Newer models less easily convertable?

[Ryno]

I'm getting back into the hobby after some ~18 years away, and I was wondering about the current state of models' ease of convertability. In the mid 2000s when I was hobbying before, the mainline squads were rife with easily convertable parts. Guns were always separate from hands, so you could pick and choose or easily modify to combine different posed limbs with different weapons and the like. Hacking and chopping wasn't needed for such basic part swaps. Looking at the sprue pictures of the newer models, particularly the main battle line Primaris squads, it looks the trend now is for weapons to be molded with hands and partial arms, so we're a bit more locked into poses and loadouts now.

The first concern is that it makes it much more difficult to customize and swap loadouts the way we used to. How are people navigating this?

 

I was planning on printing up some custom bolter, bolt pistol and shotgun variants for my new marines, but since the official kits come with hands attached to the weapons, I think this is going to be a lot more challenging than it used to be... Especially for anything held in both hands, like a bolter.

Edited February 23 by Ryno

[Karhedron]

Modern squads are definitely harder to convert. We don't need to swap loadouts though as most Primaris squads just get a single weapon type now.

[Ryno]

Dang. Was hoping there was a little trick I was missing!

I'm mostly interested in modifying for personalization, rather than actual loadouts. I'll figure something out, though; customization is and has always been the biggest draw to the hobby for me :) 

[tychobi]

All the modern wave is mono build.  To convert usually it means fully assembling the model and cutting it apart after.  Its not a good time for creativity in the hobby right now.

[Ryno]

That's quite disappointing to hear. Seems a bit short-sighted on the part of GW, as well; converting was such a big part of it back when I was into the hobby previously. I bet there'd be less 3D printing piracy if the newer models were easier to customize...

[LameBeard]

It definitely is more difficult, but that makes it more satisfying when you’ve achieved it! 
 

[TheArtilleryman]

It is certainly a lot trickier but it can be done … I chopped up some assault intercessors to make vanguard veterans:

 

 

Had to cut the arms off straight above the elbow and the same for the power fist and lightning claw arms, then do some filing to get them to fit straight. 
 

I definitely agree that it’s a shame the kits aren’t so customisable. Since the first multipart tactical squad in the 90s we’ve been able to mix and match parts from every conceivable different space marine kit and it gave unlimited possibilities. Now it’s like they’re designed to deliberately discourage conversion work.

[Ryno]

2 hours ago, LameBeard said:

It definitely is more difficult, but that makes it more satisfying when you’ve achieved it! 
 

Great point!
 

36 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

It is certainly a lot trickier but it can be done … I chopped up some assault intercessors to make vanguard veterans:

 

 

Had to cut the arms off straight above the elbow and the same for the power fist and lightning claw arms, then do some filing to get them to fit straight. 
 

I definitely agree that it’s a shame the kits aren’t so customisable. Since the first multipart tactical squad in the 90s we’ve been able to mix and match parts from every conceivable different space marine kit and it gave unlimited possibilities. Now it’s like they’re designed to deliberately discourage conversion work.

They look fantastic! Any tips for getting the filed surface flat? I always wound up rounding it a little as the file rocked a bit. Nothing a bit of filler can't deal with, of course.

[Grotsmasha]

6 hours ago, Ryno said:

I was planning on printing up some custom bolter, bolt pistol and shotgun variants for my new marines, but since the official kits come with hands attached to the weapons, I think this is going to be a lot more challenging than it used to be... Especially for anything held in both hands, like a bolter.

If you're 3d printing, you can digitally kit-bash in your slicer. For example, in chitubox, I regularly position multiple files in a desired position and save all as an STL.

I say this meaning any weapons you were /are going to print, just add the hands in your slicer and save those as an STL.

[Wormwoods]

Space Marines are still easy-mode for kitbashing and converting, even with the modern kits being less natively designed for it. Excepting certain, mostly elite squads and any of the purely monopose stuff from new edition kits they all have the same shoulder joints and swappable heads. 

 

The biggest stumbling block is that with hands now attached to the gun, rather than sculpted to 'cup' it, you do need to be pairing arms up as a default. But, like... You can still mix and match bodies from all over the line, helmets, shoulder pads, decoration bits, and that's all before you get into ACTUAL conversions, cutting things up and mixing them. You can turn Intercessors into bladeguard and LTs, it's all just a few bit swaps and an appropriate base size away. 

 

Outside of Marines, though, yeah. It's a lot harder. The downside of the modern sculpts being more dynamic and detailed, I guess. But then, show me a xenos army that ever lent itself to the same sort of easy kitbashing as marines or orcs. 

[Karhedron]

12 hours ago, Ryno said:

I'm mostly interested in modifying for personalization, rather than actual loadouts. I'll figure something out, though; customization is and has always been the biggest draw to the hobby for me :) 

 

Don't worry, converting and customising is still alive and well in the grim dark future.  I usually scratch my converting itch with with my Space Wolves, all the models below started life as monopose figures.

 

Bladeguard Veterans started life as the single-pose models from Indomitus.

 

My Judiciar from the same box was a fairly simple head-swap.

 

My Wolf Lord in Gravis armour started life as Marneus Calgar.

[TheArtilleryman]

7 hours ago, Ryno said:

Great point!
 

They look fantastic! Any tips for getting the filed surface flat? I always wound up rounding it a little as the file rocked a bit. Nothing a bit of filler can't deal with, of course.

Thank you! I say “filed” but really what I mean is as clean a cut as possible with a sharp knife and then carefully shaving layers using the knife sideways and fit testing a bunch of times until I’m happy with it. The knife gives a much smoother surface than filing or sanding I find.

 

If you can cut right above the elbow or below the shoulder instead of in the middle of the forearm or upper arm it makes it easier to line the pieces up. In this case I couldn’t do that every time though because of the positioning of the arms and the fact the shoulder pads were already moulded on. Either of the red lines:

 

 

If the fit isn’t quite perfect once you’ve done it you can then do a bit more shaving like you would with mould lines to smooth it before painting. Good thing about the plastic glue is it can often melt away the smallest of joins by itself.

 

It isn't even the weapons being attached to the hands that bugs me the most, it’s the bracers overlapping the hand so you can’t get a clean cut (blue circle).

Edited February 24 by TheArtilleryman

[andes]

TBF, there were still a lot of metal models in the 40k range 18 years ago and modern plastics are a LOT easier to convert than they were. I still have nightmares about building metal models (Land Raider Crusader metal hurricane bolters anyone? <shudder>) let alone converting them.

[Terminatorinhell]

Yeah it takes a bit of extra work sometimes. My chapter master I sort of cheated and uses 3D printed parts but like his iconic helmet is impossible to find these days. 

 

And yeah I just put together a thing of metal crusader hurricane bolters a few weeks ago. That was a nightmare. 

[Ryno]

17 hours ago, Grotsmasha said:

If you're 3d printing, you can digitally kit-bash in your slicer. For example, in chitubox, I regularly position multiple files in a desired position and save all as an STL.

I say this meaning any weapons you were /are going to print, just add the hands in your slicer and save those as an STL.

 

I did find a rigged Blender file for Primaris, so I could pose it and print. I would like to keep as much actual GW plastics in my army as I can though, so it will likely be a balancing act trying to get a pose close enough to use the arms from a kit, for instance.

As someone who runs a business purely built around generating new IP for our clients, I understand how important it is to protect it, so I definitely want to use as much of the actual product as I can without limiting my own end results, if that makes sense. I definitely will be doing some printing, it's just a bit trickier with the hands on the weapons now :)

 

11 hours ago, Wormwoods said:

Space Marines are still easy-mode for kitbashing and converting, even with the modern kits being less natively designed for it. Excepting certain, mostly elite squads and any of the purely monopose stuff from new edition kits they all have the same shoulder joints and swappable heads. 

 

The biggest stumbling block is that with hands now attached to the gun, rather than sculpted to 'cup' it, you do need to be pairing arms up as a default. But, like... You can still mix and match bodies from all over the line, helmets, shoulder pads, decoration bits, and that's all before you get into ACTUAL conversions, cutting things up and mixing them. You can turn Intercessors into bladeguard and LTs, it's all just a few bit swaps and an appropriate base size away. 

 

Outside of Marines, though, yeah. It's a lot harder. The downside of the modern sculpts being more dynamic and detailed, I guess. But then, show me a xenos army that ever lent itself to the same sort of easy kitbashing as marines or orcs. 

 

That's good to read! So maybe not quite as hard as I feared, just not as easy as it was back in the mid 2000s.

 

10 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Don't worry, converting and customising is still alive and well in the grim dark future.  I usually scratch my converting itch with with my Space Wolves, all the models below started life as monopose figures.

 

Bladeguard Veterans started life as the single-pose models from Indomitus.

 

My Judiciar from the same box was a fairly simple head-swap.

 

My Wolf Lord in Gravis armour started life as Marneus Calgar.

 

Nicely done!

 

10 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Thank you! I say “filed” but really what I mean is as clean a cut as possible with a sharp knife and then carefully shaving layers using the knife sideways and fit testing a bunch of times until I’m happy with it. The knife gives a much smoother surface than filing or sanding I find.

 

If you can cut right above the elbow or below the shoulder instead of in the middle of the forearm or upper arm it makes it easier to line the pieces up. In this case I couldn’t do that every time though because of the positioning of the arms and the fact the shoulder pads were already moulded on. Either of the red lines:

 

 

If the fit isn’t quite perfect once you’ve done it you can then do a bit more shaving like you would with mould lines to smooth it before painting. Good thing about the plastic glue is it can often melt away the smallest of joins by itself.

 

It isn't even the weapons being attached to the hands that bugs me the most, it’s the bracers overlapping the hand so you can’t get a clean cut (blue circle).

 

Thanks!

I actually don't like those forearm bracers; they look a bit incongruent with the rest of the armor imo. I'll likely be using arms without them on my melee models.

Thanks for the tips! I still haven't had a look at the Primaris models in person (I'm going to be doing some practice painting and converting on my old 3rd/4th ed plastic kits first) but just basing the observations on the sprue pics on the site.

 

3 hours ago, andes said:

TBF, there were still a lot of metal models in the 40k range 18 years ago and modern plastics are a LOT easier to convert than they were. I still have nightmares about building metal models (Land Raider Crusader metal hurricane bolters anyone? <shudder>) let alone converting them.

Oh man, I do not miss those. Especially the various tank addition kits. They were always wonky and warped, they never fit together properly. That Crusader build still gives me the cold sweats...

I also remember the quality was pretty poor; most of them had some serious surface pitting. Looked like the molten metal was still bubbling when they were cast or something, lots of little pitted pockets and stuff in the final parts. Some were completely unusable, others required a substantial amount of filling and sanding to be passable... Glad they've moved away from them.

 

Thanks, everyone! I should be able to finally get back into painting this week now that I've sorted the basic colours. Need to pick up a few paints and then I'm off to the races again.

[Evil Eye]

On 2/24/2024 at 7:38 AM, Wormwoods said:

But then, show me a xenos army that ever lent itself to the same sort of easy kitbashing as marines or orcs. 

Tyranids would like a word. Hell, the 3E book even had a whole section dedicated to showing how to mix and match bits to represent the mutation rules!

 

On 2/24/2024 at 8:14 AM, Karhedron said:

Don't worry, converting and customising is still alive and well in the grim dark future.  I usually scratch my converting itch with with my Space Wolves, all the models below started life as monopose figures.

Nice work, and major props for the bases!

[Halandaar]

You can still freely mix and match heads, arms, shoulders pads, backpacks and weapons much as you always could. The only real "losses" in terms of customisability are supporting left hands being sculpted onto weapons, rather than having empty "cupping" positions, and the torsos being in fixed positions relative to the legs, rather than the ball/socket joint of older designs (and that's less of a loss to positioning and more about not being able to mix armour styles, like Sanguinary Guard torsos with Devastator legs or something).

 

And this is really just talking about kitbashing, converting (i.e where you actually are modifying the parts themselves with cutting/sculpting) is the same as before. If anything, some models (especially characters) are way more easily converted now than they used to be when simply by virtue of being plastic rather than a single slab of resin or metal.

[Guest]

On 2/24/2024 at 1:22 AM, Grotsmasha said:

If you're 3d printing, you can digitally kit-bash in your slicer. For example, in chitubox, I regularly position multiple files in a desired position and save all as an STL.

I say this meaning any weapons you were /are going to print, just add the hands in your slicer and save those as an STL.

 

I would be lost without my printers now :)

 

Just being able to do that aux grenade launcher in a better pose makes me super happy.

[Wormwoods]

17 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

Tyranids would like a word. Hell, the 3E book even had a whole section dedicated to showing how to mix and match bits to represent the mutation rules!

See, I would have remembered that, except I still hold a grudge about my bespoke 3rd ed Carnifexes all being illegal in 4th. So it goes.

[Evil Eye]

Wasn't that 4th to 5th? IIRC the 3E Carnifex didn't lose any options going to 4th, unless I'm forgetting something.

[Xenith]

I think this really boils down to the ball-jointed waist. Previously, you could freely mix and match torsos and legs. Some arms wouldn't go in certain poses, and the same is true now. Many conversions rely on arm, weapon and head swaps, which are still easily achievable. As above, if we go back far enough, we get into the metals that we saw from 1987 - 2010, which were undoubtedly harder.

 

Personally, while the new more dynamic poses mean I have to work harder to swap a torso, they offer much better bases to begin a conversion from. I dont have to spend ages making a marine upright, true scaling it, or making it run, as it's already there. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The "freedom" of the ball jointed waist was a bit misleading. Because the models always looked like their legs and torsos weren't aligned.

I much prefer the present situation, primarily with marines, where the flow of the body looks right, and I can freely use arms, hands and heads to make a unique, and often more dynamic, pose.

[Valkyrion]

Kitbashing across multiple ranges is harder than it used to be.

For example, chaos marines being represented by a rag tag assortment of armour would allow you buy a box of each type of power armour across the whole range, glue the torso halves together and then freely mix with any legs - so you could have space wolf legs, blood angels torso, chaos arms, dark angels backpack, black templar head.

Now you could have primaris body with chaos arms and head, or chaos body with primaris arms and head. I don't know if CSM backpacks have the same fitting as primaris packs?

 

But kitbashing within your range is fine. I'm not sure about the aggressors and inceptors being compatible with heavy intercessors or eradicators, but you can freely mix and match intercessors, assault intercessors, hellblasters, bladeguard (more or less; they have fatter shoulders so need gravis pads) etc. 

 

But it's no big deal really, and the trade off in sculpt quality compared to back in the day is worth it. 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

I think is an step back in this hobby. Maybe not much complicated, but still give problem to make easy, fast and visually attractive for a beginner. You need more tools,more care,... I do a lot of transformations and is far more easy with previous plastic models than actual ones. There's much more fun and options (and less complications)for me, a MK4 model than in an actual MK6, for example.

Edited February 27 by Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf

[Karhedron]

13 hours ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

I think is an step back in this hobby. Maybe not much complicated, but still give problem to make easy, fast and visually attractive for a beginner. 

 

It is a trade-off. Models require more effort to convert than the previous generation of "Firstborn" marines but look a lot better "out of the box" with better posing and proportions.