How do Terminators look if they match BGV in PPM?

[Tacitus]

Right now I assume most people will stipulate that Terminators are Not-Good.  They're not bad, but they're not good enough to earn a slot for most people. 

 

Lets say the Point-Per-Model for Terminators drops to the same PPM as Blade Guard Veterans - Trade a point of MV for a Point of T,  2+ vs 3+ and more attachments and some offsetting Bespokes.

[Paladin777]

They might be a little undercosted at that point, but not by much. 

[Tacitus]

9 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

They might be a little undercosted at that point, but not by much. 

Yeah, its a little tough to balance the bespokes, but the difference between Terminator and BGV is much smaller this edition.  I'd start wtih them at the same and see what happens. 

[Orange Knight]

If they cost the same they'll be better. They should drop the points for both.

 

Thankfully the balance update is going up this week. Hopefully some good changes!

[Tokugawa]

Huge cost reduction for terminators? Why? If so, chaos terminators would flood the whole meta with 0cp reroll everything stratagem.

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Tokugawa said:

Huge cost reduction for terminators? Why? If so, chaos terminators would flood the whole meta with 0cp reroll everything stratagem.

 

So don't apply the same reduction to Chaos Termies due to their unique CP interaction?

 

It does become weird when the units are generally the same.

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Tokugawa said:

Huge cost reduction for terminators? Why? If so, chaos terminators would flood the whole meta with 0cp reroll everything stratagem.

That requires being led by a Terminator Captain?  I'm OK with it that far - but realistically there's nothing that says they should/shouldn't be priced differently being a different army with a different bespoke etc..

[Blindhamster]

no, terminators should be more

compared to bladeguard terminators have:

• -1 Mv
• +1 T
• significantly better guns
• better melee weapons
• better armour save (2+ vs 3+)
• native deep strike
• better ability

Terminators are fine at their cost IMO, but if you had to make them cheaper, I'd say not more than 1-2 point drop.

[Tacitus]

6 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

no, terminators should be more

compared to bladeguard terminators have:

• -1 Mv
• +1 T
• significantly better guns
• better melee weapons
• better armour save (2+ vs 3+)
• native deep strike
• better ability

Terminators are fine at their cost IMO, but if you had to make them cheaper, I'd say not more than 1-2 point drop.

You're still in previous editions where a veteran has X attacks no matter which weapon they use.  3 Power Fists are not necessarily better than 4 Power Swords are not necessarily better than 5 Chainsword attacks.   The difference between 2+/4++ and 3+/4++ is fairly small given the threat band of -2, D2 attacks you'll see vs Marines - Realistically anything worth using on them would already be putting them on the invuln. I'd even question the Storm bolter vs Heavy Bolt Pistol to be significant.   I'm REALLY going to question "better ability" when Bladeguard can reroll 1's but even more importantly reroll the 1 to Invulns.   And the potential leaders to both squads also is a factor.

 

The most obvious evidence of course is that BGV are more popular than Terminators because Terminators are just not popular.  Part of that is the mystifying decision by GW to not release the Terminator Assault Squad yet, but mostly based on their Points Per Power. 

[Karhedron]

BGVs also only take up one slot in Transports where Terminators need 2. Land Raiders are pretty good in 10th but Terminators take up a whole vehicle whereas BGVs leave space for a small squad like Sternguard or Company Heroes.

 

BGVs are 30ppm at the moment while Termies are 37ppm. I would say Termies are better than BGVs but not by that much. Maybe Termies should be around 33ppm which would make a squad 165 points.

Edited January 29 by Karhedron

[Orange Knight]

Terminators don't need a transport to be deployed across the battlefield. That's something else that needs to be considered.

 

Ultimately, I don't think either unit is setting the world on fire. I would be ok with a 1/2 point drop for both.

[Karhedron]

22 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Terminators don't need a transport to be deployed across the battlefield. That's something else that needs to be considered.

 

It depends what you want to use them for. If you want an Objective holder with some shooting then you can DS in. Realistically Termies are wasted if you are not using their melee abilities though and pulling off a 9" charge out of Deep Strike has only a 28% chance of going well (with rerolls harder to come by as well).

 

That has been the problem with Terminators as long as I can remember. GW have priced them for both their firepower and melee output but it is very hard to leverage both in the same turn (sometimes even in the same game).

[Blindhamster]

IMO, 34-35 is where they should sit.

[Dracos]

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

IMO, 34-35 is where they should sit.

Other stats aside, Deep Strike is so hard to put a price on. I’m totally onboard with Bladeguard being 4/5 points cheaper than Terminators for that alone. 
 

Man I worded that all kinds of weird. Lol
 

 

[Tacitus]

6 hours ago, Dracos said:

Other stats aside, Deep Strike is so hard to put a price on. I’m totally onboard with Bladeguard being 4/5 points cheaper than Terminators for that alone. 
 

Man I worded that all kinds of weird. Lol
 

 

I think you're overvaluing Deep Strike - even before we get to screeners like Infiltrators.  Its a one time shortcut, and while not bad, one time is a severe limiter - especially given the not within 9"/charge issues.  There is a possibility if Terminators get too cheap that it becomes common/viable to keep 2 units in Deep Strike until the last turn for quarters scoring etc.  But there are better ways to guard against that than overpricing Terminators. 

[Karhedron]

5 hours ago, Tacitus said:

There is a possibility if Terminators get too cheap that it becomes common/viable to keep 2 units in Deep Strike until the last turn for quarters scoring etc. 

 

I think the risk of that is minimal for a couple of reasons. Even if Termies came down to BGV prices, they would still be 150 points so 300 for 2 squads. 300 points is a lot of stuff to be not killing the enemy for several turns. Also continuous scoring means that you can't just drop in T4 or T5 and win the game. You have to be holding that Objective/Quarter at the start or each of your command phases to get the points. Keeping a Tactical reserve is handy but I think the natural balance of not killing or scoring while in reserve will always tend to limit its abuse.

 

Besides if you want cheap Deep Strikers you can already do that with Jump Pack Intercessors. For 85 points you can drop in T3 to snag an unguarded Objective etc. I don't see that happening much so I doubt people would do it with Terminators, even if they did come down in price.

[Tacitus]

26 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

I think the risk of that is minimal for a couple of reasons. Even if Termies came down to BGV prices, they would still be 150 points so 300 for 2 squads. 300 points is a lot of stuff to be not killing the enemy for several turns. Also continuous scoring means that you can't just drop in T4 or T5 and win the game. You have to be holding that Objective/Quarter at the start or each of your command phases to get the points. Keeping a Tactical reserve is handy but I think the natural balance of not killing or scoring while in reserve will always tend to limit its abuse.

 

Besides if you want cheap Deep Strikers you can already do that with Jump Pack Intercessors. For 85 points you can drop in T3 to snag an unguarded Objective etc. I don't see that happening much so I doubt people would do it with Terminators, even if they did come down in price.

Yeah I don't think BGV prices for Terminators get there and Jump Intercessors are one of the reasons I think Terminator Deep Strike is overrated as they deep strike AND move 12. 

[Sir Clausel]

I would rather like them to buff terminators statwise. Either by making their special rules better or giving them more damage like +1 attack or something like that. 

Bladeguards ability could also just be buffed instead of a points reduction. Make their rule work all the time and on both armor and invuls. Just drop the reroll 1s to hit.

[Tacitus]

6 minutes ago, Sir Clausel said:

I would rather like them to buff terminators statwise. Either by making their special rules better or giving them more damage like +1 attack or something like that. 

Bladeguards ability could also just be buffed instead of a points reduction. Make their rule work all the time and on both armor and invuls. Just drop the reroll 1s to hit.

Oh I don't think BGV need to be better Point Per Power necessarily.  They definitely shouldn't get worse, but they're currently probably about the bottom of Good.  I don't expect Terminators to be buffed because changes to datasheets are unlikely in the current design space - plus they're - performance wise - good, but too expensive for what you get. 

[Karhedron]

Yes, GW seem to be favouring points adjustments over changing rules. I can appreciate this as the MFM just gets a quarterly update while the codex itself remains valid. Terminators are a decent unit but overpriced for what they bring. BGVs have a clear role and maybe that makes them easier to price correctly. 

[Orange Knight]

That's typical of most Primaris units. A clear and defined purpose with strengths and limitations. 

 

Terminators are "jack of all trades" infantry. They have some shooting, some close combat, some decent durability, they can teleport in. All of that has to be considered even if it can't all be utilised.

 

I wish that Terminators had been re-designed when they got up-scaled. I don't mean changing their look - I think we all agree they look near perfect - but specifically their equipment. 

 

I'd have loved to see 5, all armed with Cyclone Missile Launchers/Assault Cannons, storm bolters and power swords.

 

Or a close combat variant that gets a bonus to charges, and is armed with power fists/Hammers.

Edited January 30 by Orange Knight

[Karhedron]

I think tat is why Assault Termintors have been favoured in most editions, they have a clear role and you can build around it. The fact that Storm Shields have generally been pretty good certainly helps.

[Tacitus]

19 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

That's typical of most Primaris units. A clear and defined purpose with strengths and limitations. 

 

Terminators are "jack of all trades" infantry. They have some shooting, some close combat, some decent durability, they can teleport in. All of that has to be considered even if it can't all be utilised.

 

I wish that Terminators had been re-designed when they got up-scaled. I don't mean changing their look - I think we all agree they look near perfect - but specifically their equipment. 

 

I'd have loved to see 5, all armed with Cyclone Missile Launchers/Assault Cannons, storm bolters and power swords.

 

Or a close combat variant that gets a bonus to charges, and is armed with power fists/Hammers.

If they were going that route, they would have squatted and scouted them - i.e. killed off the original datasheet, then replaced it with an entirely new datasheet - and I'd argue they're not Jack of All Trades.  The SB/PF load out falls short against MEQ due to fewer overpowered attacks - and the basic flaw in the S-T ratio that made it through game design ruling out most of the top end vehicles/monsters.  I do pretty much expect to see a new Terminator Assault Kit.  I expected to see it with the DA release, but maybe the BA release - and I'm not sure I like the idea of turning Terminators into Desolator-nators. 

[unrealchamp88]

The value of terminators has been on the decline ever since the start of 8th. The liberation of rules around moving, shooting, charging and with what weapons has changed that balance.

 

The old 'Relentless' rule that terminators had went hard. Deep Strike and shoot, then on the next turn, move, shoot and charge. Being able to do that is now normal, so the trick is how does one make terminators exceptional again?

[DemonGSides]

By either making them stronger (IE Desolator-nators) or change their role. Giving them speed is a non starter, so they need to fill up the rest of the 'viability triangle' (Fast, Strong, Tough).