So the new Balance Dataslate dropped and it is.......something

[domsto]

Hello Fellow Guard Players

 

So the new Balance Dataslate dropped on Warhammer Community with points updates and all.

After a overview of the Changes for Guard and the more general Changes i have to say i am super disappointed.

No real change to Guard, no meaningfull buff or points dicrease, instead we even got a points increase!

Yes i know they changed the Voice of Command ability to finally work as it should have been from Day 1, but this is a minimal change with no real impact on overall Guard Performance.

As GW itself said they focus this time on internal Balance but no change to the terrible internal Balance of the Guard Index has been made.

So long story short, Guard continue to struggle throw and we have to wait for the next Batch and hope for some fixes.....yeah

 

But what is your oppinon, am i to harsh?

Edited January 30 by domsto

[Cadian Bandstand]

Agree with you. Gaunts Ghosts are now even better, the silliness with an officer not being able to order their own troops whilst in transports has been sorted.

 

Overall my 2k list has now resulted in me having to downgrade my manticore to a basilisk. I think I'm generally in the same boat whilst I felt that I could do with an extra 60-100 points being dropped somewhere. I'm happy with our units and what they do, I feel that we just need a bit more on the board, oh and please please make the commissar do something, make their ability auto pass battle shock in return for sacrificing a model.

[Sergeant Bastone]

Wow, I can't believe we didn't get any points drops.  They think that the FOB and the commissar are worth the points??  And when are they going to fix the commissar's rule so it actually works?

[DemonGSides]

43 minutes ago, Sergeant Bastone said:

Wow, I can't believe we didn't get any points drops.  They think that the FOB and the commissar are worth the points??  And when are they going to fix the commissar's rule so it actually works?

 

Why doesn't it work?

[Sergeant Bastone]

You can only do it "at the beginning of any phase".  Which means that if you fail a battleshock test you can't BLAM someone to make that unit scoring again.  

[Strasgard]

Yeah overall a disappointment. I was really hoping for a change to our combined arms detachment rule. Encouraging our army to remain static isnt something we need.

 

Silver lining is perhaps Ursula + Kasrkins makes sense to sling around the board in a Taurox? 2 orders on disembark, plus 12” +D6” Taurox move with full disembark, move, and shoot gives them 24.5” average move & shoot? 
 

Taking +1 to hit and FRFSRF or extra OC if needed is quite nice on them!

[Emperor Ming]

Massive disappointment

 

Killed my enthusiasm for guard this ed stone dead atm

 

 

Infuriating that factions like custards, get a few rules tweaks and points reductions to boost them and guard get...

 

Bugger all and poor manticore

 

So we are staying at the bottom then for another six months.

 

Edited January 31 by Emperor Ming

[FashaTheDog]

No amount of suffering can ever expunge the sins of our ancestors; only through our deaths can we begin to seek propitiation.

 

If you have not yet guessed, I have run the Death Korps since the Siege of Vraks books were still fairly new, through good times and bad.  I have no qualms sending my morose resin toy soldiers off on a bayonet charge that ends in their quick and brutal end.  Any battle ending with only 90% casualties is a victory for the Emperor; even if only a shamelessly self proclaimed victory ignoring the facts of what actually transpired. 

 

As for this balance data slate I say, "this too shall pass".  Until then my Death Korps shall endeavor to die in even greater numbers to sate GW's the Emperor's anger and beg for expiation.

[Tokugawa]

From the optimistic vision, almost all the indirect tanks in the game get nerfed, manticore, PBC, spinner, exorcist, etc. It could be read as "Basilisk buffed".

[domsto]

Well my motivation for Guard and this Edition in general also got a big hit with this Balance Dataslate and the lack of any significant changes to Guard.

To be totaly honest i am sick of always waiting for the next Update to fix Guard, we waited the entirety of 9.Ed and now 10.Ed shapes up to be same story.

 

There are soo many Units in the Index which need either a points or Rule change.

Commissars

Cadian Castellans

Heavy Weapons Teams

Field Ordinance Batteries. (i mean they committed the cardinalsin of having a "indirect" weapon, so i think they are a lost cause)

Deathstrike

Rought Riders

Rogal Dorn

Tank Commander

All non Demolisher or Exterminator Leman Russ Variants

Hellhounds

Ogryns

Bullgryns

Hydra

 

But my main Problem is, while Guard got no changes, many other Factions got sweeping changes and buffs, Dark Eldar got catapulted into medium to high tier, Custodes got cheaper and a total Rule rework, Knights got cheaper accross the board.

So while we stayed the same many of the other Factions got buffed. Which in Turn means Guard performce even worst now again the stronger competition.

[jarms48]

Astra Militarum order change was nice, but it needs to be clarified:
- If Officers can now issue double orders a turn. For example: Issue order from transport to unit A in command phase, disembark from transport then order unit B in movement phase. 
- If an Officer can issue MMM from a transport in a command phase, move ordered unit, then disembark officer from transport and order unit again. As ordering the unit again replaces the initial order, but MMM was already carried out.
- Can an Officer issue an order after a vehicle is destroyed in the enemy turn? 
- Can an Officer issue an order after using rapid ingress in the enemy turn?

 

On 1/31/2024 at 3:29 PM, domsto said:

Well my motivation for Guard and this Edition in general also got a big hit with this Balance Dataslate and the lack of any significant changes to Guard.

To be totaly honest i am sick of always waiting for the next Update to fix Guard, we waited the entirety of 9.Ed and now 10.Ed shapes up to be same story.

 

There are soo many Units in the Index which need either a points or Rule change.

Commissars

Cadian Castellans

Heavy Weapons Teams

Field Ordinance Batteries. (i mean they committed the cardinalsin of having a "indirect" weapon, so i think they are a lost cause)

Deathstrike

Rough Riders

Rogal Dorn

Tank Commander

All non Demolisher or Exterminator Leman Russ Variants

Hellhounds

Ogryns

Bullgryns

Hydra

 

But my main Problem is, while Guard got no changes, many other Factions got sweeping changes and buffs, Dark Eldar got catapulted into medium to high tier, Custodes got cheaper and a total Rule rework, Knights got cheaper accross the board.

So while we stayed the same many of the other Factions got buffed. Which in Turn means Guard performce even worst now again the stronger competition.

 

This is pretty accurate. I agree with all of these. Few other things:

- FW tanks also need some decent point drops. 

- Regimental Preacher could use a points drop. 

- Commissar and Regimental Preacher should be able to join ab-human units. Preachers and Commissars would work quite well with Ogryns/Bullgryns.

- Flyers need some decent point drops too.

[mertbl]

On 2/3/2024 at 1:34 AM, jarms48 said:

Astra Militarum order change was nice, but it needs to be clarified:
- If Officers can now issue double orders a turn. For example: Issue order from transport to unit A in command phase, disembark from transport then order unit B in movement phase. 
- If an Officer can issue MMM from a transport in a command phase, move ordered unit, then disembark officer from transport and order unit again. As ordering the unit again replaces the initial order, but MMM was already carried out.
- Can an Officer issue an order after a vehicle is destroyed in the enemy turn? 
- Can an Officer issue an order after using rapid ingress in the enemy turn?

 

 

 

 

 

-Officers can only issue X orders per turn, embarked or not they can't double up. 

-Rules as written it works like that, kind of like using the strat in your opponents turn. Its going to replace whatever order was in effect. 

-Yes they are set up on the battlefield. Unit that comes out would be battleshocked so not able to do anything with order. 

-Yes they are set up on the battlefield. 

[mertbl]

On 1/30/2024 at 5:19 PM, Sergeant Bastone said:

You can only do it "at the beginning of any phase".  Which means that if you fail a battleshock test you can't BLAM someone to make that unit scoring again.  

They can't score in the command phase but they would be eligible for the rest of turn. If they had received an order it would work again, they would be eligible to hold objectives for secondary purposes. 

[sairence]

While no point drops was pretty meh, the order change is huge and opens up oh so many possibilities and shennanigans.

 

It didn't look like much to me at first, but the more I've been thinking about it, the more stuff I can find. Nothing that wasn't possible before, sure, but so much that's just become so much more efficient all of a sudden.

 

In short, big buff to mechanised Guard and any kind of reserve shenanigans.

Edited February 5 by sairence

[jarms48]

11 hours ago, mertbl said:

-Officers can only issue X orders per turn, embarked or not they can't double up.  

 

It doesn't say per turn. 

 

This unit’s OFFICER can issue 1 Order to a REGIMENT unit.

 

OFFICER models can issue Orders in your Command phase and at the end of a phase in which they disembarked from a TRANSPORT or were set up on the battlefield.

 

The issue here is and so, your OFFICER can issue 1 Order to a REGIMENT unit in the Command phase and at the end of a phase in which they disembarked from a TRANSPORT or were set up on the battlefield. 

 

GW need to change it to either:

- This unit’s OFFICER can issue 1 Order to a REGIMENT unit per turn.

- OFFICER models can issue Orders in your Command phase or at the end of a phase in which they disembarked from a TRANSPORT or were set up on the battlefield.

  

11 hours ago, mertbl said:

-Yes they are set up on the battlefield. Unit that comes out would be battleshocked so not able to do anything with order.  

 

You're not ordering a battleshocked unit, a battleshocked officer can still issue an order to a non-battleshocked unit. For example:

- Enemy destroys a Chimera in their shooting phase, Officer orders Fix Bayonets to a non-battleshocked unit within Order range.

- Enemy destroys a Chimera in their fight phase, Officer orders Duty and Honour! to a non-battleshocked unit within Order range. 

 

 

 

[Cadian Bandstand]

I think the rules are really clear.

 

Officer can issue one order. What's changed is that you can order after deploying now. There's nothing there that says whilst in the transport and out. It's REALLY twisting the English language to suggest that ordering two orders in a single turn also fits in with 'can issue one order'

 

Honestly it's rubbish like this that really makes this hobby a headache sometimes 

[OldWherewolf]

41 minutes ago, Cadian Bandstand said:

I think the rules are really clear.

 

Officer can issue one order. What's changed is that you can order after deploying now. There's nothing there that says whilst in the transport and out. It's REALLY twisting the English language to suggest that ordering two orders in a single turn also fits in with 'can issue one order'

 

Honestly it's rubbish like this that really makes this hobby a headache sometimes 

 

I think most of us agree this is the intent.  However, no battle plan survives contact with a million internet rules lawyers...

[DemonGSides]

Yeah, especially since the rule states;

 

"If your Army Faction is Astra Militarum, Officer Models with this ability can issue Orders.  Each officer's datasheet will specify how MANY orders it can issue and which units are eligible to receive those Orders."  It continues on, less importantly.

Then, quick look at Castellan; "This Officer can issue 1 Order to Regiment units."

Seems pretty self explanatory to me.  If they ordered in the Command Phase, they can't order again until the next turn.

Yes, in the perfect legalese world, a single "per turn" added to their army rules basically clears this up without room for wiggle, but do we really need it spelled out when the intent was very obvious?  Yes, apparently.

 

Edit: Actually I change my mind, this whole thing is not much of a problem; there's not a situation that exists where a unit could order someone while inside a transport, thereby not needing to worry about "per turn".

Units inside transports can't use their abilities. (Rules Commentary, under Embarked Units;

"Units embarked within a Transport do not count as being on the battlefield for any rules purposes.  This means that, unless EXPLICITLY stated otherwise, embarked units cannot do anything (e.g. shoot, fight, USE ABILITIES, etc.).  Similarly, you cannot select an embarked unit as a target for any rules, including Strategems."  (Emphasis Mine))

I don't think there's a datacard that says "Issue orders to units inside a transport".  Obviously if that datacard exists, it upends that, but otherwise, I think it's pretty clear cut what the intent (And in fact, the execution) was.

Edited February 8 by DemonGSides

[Mr. Oddity]

7 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

Edit: Actually I change my mind, this whole thing is totally made up; there's not a situation that exists where a unit could order someone while inside a transport, thereby not needing to worry about "per turn".

...

I don't think there's a datacard that says "Issue orders to units inside a transport".  Obviously if that datacard exists, it upends that, but otherwise, I think it's pretty clear cut what the intent (And in fact, the execution) was.

 

I'll preface by saying that I agree an Officer's order count should be per turn based on presumed intent.
 

But to clarify: are you saying an Officer can't issue orders while in a transport or that they can't issue orders to other units inside transports? If the latter you are correct, if the former the Chimera's special rule allows an embarked Officer to issue their order(s) to an eligible unit despite not being on the table.

[DemonGSides]

Like I said, barring a datasheet that says otherwise, there's no concern here.

 

And because of the ways the Order rules work, an officer can only issue one order a turn (barring the specific named characters that can do otherwise).

 

The Chimera says that order has to be issued while measured from the Chimera. That automatically eliminates the transported unit as it's not set up within X" of the Chimera, because it's not on the battlefield.

 

I don't think there's a single situation that ends up coming to be possible with the hypothetical posted father up thread or even with the Chimera. Unless you twist both language and the obvious intent of the rules to a ridiculous degree.  If someone want to twist it that bad, I think it's just as obvious that the rules as written basically say each officer gets to make an order once per game (or however many it says under Orders on their sheet).  Since there's no time qualification, both beliefs are equally supported. 

 

Now, I think we all know that wasn't the intent, but apparently we don't know that the intent isn't free orders?  C'mon.  I'm with @Cadian Bandstand, the circles some people will run just to get the tiniest return is silly. 

[sairence]

Honestly, if you want to argue that the wording allows you to give x orders multiple times in the same turn, just in different phases, the I would say it's just as valid to argue that the number is your order max. For the whole game.

 

"This officer can issue 1 order." 

 

Says nothing there that it resets every turn. So enjoy that 1 order and better be reeeeeaaaal careful when you throw it out. 

 

PS: I'm obviously being facetious here. Let's just be sensible about this change, shall we? It's pretty damn nice as it is, without needing to invent additiobal benefits.