Deathwing Knight Loadout

[Prot]

I'm sorry if this has been covered, but I couldn't find any recent conversation on this...

 

I was doing the math (albeit poorly) on the Maces vs. the Swords for the Deathwing Knights.

 

The way I understand it, these seem to be VERY similar choices. I can't discern where one would be advantageous over the other in an all comers list. 

 

I ended up just going with the Maces because I actually like the look, and it reminds me of the old ones. (pre nerf).

 

I'm wondering if there's been anyone who's had some play testing with this and what your thoughts are. I won't get my first game in until this Friday.

[Balthamal]

I saw the math-hammer over on reddit a while back and iirc it came down to maces being the optimal choice for MEQ/hordes and again for T9 onwards whereas the swords would be more efficient against TEQ but the differences were so minimalist that it doesn't really make a massive difference when push comes to shove.

[Prot]

Thanks for this. Yea, with my limited ability to math this stuff out I felt it was coming down to a coin toss.

 Maybe the difference comes in when you add the potential of a character leading or a strat in use.

[Progenitor]

Considering their new expense and that they don't actually output that much damage they're probably not going to make it into any meta lists anyway, so in that case I'm not sure it really matters too much how you arm them. When I was looking at it is seems they're pretty much a wash so take whatever you want. The inherent strength of Knights is to sit them on an objective and soak damage really. No matter what you equip them with they're not going to kill a whole lot so, at that point, does it even matter? 

I'm going with Maces on mine because that's what the old kit had and it makes them stand out from BGV and the other Termies and characters that all come with swords. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'm going to build mine with swords, at least the first squad. The math ends out fairly equivalent between the two, and I have older Deathwing Knights I can use if I really want the maces.

 

I'll pick up some more later that I'll probably give the maces.

Edited February 14 by WrathOfTheLion

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, Progenitor said:

Considering their new expense and that they don't actually output that much damage they're probably not going to make it into any meta lists anyway, so in that case I'm not sure it really matters too much how you arm them. When I was looking at it is seems they're pretty much a wash so take whatever you want. The inherent strength of Knights is to sit them on an objective and soak damage really. No matter what you equip them with they're not going to kill a whole lot so, at that point, does it even matter? 

I'm going with Maces on mine because that's what the old kit had and it makes them stand out from BGV and the other Termies and characters that all come with swords. 

They still make a pretty good anvil as Stormshield Terminators with a teleport homer.  They're not great, but their value is in their tankiness not their killiness. 

[Tacitus]

14 hours ago, Prot said:

Thanks for this. Yea, with my limited ability to math this stuff out I felt it was coming down to a coin toss.

 Maybe the difference comes in when you add the potential of a character leading or a strat in use.

Even then the difference is pretty minimal.   16 vs 20 (+Sergeant) attacks is going to change very little.  Especially when your choices are:

Belial: Precision - not math

Captain:  Reroll Charges - not math

Chaplain: +1 to Melee wound rolls - both are S6 - minor Math that doesn't differ based on which one you're using.

Librarian: Sustained Hits - roughly half-ish a model's worth of bonus hits. 

Ancient: Hit Roll bonus overlapping with OOM and the base 2+ to hit

 

Basically the available HQ's are going to do little difference between either choice of weapon.  The model count multiplied by the attack count doesn't get big enough - and most of the abilities are not dice based anyway. 

 

I mean realistically your best wombo-combo offensively is a Terminator Librarian with 1st Company Taskforce Enhancement The Imperium's Sword to give you a one-turn bonus of  4+1 extra attacks Sustained Hits - which unfortunately doubles up with the maces - or a Chaplain (with the same) making your S6 weapons wound on 2's while you hope for Devastating Wounds. 

 

We pretty much come back to them being a better anvil than a hammer. 

[Progenitor]

I do get the feeling that while the Codex was developed someone really liked the idea of the Knights sat on your Vowed objective and not being moved, so it really does look like that's what we got, a very expensive, tanky unit. 

[NTaW]

Is there any value in, for the sake of cool, having maces in the squad and a sword on the sergeant? Seems that is a legal loadout from my grainy Codex pic.

[Balthamal]

1 hour ago, NTaW said:

Is there any value in, for the sake of cool, having maces in the squad and a sword on the sergeant? Seems that is a legal loadout from my grainy Codex pic.

 

Yes because the sergeants weapon is either a relic weapon, or a Great Weapon of the Unforgiven. Neither mandate they be swords or Maces.

[FarFromSam]

Removal of granularity means you should build them for rule of cool, and then write down which profile you're taking and let your opponent know.  With this unit you'll not run into opponents who've memorized every unit's weapon profile, so it won't matter.  

[Bloody Legionnaire]

2 hours ago, FarFromSam said:

Removal of granularity means you should build them for rule of cool, and then write down which profile you're taking and let your opponent know.  With this unit you'll not run into opponents who've memorized every unit's weapon profile, so it won't matter.  

 

Do you think this point is at least a positive to the game being "simplified?" 

It starts with the community changing their attitudes towards WYSIWYG.. or lack there of. It would be nice if people were more accepting of what's in the list, vs what's on the model. 

[FarFromSam]

Oh you got it.  For sure the positive using the best profile available, idk where "simplified" comes from, but it is nice to not magnetize the night before an event.  The negative is what's the point of other load outs so similar?    Hopefully GW can get us the best of both worlds rather than the worst.  

[Bloody Legionnaire]

1 hour ago, FarFromSam said:

Oh you got it.  For sure the positive using the best profile available, idk where "simplified" comes from, but it is nice to not magnetize the night before an event.  The negative is what's the point of other load outs so similar?    Hopefully GW can get us the best of both worlds rather than the worst.  

 

In previous editions having to pay for wargear really mixed up the viability of certain weapons.. Not having to pay for them IMO has added to the realm of possibilities. That's what I meant by simplified things.

[Tacitus]

13 hours ago, FarFromSam said:

Oh you got it.  For sure the positive using the best profile available, idk where "simplified" comes from, but it is nice to not magnetize the night before an event.  The negative is what's the point of other load outs so similar?    Hopefully GW can get us the best of both worlds rather than the worst.  

They screwed this one up - the loadouts shouldn't be so similar.   And there shouldn't be a clear winner.  Look at the basic Termaintor Assault Squad.  Twin Lightning Claws are a clear loser.  Thunderhammers are "good enough" at the lightning claw role, especially with the proliferation of multi-wound infantry.   Bump the Lightning Claws to Twin Linked, 6A, D2 and we're a lot closer to the difference becoming a significant but roughly equal choice.  The Captain with Jump Pack just released only really has two significant choices.  The Relic Weapon is not really a choice, while the Thunderhammer and Power fist are insignificantly different beyond flavor choices, leaving it either of those vs the faster Chainsword as the significant choice - though less so because the new Primaris Assault Intercessor Jump Squad (and the new Heriloom Vanguard Vets) lacks a parallel to the Eviscerator Heavy Weapon anti-tank/monster option for Jump Packers, pretty much forcing you into doing your Anti-Monster/Vehicle from the Jump Captain.  Give those squads a couple Big Bangers (Thunderhammers/Eviscerators/Meltabombs/etc) and then turning your captain into a Grot-Ginsu is a relatively equal option. 

Edited February 15 by Tacitus

[Tacitus]

19 hours ago, NTaW said:

Is there any value in, for the sake of cool, having maces in the squad and a sword on the sergeant? Seems that is a legal loadout from my grainy Codex pic.

There's mathematical value. 

 

The Relic Blade gives you 1 more A and at S7 putting To-Wound vs Gravis and equivalent on a 3+ while the Mace gives you most of 1A on a Sustained Hit and about half of a Devastating Wound success (so 2 Mortals)  And its wasted if you attach a Terminator Librarian - not that most people will espeically on a unit with a Watcher token.  The other two Terminator HQs synergize better with meleenators.  S6 Hammers led by a Chaplain in Terminator Armor wound a T9 Carnifex on 5's with a +1 for back to 4s.   Vs other Terminators the hammers wound on 3's (6v5) +1 or natural 2's. The Relic Blade at S7 will be in even better shape - Even T6 Gravis and equivalent are now wounded on natural 2's or better.