IG won a major event after dataslate

[Tokugawa]

https://bestcoastpairings.com/event/7TCi1GAyul?round=6

Beachhead brawl, 159 players, 6 rounds.

 

Also, iirc to FW old resin, 3x copies appearing in tournament top lists = sentence of death. Just like earthshaker in last autumn. Medusa nerf is coming soon. 

[Emperor Ming]

Don't think an army with a 45% win rates deserves any nerfs

[Tokugawa]

1 hour ago, Emperor Ming said:

Don't think an army with a 45% win rates deserves any nerfs

Yeah, IG need buff, not nerf, but "to purge FW resin away from competitive scene" has its own priority.

[casb1965]

Any idea what his list was, link asks for login.

[Tokugawa]

Gaunt's Ghosts

 

Leontus

 

Platoon Command Squad (75 Points)

• 1x Platoon Commander

• 1x Close combat weapon

1x Plasma pistol

1x Power fist

• Enhancements: Grand Strategist

• 2x Veteran Guardsman

• 2x Close combat weapon

2x Lasgun

2x Laspistol

1x Master Vox

1x Medi-pack

• 1x Veteran Heavy Weapons Team

• 1x Close combat weapon

1x Laspistol

1x Mortar

 

Tank Commander (205 Points)

• 1x Armoured tracks

1x Demolisher battle cannon

1x Heavy stubber

1x Hunter-killer missile

1x Lascannon

2x Multi-melta

 

Ursula Creed (55 Points)

• 1x Duty and Vengeance

1x Power weapon

 

BATTLELINE

 

Catachan Jungle Fighters (55 Points)

• 1x Jungle Fighter Sergeant

• 1x Close combat weapon

1x Laspistol

• 9x Jungle Fighter

• 9x Close combat weapon

2x Flamer

7x Lasgun

1x Vox-caster

 

Catachan Jungle Fighters (55 Points)

• 1x Jungle Fighter Sergeant

• 1x Close combat weapon

1x Laspistol

• 9x Jungle Fighter

• 9x Close combat weapon

2x Flamer

7x Lasgun

1x Vox-caster

 

Catachan Jungle Fighters (55 Points)

• 1x Jungle Fighter Sergeant

• 1x Close combat weapon

1x Laspistol

• 9x Jungle Fighter

• 9x Close combat weapon

2x Flamer

7x Lasgun

1x Vox-caster

 

Catachan Jungle Fighters (55 Points)

• 1x Jungle Fighter Sergeant

• 1x Close combat weapon

1x Laspistol

• 9x Jungle Fighter

• 9x Close combat weapon

2x Flamer

7x Lasgun

1x Vox-caster

 

Death Korps of Krieg (65 Points)

• 1x Death Korps Watchmaster

• 1x Plasma pistol

1x Power weapon

• 9x Death Korps Trooper

• 9x Close combat weapon

1x Death Korps Medi-pack

1x Grenade launcher

6x Lasgun

1x Meltagun

1x Plasma gun

 

OTHER DATASHEETS

 

Basilisk (135 Points)

• 1x Armoured tracks

1x Earthshaker cannon

1x Heavy bolter

1x Hunter-killer missile

 

Bullgryn Squad (80 Points)

• 1x Bullgryn Bone ’ead

• 1x Brute Shield

1x Bullgryn maul

1x Close combat weapon

• 2x Bullgryn

• 2x Brute Shield

2x Bullgryn maul

2x Close combat weapon

 

Bullgryn Squad (80 Points)

• 1x Bullgryn Bone ’ead

• 1x Brute Shield

1x Bullgryn maul

1x Close combat weapon

• 2x Bullgryn

• 2x Brute Shield

2x Bullgryn maul

2x Close combat weapon

 

Bullgryn Squad (80 Points)

• 1x Bullgryn Bone ’ead

• 1x Brute Shield

1x Bullgryn maul

1x Close combat weapon

• 2x Bullgryn

• 2x Brute Shield

2x Bullgryn maul

2x Close combat weapon

 

Kasrkin (100 Points)

• 1x Kasrkin Sergeant

• 1x Plasma pistol

1x Power weapon

• 9x Kasrkin

• 9x Close combat weapon

3x Hot-shot lasgun

1x Hot-shot laspistol

1x Hot-shot marksman rifle

1x Melta Mine

2x Meltagun

2x Plasma gun

1x Vox-caster

 

Medusa Carriage Battery (110 Points)

• 1x Battery close combat weapons

1x Medusa siege cannon

 

Medusa Carriage Battery (110 Points)

• 1x Battery close combat weapons

1x Medusa siege cannon

 

Medusa Carriage Battery (110 Points)

• 1x Battery close combat weapons

1x Medusa siege cannon

 

Rogal Dorn Battle Tank (260 Points)

• 1x Armoured tracks

1x Co-axial autocannon

1x Heavy stubber

2x Meltagun

2x Multi-melta

1x Oppressor cannon

1x Pulveriser cannon

 

ALLIED UNITS

 

Callidus Assassin 

[domsto]

This looks like an WTC List.

[TheArtilleryman]

What’s so strong about the Medusa?

[Tokugawa]

26 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

What’s so strong about the Medusa?

Low cost. It could be read as a manticore with 36" range, much more fragile chassis, 1 worse BS(but more sources to receive orders), 1 less attack, 1 better AP, and most important, 61% cost(of a manticore).

 

If it cost more than 80% of a manticore, then there wouldn't be anyone talking about bringing it to a tournament game.

[casb1965]

However, Medusas are a lot easier to kill. T7 6W 5+ save vs T10 11W 4+  save for the Manticore.

 

Also, I make the cost 73% of a Manticore, 110pts v 150pts.

[Emperor Ming]

3 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

What’s so strong about the Medusa?

I wouldnt call it a amazing choice, I wouldn't say it was op

 

Its good

 

Cant we have good units

[TheArtilleryman]

2 hours ago, casb1965 said:

However, Medusas are a lot easier to kill. T7 6W 5+ save vs T10 11W 4+  save for the Manticore.

 

Also, I make the cost 73% of a Manticore, 110pts v 150pts.

Oh that’s quite a bit worse. Also Manticores have a 3+ save not 4+ …

 

3 Medusas are 330 points. For 325-335 points you could instead have:

 

 

2 basilisks and a Taurox

3 hydras and a castellan

4 chimeras and a castellan

5 tauroxes

50 infantry (5 squads) tooled up with heavy and special weapons plus a commissar

 

So many other options. For only 320 you could get 2 Leman Russ punishers/eradicators. 2 Vanquishers would only be 310.
 

Granted, the guy won the tournament with this list but I’d much rather have pretty much any of these alternatives. Especially all the transports to get those Bullgryns up in their faces and to clutch late objectives.

 

Edit: didn’t realise the Rogal Dorn has 8 guns. I bet Leman Russ is hacked off …

 

Extra edit: removed the bits about Manticore points

Edited February 12 by TheArtilleryman

[sairence]

2 hours ago, casb1965 said:

Also, I make the cost 73% of a Manticore, 110pts v 150pts.

Manticores went up to 180p in the last dataslate.

[TheArtilleryman]

14 minutes ago, sairence said:

Manticores went up to 180p in the last dataslate.

Bummer. Best revise my post.

[casb1965]

2 hours ago, sairence said:

Manticores went up to 180p in the last dataslate.

And I took the cost straight from Warhammer+ app, nice to see GW are up to date with things 

[casb1965]

Still can't see how the Medusa is a better choice, at T7  6W  and 5+ save it just dies too quickly compared to T10 11W 4+ save.

[TheArtilleryman]

35 minutes ago, casb1965 said:

And I took the cost straight from Warhammer+ app, nice to see GW are up to date with things 

My app shows the right cost. Maybe you need to update yours? BattleScribe also up to date.

Edited February 12 by TheArtilleryman

[Tokugawa]

8 hours ago, casb1965 said:

However, Medusas are a lot easier to kill. T7 6W 5+ save vs T10 11W 4+  save for the Manticore.

 

Also, I make the cost 73% of a Manticore, 110pts v 150pts.

Manticore is 180pts now. If manticore wasn't hit by patch, Medusa would stay on shelf today.

Edited February 13 by Tokugawa

[Emperor Ming]

3 minutes ago, Tokugawa said:

Manticore is 180pts. Now.

Ah yes, the no one will take it ever price

[sairence]

10 hours ago, casb1965 said:

Still can't see how the Medusa is a better choice, at T7  6W  and 5+ save it just dies too quickly compared to T10 11W 4+ save.

It's an indirect fire piece. It's meant tk be hidden away, so the most important bit of is is the gun, less so the othee stats. 

10 hours ago, casb1965 said:

And I took the cost straight from Warhammer+ app, nice to see GW are up to date with things 

The app was updated the day the slate dropped. For some reason it doesn't always auto-update though, and needs to be manually triggered. Think that might be more of an OS-issue than an app-one though.

[casb1965]

11 minutes ago, sairence said:

It's an indirect fire piece. It's meant tk be hidden away, so the most important bit of is is the gun, less so the othee stats. 

The app was updated the day the slate dropped. For some reason it doesn't always auto-update though, and needs to be manually triggered. Think that might be more of an OS-issue than an app-one though.

 

The Manticore is the same though, hide it and indirect fire. However, with the current meta of big guns and mobility they won't stay hidden very long. That's when any S8 / S9 woulds the Medusa on 3s and the Manticore on 5s.

 

Yes, updated the app and it updated the points.

Edited February 13 by casb1965
Addition

[AutumnEffect]

12 hours ago, casb1965 said:

Still can't see how the Medusa is a better choice, at T7  6W  and 5+ save it just dies too quickly compared to T10 11W 4+ save.

You can recycle the Medusa Carriage with the Reinforcements! stratagem.
So long as you have two command points to spare, you could bring on a Medusa Carriage that was destroyed every turn and it'll be able to fire at BS 4+ with the Take Aim! Order that same turn.

It's gun is flat out superior to the Manticore as well, AP -3 is a big deal.
All this on a cheaper package.

Edited February 13 by AutumnEffect

[casb1965]

39 minutes ago, AutumnEffect said:

You can recycle the Medusa Carriage with the Reinforcements! stratagem.
So long as you have two command points to spare, you could bring on a Medusa Carriage that was destroyed every turn and it'll be able to fire at BS 4+ with the Take Aim! Order that same turn.

It's gun is flat out superior to the Manticore as well, AP -3 is a big deal.
All this on a cheaper package.

 

You've just used 2CP and an order to equal what the Manticore already gives you.

I'll take one of those CP and throw on Expert Bombadiers to get +1 to hit and save a CP and an order for something else.

Also the Medusa gun is not "flat out superior", it has shorter range, 1 less shot and hits on a 5+ base. The extra AP slightly negates the 5+ base but not totally as the 16%  less chance of a save does not equal a 16% less chance to hit on fewer shots.

I think we can safely say we'll agree to disagree on this subject.

[AutumnEffect]

20 minutes ago, casb1965 said:

 

You've just used 2CP and an order to equal what the Manticore already gives you.

I'll take one of those CP and throw on Expert Bombadiers to get +1 to hit and save a CP and an order for something else.

Also the Medusa gun is not "flat out superior", it has shorter range, 1 less shot and hits on a 5+ base. The extra AP slightly negates the 5+ base but not totally as the 16%  less chance of a save does not equal a 16% less chance to hit on fewer shots.

I think we can safely say we'll agree to disagree on this subject.

A hit roll can never be modified by more than +1, so with the Manticore being Heavy, unless your target has a -1 to hit then you don't really need Expert Bombardiers.
-1 to hit is fairly rare this edition and almost all (if not all) indirect weapons in the AM arsenal are Heavy. Yes it could give you +1 to hit if you moved, but if your Manticore is moving then something's wrong anyway. It's a very niche strat.

I do think we will just have to agree to disagree on the gun.
36" gets you such a vast majority of the table that more isn't really needed. 
The 1 less shot for AP -3 is a trade well spent.
Take Aim improves the Ballistic Skill of the model by 1, letting it combine with Heavy for a 3+ to hit.

But the real strength of it by comparison to tracked artillery is that you can just bring it back turn after turn with Reinforcements. If you concede that the gun is, at least, good, then you are potentially bringing back hundreds of points of a good gun in a game.

Edited February 13 by AutumnEffect

[casb1965]

15 minutes ago, AutumnEffect said:

The 1 less shot for AP -3 is a trade well spent.

 

It's not just 1 less shot.

At base level, ignoring orders and stratagem it's 1 less shot and 1 pip worse to hit.

D6+1 @ 4+ to hit is better than D6 @ 5+ to hit.

The extra pip of AP does not equal the loss in shooting power to hit in the first place.

 

Other than the Reinforcements strat I can't think if a stratagem or order you can give a Medusa that the Manticore doesn't also benefit from.

 

[AutumnEffect]

19 hours ago, casb1965 said:

 

It's not just 1 less shot.

At base level, ignoring orders and stratagem it's 1 less shot and 1 pip worse to hit.

D6+1 @ 4+ to hit is better than D6 @ 5+ to hit.

The extra pip of AP does not equal the loss in shooting power to hit in the first place.

 

Other than the Reinforcements strat I can't think if a stratagem or order you can give a Medusa that the Manticore doesn't also benefit from.

 

Three Medusa Carriages cost 330 points.
Two Manticores cost 360 points.

We can go round and round about the gun. I don't really see much benefit in comparing them in a vacuum since that'll be so rare on the tabletop. 
If we suppose that the Manticore is the better gun, for the sake of argument, then it isn't better enough.
The two weapons, despite which we think is better, are close enough that it doesn't justify the Manticore being more than half again as expensive just because it's somewhat less trivial to remove. Of all the units in the game, indirect artillery is the one where the toughness is the least valuable attribute.

Reinforcements is a big deal. Besides there being only six stratagems at the moment for the Imperial Guard to choose from, having the capacity to bring a unit back onto the table is huge.
It isn't trivial that it has access to Reinforcements.

Edited February 14 by AutumnEffect