than Grots themselves, so maybe Grot Tanks and Grot Megatanks are a step higher on the totem pole than other Grots (Killa Kanz should also be at this level is you've got rules for them).

 

Last Edit:

I note there's not a Trukk.

Aren't Trukks the de-facto Transports for orks?

Edited February 2 by Indy Techwisp
another option added (edit 2 to add an entirely different point) (edit 3 now)

[Scealfada]

I'm not sure I agree with @Indy Techwisp on their exclusive access stance. At the moment Orks have more tank options than SA. Allowing only one tank as an upgrade(if you even allow any) in a tank detachment outside of Blood Axes seems sensible. More, and SA uniqueness becomes diluted.

 

 

 

For all other thematic detachments I think the difficulty in restricting or giving exclusive access to specific thematic detachments at the moment is that in SA and Legions, they are restricted by unit category(core, battle tank etc.) but Orks need to be restricted by specific unit (kommandos, weird boy tower etc).

 

I would suggest that those specialised detachments are tagged with their accompanying clan.

 

Then each clan formation may take general detachments, plus their own tag in the "optional detachments" categories. If a blood axe clan wants a weird boy tower however, that can only take that from "one of the following".

 

So for instance evil sunz might have 3 Vanguard slots in "optional", and one in "one of the following". But they can obit take Boar Boyz in that "one of the following" slot, because board Boyz have a snakebite tag.

 

I admit this is a little odd at first, but I think it smooths out some of the list building issues.

 

(Aside from all this I just wanted to say how happy I am to find a group actively developing 40k lists, and that the weirdboy tower weapon rules are :chefskiss: )

[apologist]

Work progresses on the orks for Legions Imperialis. This file is now functional for playtesting – would love to hear any further feedback.

BS Orks v7.pdf