Games with the new DA codex. Page 4: NEW Detachment Rules!

[Prot]

Hey all, 

 

Just thought I'd start a thread for some experience sharing and feedback.

 

So far I've had just two games with the new First Company Task Force detachment:

 

Both games were identical lists for me. Basically imagine the Deathwing Assault Box plus Az, hellblasters, Bladeguard (lead by Asmodai), Ballistus, Brutalis, and a smattering of troops.

 

First game I was losing most of the game, I went second though and had the biggest scoring turn 5 I've ever had in 10th edition (I think it was 25 points in total.) To win that game by 3 points. It was against Nids, and really the ability to clobber some of the mosters with maces, on top of a vowed objective was the turning point. But I VERY easily could have lost that game if I hadn't had that last turn card draw.

 

Also, just FYI I found the Bladeguard invaluable. Their defensive stance, combined with Asmodai was....potentially better than anything I was doing with the Termies.

 

Second game was last night, against Deathguard. I'll just say right off the bat my opponent thought he was losing, but I knew from the bottom of T1 that he had total table domination. We played the mission where you get 4 points for killing a unit, and another 4 for killing more. This is where I knew I had my only chance. He had 3 squads of Termies, as I did, however he also had a TON of table control. So deep striking and scoring would be a problem.

 

He thought he was losing because I kept getting "kill more" but I did tell him that at this rate, even if I out killed him every turn, I would be tabled by Turn 4-5 I estimated.

 

I was correct.... although he was certain he was losing, by T4 I had very little table control. Belial is just... bad. Horrible I'd say. He's swinging a S6 powerfist essentially and his 'ability' is nearly inconsequential. 

 

I did have a moment where I took tremendous risk with the Deathwing Knights with maces. I went deep in his corner with the squad (with Termie Libby attached for Sustained 1). I knew it was suicide but I thought with -1 Damage, and AoC I could risk it. The idea was if I could get 2-3 squads to turn back to get me, I had some room to move Azrael/hellblasters and Assault Intercessors up to mid board to push back and gain objectives.

 

No go. The fact is the Deathguard are as resilient as my army BUT that gross aura of -1 to armour save against a largely terminator based army and -1 Toughness just destroyed me.  The DW Knights did make a valiant attempt at holding on and it did take him forever, but he did kill the squad to the man, and his psyker throwing mortals and the Blightspawn was just a Termie killer. (Auto hitting at -2 (effectively -3 no cover, -1 toughness just melted me eventually).

 

So I tried where I could to push back and the Bladeguard with Asmodai stood on a Vowed Objective most of the game, and I'll be damned if he didn't keep feeding me units there. I even told him to stop! I told him that if he stopped feeding me stuff there and just gave up that objectve (He already had most of the table) that he would essentially skunk me. I think his ego just wouldn't let it go. 5 Termies also helped there, but realistically it was Asmodai + 6 Bladeguard + objective Vow that made a huge difference. Again, if he just shoots me on that objective, no big deal.

 

So by bottom of T4 All I had was Asmodai and 1 blade guard, the Brutalis (Severely wounded) Azrael and his Apothecary (Hellblasters were dead) and 5 Termies.  I should also mention his two tanks are just extremely solid. I couldn't really do much to them, and with his aura's and their shooting, I was losing far too much. His Poxwalkers really laughed at my plethora of termie stormbolters which was really annoying. I still think Termie Stormbolters should be AP1. (even like Aggressors at closest target unit.)

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Conclusions thus far:

- The Deathwing Termies are very passible. There is no real tactical advantage here I can think of.  I stupidly made one of the squads have the Plasma Cannon for fluff reasons, but he's died every game. (There's no point in taking that weapon imo without overcharging.) I did not take chain fists as I have found in my other marine armies the regular fist is far better.  But again these guys just needed some sort of tweak to be useful.

 

- Deathwing Knights. I actually like them. They don't kill much, but by virtue of dying slowly, they do kill stuff... slowly. On a good day, they can be super annoying to kill. The points likely need to come down a bit though.

 

- Belial. Ugh. I keep using him as "Belial" just because it's... Belial! But that sword is SO bad, and his actual rules are deplorable imo. Out of everything that has me scratching my head in the codex, this is honestly one unit that I just put in trash teir and I can't figure out a way to make him work that doesn't have me swapping him out for almost any other Termie HQ.  The Master of the Deathwing really is a disappointment in every way for me. I truly hope you find better mileage.

 

- I want to be wrong about his, and it's speculation but Bladeguard appear far better than Companions. Again, I haven't played companions but keeping a close eye on what Asmodai does with Bladeguard... I don't know what I'm going to do with Companions.

 

- Finally the detachment. I don't think it's as bad as people are making it out to be. The true gems I use most games are: T1 Deepstrike ability and some of the strats can be game changing. The Vowed objective strat allowing re-roll all wounds is impressive when you're lower level strength units with decent AP are hitting a very tough target. 

 

I actually really like the 'feel' of the detachment, where it falls short is in the Deathwing termie design. The fact many characters have the "Deathwing" keyword means you can 'cheat' and get the Deathwing key word in many areas of your army I don't think you would expect it to be. That being said, I still feel like the regular deathwing are just a bad combination of too easy to kill, not enough damage. I realize it's a hard sweetspot to find, but while there will be some good matchups, a few are just too devastating. (Deathguard perhaps being one of them.)

 

I'd love to hear your gaming experiences with the new codex. Please post up some of your results!

Edited June 20 by Prot

[Tacitus]

9 hours ago, Prot said:

Conclusions thus far:

- The Deathwing Termies are very passible. There is no real tactical advantage here I can think of.  I stupidly made one of the squads have the Plasma Cannon for fluff reasons, but he's died every game. (There's no point in taking that weapon imo without overcharging.) I did not take chain fists as I have found in my other marine armies the regular fist is far better.  But again these guys just needed some sort of tweak to be useful.

All Termies are OK, but not great.  And Deathwing Termies have reverted to the mean with not much over/sideways from normal Termies now. 

The Chain Fists are almost as good as a Power Fist vs Normal and shine against vehicles and Knights.  I wouldn't spam Chainfists and I wouldn't drop them.  What would you have done against Guard wtih a knight/baneblade/whatever?   Ravenwing can turn all melee into an Anti-Vehicle 4+ Deathwing need their Cyclones and Chainfists. 

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- Deathwing Knights. I actually like them. They don't kill much, but by virtue of dying slowly, they do kill stuff... slowly. On a good day, they can be super annoying to kill. The points likely need to come down a bit though.

 

- Belial. Ugh. I keep using him as "Belial" just because it's... Belial! But that sword is SO bad, and his actual rules are deplorable imo. Out of everything that has me scratching my head in the codex, this is honestly one unit that I just put in trash teir and I can't figure out a way to make him work that doesn't have me swapping him out for almost any other Termie HQ.  The Master of the Deathwing really is a disappointment in every way for me. I truly hope you find better mileage.

Deathwing Knights are pretty decent.  They need a rewrite on the Swords or the Maces or both to equalize and differentiate them more. 

 

Belial isn't bad.  He's not knock your socks off, but he's not bad.  Ignore the wound rebounding for now - he's probably not as good as a normal Terminator Captain 75%ish of the time.  So yeah I'd take a Regular  Terminator Captain and name the guy Belial.  Precision to take out the Apothecary, or the opposing Captain isn't bad though.  Especially when he gives it to the entire group.  I charge your Hellblasters.  I assign all attacks to Azrael through Precision.  Azrael eventually gets pulped,   The Hellblasters have to eat the rest of the wounds, and don't have a 4++ anymore to do it with.   Though - and to be fair - I don't think Azrael + Hellblasters is the choice anymore.  You can attach a regular libby to give them 4++, I'm thinking Azrael + ICC is the new hotness - especially if you're not doing Gladius Hellblaster instead of Aggressor Bombs.  At that point you've got ICC doing Strike every round with the SH bonus of Sweep coming from Azrael  - and they give Azrael -1 to get hit. 

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- I want to be wrong about his, and it's speculation but Bladeguard appear far better than Companions. Again, I haven't played companions but keeping a close eye on what Asmodai does with Bladeguard... I don't know what I'm going to do with Companions.

 

- Finally the detachment. I don't think it's as bad as people are making it out to be. The true gems I use most games are: T1 Deepstrike ability and some of the strats can be game changing. The Vowed objective strat allowing re-roll all wounds is impressive when you're lower level strength units with decent AP are hitting a very tough target. 

 

I actually really like the 'feel' of the detachment, where it falls short is in the Deathwing termie design. The fact many characters have the "Deathwing" keyword means you can 'cheat' and get the Deathwing key word in many areas of your army I don't think you would expect it to be. That being said, I still feel like the regular deathwing are just a bad combination of too easy to kill, not enough damage. I realize it's a hard sweetspot to find, but while there will be some good matchups, a few are just too devastating. (Deathguard perhaps being one of them.)

 

I'd love to hear your gaming experiences with the new codex. Please post up some of your results!

BGV and ICC are roughly equal - but they're coming from opposite directions.  Azrael gets less from BGV than he does from ICC because he duplicates more of BGV than ICC.  Same with a generic Libby.  They make their bodyguards 4++ which doesn't do much for the already 4++ BGV.  But it does wonders for the ICC who are not 4++ but -1 to get hit. 

 

How often did you NEED the T1 Deep Strike ability, and why?

 

And yes making Hellblasters Deathwing because they're being led by Azrael is just as silly/bad as making The Lion NOT Deathwing strat eligible. 

[Prot]

So this weekend I had one of the closest games I have had with the Dark Angels.

 

My list was based on the Inner Circle task force:

 

- Termie Capt.

- Azrael + 6 Inner Circle dudes.

-Asmodai + Assault Int.

- Apothecary + Hellblasters x5

- Termie Libby.

- 2 x squads of 5 Knights

- 1 x 5 Deathwing

- Lancer tank

- Repulser

- 2 squads of Scouts

 

I might be missing something.... but the Orks I was playing against were pretty tightly tuned up. Ghaz and Mega Boyz, Battlewagon loaded with Fist boyz. Copters, Truck with Boyz, the Beast riding dudes, with that Character (nasty character, I always forget his name, but he's got T10, 2+/4++ and 4 fnp).

 

We played Dawn of War deployment and I think Hidden Supplies. And the Primary was the one capped at hold one/ hold two.

 

I ended up going first, which normally I never want to do. However, once I saw the plethora of Orks on the other side, maybe it was for the best....

 

A few quick pics:

 

Above: Bottom of T2. Orks Wagh. I use every strat ever written for marines to stay alive. 

 

The middle was something I pushed for early. Deathwing hang in there, and a T1 deep strike allowed me to score early, and I have a narrow lead.

 

 

Above: on my right flank I put a lot of pressure on Asmodai and the Assault Int. They eventually collapsed. But did get me some points.

 

By about mid game we were pretty much tied in points. The big hold off I had was with the two squads of Deathwing. This bought my tanks time to shoot more, but he had a lot of reserves coming in.

 

 

Above. This is a key moment. The Libby had an enhancement that allowed me to pile in and consolidate an extra 3". This was huge because the 3 Nob Bikers are about to die above, (I proxied this squad as Sword Deathwing Knights.) After this assault finished I ended up Consolidating 6" right into his nasty character that rides the beast thing. I knew he had lance or a similar rule that allowed him to get +1 to wound on the charge, and I wanted to remove that advantage as well as keep him off this objective. (This happens off screen to the left.)

 

It was a calculated risk but it paid off. Over 3 assault phases we went back and forth, until my Knights retreated (one mode left) and I shot the bugger to death.

 

 

Above: The Bladeguard are proxied as Inner Circle Companions with Azrael. I chose Ghaz as my Oath target, and we are on my Vow'd objective. He's also got 2-3 beastriders left. I finally shot out the Mega armourned nobs with Ghaz, and had to put 5 wounds on Makari before he failed his 2 + invuln! Ghaz would kill 3 Companions which didn't do much to Ghaz, but eventually Azrael killed Ghaz to the wound.

 

 

Above: From the Ork side of the table. You can see I've managed to barely survive enough to keep him from truly getting beyond the halfway point of the table. Barely, but the DA are holding in there by a thread. Right side you can see that Termie  Libby going into the Beast character.  Meanwhile The Termie Capt Knights gets stuck forever on a bloody Trukk and just couldn't kill it. lol

 

With Ghaz down, the beasts fell soon after. This gave me a big advantage points wise as his home objective was only held by a thin line of Grots. He owned his left side, but I now owned Mid, and his right flank was getting perilously thin.

 

Now at Turn 4 the points tilted hard in favour of the DA. We callled it at bottom of 4 in a misleading lead for the DA.

 

It was a tight game, and I really didn't think I could win this one until Ghaz fell. I think handcuffing his Beast Character was huge. He just couldn't dictate the objectives after that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tacitus]

Did you get any play out of Asmodai Battle-Shocking anything?  His +1CP rule is "wasted" in an army with Azrael, but since Character spreads to the unit, you might get enough quantity out of Asmodai to make it work a little. 

 

Do you think he would have been better with Bladeguard?  Another Quality vs Quantity question.

 

How do you think some Black Knights would have done?  Especially if you could have gotten a good sized brick - 9 plasma talons to shoot before charging with Anti-Infantry and Anti-Monster? 

 

What did the scouts do?  I can't really get into a groove with them - they sound great but when I try and theory them out they're a lot like the company heroes squad - a little too bi-polar to figure out what to do with them. 

[Prot]

8 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Did you get any play out of Asmodai Battle-Shocking anything?  His +1CP rule is "wasted" in an army with Azrael, but since Character spreads to the unit, you might get enough quantity out of Asmodai to make it work a little. 

 

Do you think he would have been better with Bladeguard?  Another Quality vs Quantity question.

 

Great questions. I keep forgetting about Asmodai's ability. I also forget that it extends to the squad. That said I keep forgetting because of what you said... Azrael gets me the +1 CP, and when I do remember that the ability would kick in, I'm not in range of anything that matters.

 

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How do you think some Black Knights would have done?  Especially if you could have gotten a good sized brick - 9 plasma talons to shoot before charging with Anti-Infantry and Anti-Monster? 

 

What did the scouts do?  I can't really get into a groove with them - they sound great but when I try and theory them out they're a lot like the company heroes squad - a little too bi-polar to figure out what to do with them. 

 

I always think of Black Knights. I see them as a great scoring unit, I just don't think they'd work well in this list... hence the scouts.

 

The scouts have been a reluctant addition of mine over the past 2-3 games. They amazing for scoring... boring? Yup. I use shotguns and a missile launcher. That's just my preference, but essentially they are going on and off the table constantly scoring. When my opponent shoots them up a bit it's even better since the foot print is smaller.

 

 

[Tacitus]

16 hours ago, Prot said:

 

Great questions. I keep forgetting about Asmodai's ability. I also forget that it extends to the squad. That said I keep forgetting because of what you said... Azrael gets me the +1 CP, and when I do remember that the ability would kick in, I'm not in range of anything that matters.

 

 

I always think of Black Knights. I see them as a great scoring unit, I just don't think they'd work well in this list... hence the scouts.

 

The scouts have been a reluctant addition of mine over the past 2-3 games. They amazing for scoring... boring? Yup. I use shotguns and a missile launcher. That's just my preference, but essentially they are going on and off the table constantly scoring. When my opponent shoots them up a bit it's even better since the foot print is smaller.

 

 

Actually I was asking how much use you got out of his OTHER ability.  Yeah as long as Azrael is alive and on the table he gets you your +1CP limit per round, but Asmodai also - at the start of the fight phase - forces all CHARACTER units near him to take a Battle-Shock Test at -1.  And sure even Orks are unlikely to fail a lot of Battle-Shock Tests, even at -1, but if you get enough CHARACTER units to roll enough times, its going to happen.  I was just curious how many times if at all that worked out for you, if at all.  I've thought a few times about doing a 1-2 with Asmodai in a unit next to some Reivers in a unit to start forcing Battle-Shock Tests at -2. 

[Prot]

Well my first handful of games with the new codex I did try to use this ability but it's just so situational... it never had a real effect on the game. Not only is the trigger situational, the resulting 'fail' (if it happens) has to be on a unit that 1. was making an impact with OC, or 2. wanted to use a Stratagem.  I just found it to be such a rare pile of circumstances, I stopped paying attention to it.

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Prot said:

Well my first handful of games with the new codex I did try to use this ability but it's just so situational... it never had a real effect on the game. Not only is the trigger situational, the resulting 'fail' (if it happens) has to be on a unit that 1. was making an impact with OC, or 2. wanted to use a Stratagem.  I just found it to be such a rare pile of circumstances, I stopped paying attention to it.

Its definitely more potent in their fight phase than your own.  One of the few times you can Battle-Shock someone on their own turn and get more than end-of-your-turn phase duration out of it. 

[Prot]

39 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Its definitely more potent in their fight phase than your own.  One of the few times you can Battle-Shock someone on their own turn and get more than end-of-your-turn phase duration out of it. 

 

Agreed, but I still feel like the stars really have to align for this to be a factor.

 

Out of all the things I struggle with in the DA codex though, this is not something I'm really trying to make functional.

[Prot]

At this point, maybe for my own sake rather than for anyone else, I'm making a summary post of the good and the bad:

 

For comparison's sake I've had another game with Ultramarines, and this is after a stream of about 8 DA games.

 

The opponent's have been all over the place (including from moderately competitive, to hyper competitive). 

 

Overall my thoughts are a bit all over the place, so I'll go through the obvious stuff I've observed first:

 

- Inner Circle Companions: Just no value in these guys. I've used them in half the games, and Blade Guard the other half. There's so much wrong with these guys it would take too long to type out. The most obvious of which are: Survivability, Cost, requiring an HQ babysitter.

 

- Inner Circle Task Force: This is better than I thought. The Strats are easily as valuable as the detachment rules itself. I'd go so far as to say the value of the Deathwing Knights is actually strongly tied to this detachment. Is this better or as good as the Gladius? I don't think so as it skews heavily to an archetype, which may be by design, but still falls short of the ultimate flexibility and strengthening of all units that Gladius possesses.

 

- Deathwing Knights: I'm not going to worry about point cost here, but obviously since the nerf to the maces they struggle to damage. Combined with AP-1 there isn't a lot of offensive threat here. Your heavily relying on outside elements to make this unit perform at its top level. (IE: characters, detachment, strats) but at this point I believe unless you're gearing a list around them, these are probably left best at 0-1 unit and just use them as a tarpit on an objective. At their current price, I consider them mediocre. A lot of units do what they do for marines without the requirement of support.

 

- Characters: Azrael is unchanged as far as value. I'm okay with the rest of the characters. I just have a belief that most codexes have one 'go to' character and the rest are just very situational. IE: Azrael is the Calgar of Dark Angels. I don't think there's anything big to write home about here. Generic characters still very much challenge named characters here. Outside of that it's worth noting Belial needs a tremendous change. I think the edit required of his dataslate is beyond GW's capability. He'll remain a proxy for something else in any competitive environment. 

 

- The Lion: I still haven't played him. In every game I look for situations for him and I just don't see it. In my opinion he needs too much work. His only value is in assault. Otherwise he's useless. I played him a fair amount before the codex and his two big issues are: his aura's are terrible, and they don't help the legion or army at large. He is a beatstick, but the army has a lot of beatsticks, and after he strikes, that's it. He's very easy to kill for most armies in a single shooting phase. So you're forced to be aggressive with him or he has no use. Any decent opponent will force him to a flank and rip him apart in the shooting phase, perhaps even sacrificing a trading unit. 

 

- Vs. "Marines": Comparison wise I can't say I realize a benefit here over my Ultra's. In fact as time goes on, the 'vanilla' marines, units, and the Gladius in particular continues to be the acid test. A lot of the vanilla units hold value as does the detachments. Something like Calgar and Aggressors is easily as potent as any combo I can come up with in the DA codex. I'd submit there's nothing in the DA codex that causes "FOMO" for other marine players. It will be very interesting to see if this holds true in the future... the big test being perhaps the Blood Angels which always seem to come out on top.

 

We'll see what happens in the future games, but so far that's what I'm experiencing. Again, things change and GW might step in at some point as well. 

 

 

[Tacitus]

16 hours ago, Prot said:

At this point, maybe for my own sake rather than for anyone else, I'm making a summary post of the good and the bad:

 

For comparison's sake I've had another game with Ultramarines, and this is after a stream of about 8 DA games.

 

The opponent's have been all over the place (including from moderately competitive, to hyper competitive). 

 

Overall my thoughts are a bit all over the place, so I'll go through the obvious stuff I've observed first:

 

- Inner Circle Companions: Just no value in these guys. I've used them in half the games, and Blade Guard the other half. There's so much wrong with these guys it would take too long to type out. The most obvious of which are: Survivability, Cost, requiring an HQ babysitter.

 

- Inner Circle Task Force: This is better than I thought. The Strats are easily as valuable as the detachment rules itself. I'd go so far as to say the value of the Deathwing Knights is actually strongly tied to this detachment. Is this better or as good as the Gladius? I don't think so as it skews heavily to an archetype, which may be by design, but still falls short of the ultimate flexibility and strengthening of all units that Gladius possesses.

 

- Deathwing Knights: I'm not going to worry about point cost here, but obviously since the nerf to the maces they struggle to damage. Combined with AP-1 there isn't a lot of offensive threat here. Your heavily relying on outside elements to make this unit perform at its top level. (IE: characters, detachment, strats) but at this point I believe unless you're gearing a list around them, these are probably left best at 0-1 unit and just use them as a tarpit on an objective. At their current price, I consider them mediocre. A lot of units do what they do for marines without the requirement of support.

 

- Characters: Azrael is unchanged as far as value. I'm okay with the rest of the characters. I just have a belief that most codexes have one 'go to' character and the rest are just very situational. IE: Azrael is the Calgar of Dark Angels. I don't think there's anything big to write home about here. Generic characters still very much challenge named characters here. Outside of that it's worth noting Belial needs a tremendous change. I think the edit required of his dataslate is beyond GW's capability. He'll remain a proxy for something else in any competitive environment. 

 

- The Lion: I still haven't played him. In every game I look for situations for him and I just don't see it. In my opinion he needs too much work. His only value is in assault. Otherwise he's useless. I played him a fair amount before the codex and his two big issues are: his aura's are terrible, and they don't help the legion or army at large. He is a beatstick, but the army has a lot of beatsticks, and after he strikes, that's it. He's very easy to kill for most armies in a single shooting phase. So you're forced to be aggressive with him or he has no use. Any decent opponent will force him to a flank and rip him apart in the shooting phase, perhaps even sacrificing a trading unit. 

 

- Vs. "Marines": Comparison wise I can't say I realize a benefit here over my Ultra's. In fact as time goes on, the 'vanilla' marines, units, and the Gladius in particular continues to be the acid test. A lot of the vanilla units hold value as does the detachments. Something like Calgar and Aggressors is easily as potent as any combo I can come up with in the DA codex. I'd submit there's nothing in the DA codex that causes "FOMO" for other marine players. It will be very interesting to see if this holds true in the future... the big test being perhaps the Blood Angels which always seem to come out on top.

 

We'll see what happens in the future games, but so far that's what I'm experiencing. Again, things change and GW might step in at some point as well. 

 

 

See that's weird to me because I've always looked at ICC as the flipside of a BGV coin.   In both cases I'm looking to support them with characters and strats, the difference is which characters and strats.  Stick Azrael in ICC instead of BGV because there's no need to double up on the 4++.  Stick Tigurius in with the BGV to give then a -1 to get with their already existing 4++. 

 

And I look at Deathwing Knights - Yeah they're somewhat toothless, but they're HINTS on steroids.  2+/4++ and (almost) always D-1 like a Redemptor.  But that could also be Fantasy nostalgia from tarpitting units on a grail reliquae while the Grail Knights flank charge.   I can see 1 unit, I can even see two units of "1 of each" to tarpit while the Anti-Evertyhing 4+ Blackknights make the flank charges over and over.   Which again makes it pretty much criminal that DA didn't get a Combi-Wing det for Deathwing and Ravenwing to work together.   Unless you use Gladius.  Which appears to be turning into a pet peeve of mine. 

 

As for characters I'm really vibing to Asmodai.  I'm not sure what GW was smoking when they said to attach him to Inner Circle Companions, but I'm guessing it was just their marketing department trying to hype the new sculpt and the new unit for an upsell. I am thinking about collecting the backmounted Stormshields from the BGV kit to mount on the back of Inner Circle Companions so they'd use the ICC look, but the BGV rules and have that extremely obvious by WYSIWYG.  I might make a second set to follow the Lion around - I'm still mulling that one,  Its more fluffy-ish, but Assault Terminators also fit pretty well there which brings me to the Inner Circle Task Force:

 

The Det isn't great,  Its not really bad.  The weird thing is it somewhat opens up units that are otherwise not great into potentially good.  Again mulling this one, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to end up with 10 Deathwing Vanguard Vets and/or (if they ever release the upsized version) a bunch of Lightning Claw Terminators.  Vowed Objective + Heriloom or Lightning Claws works together pretty well.   40 S5 -1 D1 +1 to Wound Jumping/Flying attacks (plus 10 Melta pistols for the T10+ vehicles) or 50 S5 -2 D1 +1 to Rerolled Wounds isn't shabby.  And since you can name a new Vowed Objective, and new OOM Target every battleround the edge may go to the Jumping Vets - but Consolidate 6" Ginsu Claws can make up some of that ground.  When the Biggernator sculpts finally release. 

[Prot]

I guess as far as ICC, I just expected something a little spicier. At the very, very least those swords need AP-2. This makes zero sense to me. They don't have survivability, nor do they hit that hard. In fact after my last game I ran just little tests of ICC output vs. Deathwing output. 9 times out of 10 I'd go with the Termies. Especially while the AP on the ICC is so lethargic for master swordsmen.  In my games I can say when a marine player throws down Armour of Contempt, the only thing you have to lean on is survival which isn't good, even with Azrael. I just think there's a lot that needs fixing with ICC.

 

I was thinking the same thing though with he BGV. I'm thinking I'll just save some of the single arm stuff to make sure there is either a free arm for a shield OR the backpack shield build. My thinking is when it comes to competitive play the ICC will largely be out of the list, but the models are awesome.

 

The Knights are toothless, but the detachment makes them playable. This is why I compared this to my "Canoptek Court" necrons. It takes an iconic unit that's not that great, and makes it playable. 

 

As a side note, I still may do a Redemptor/Brutalis test instead of DW Knights. I got counter charged in a game this week vs marines. I thought I could kill what I needed to, but failed, and was stuck in. The marine player then counter charged his Brutalis and wiped all but one of the squad.... it was Brutal. (pun intended). The only saving grace was saving half of the mortal wounds on the charge thanks to the watcher.

 

Anyway.... Asmodai. Yea, James Workshop must have been fairly intoxicated when selling us on the idea of Asmodai with ICC. Here's the thing... I don't think we NEED Asmodai. The overlap of "good" to "great" close combat is oozing from the detachment. However I have found real value in him. In fact my last 3 games I've run him with just vanilla Assault Intercessors! I throw them up a flank and they pick up what I call a "B" level target... something that is supporting the opponent, and most likely will never see "Oath" applied to it. Asmodai (cheap) with Assault Intercessors (super cheap) is disposable, but can accomplish some scary things with all the re-rolls. 

 

I've played Asmodai mostly with the BGV and it's another level for them. This is where I lose faith in the ICC. Azrael + ICC is nowhere near as potent, or survivable as Asmodai + BGV. Plus I can put Azrael with Hellblasters and watch them go brrrrrr for a good 2-3 turns before taking any real losses. 

 

That's enough rambling from me. I'm still experimenting and I have another game tonight. No idea what I'm playing but I'm trying to make my list a little more competitive. The last win vs. Orks I think was just extremely lucky. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, Prot said:

I was thinking the same thing though with he BGV. I'm thinking I'll just save some of the single arm stuff to make sure there is either a free arm for a shield OR the backpack shield build. My thinking is when it comes to competitive play the ICC will largely be out of the list, but the models are awesome.

 

I found a bit on a 3D Printing site I'm thinking of printing for the back mounted shield... 

[Prot]

That's a cool idea. I'd love to see how it turns out.

 

So I had another game, and it happened to be against a nasty Ork list again. (pretty much Sean Nayden's from LVO).

 

This time I did not get first turn... and wow did I get spanked. There was one big difference in my army, I tried using the Lion. It really didn't work... I still didn't find him remotely useful. But in part, I take responsibility for misplaying him.

 

This game I decided to deep strike him. That was a huge mistake. In T1 (Orks went first) there was no where to put him. A zillion orks and Ghaz with the larger beast models and mobs pretty much consumed 60% of the table. In hindsight, I should have just put him on the table ( as I normally would) and just let him make a stand in the middle objective. 

 

So I was pinned early and the Terminator heavy build doesn't do enough here. The shooting I have is secondary and this reinforces to me that Space Marines still largely live and die on the shooting and if anything the termies are probably best used sparingly and I know this isn't a surprise to anyone, but with the Inner circle detachment, I still think this is where they operate best.

 

In the end I did get Ghaz down at mid table but I lost so much by Turn 3 only the Lion and 5 Termies where untouched where I lost Azrael and Hellblasters, most of my marine bodies, and my bigger tanks/dread were pinned and I was unable to score. I could never take an objective for longer than my turn. There was just far too many Orks, and claws. The Whag turn itself is so punishing to Termies that the -1 damage just seems useless because you're drowning in hits.

 

I would say I even felt frustration with the normal Termies. A 5 man unit with with Cyclone firing a 2D6 frag missile getting boxcars on a 20 man boy unit could only get about 3-4 kills. (He had the Doc in the list... so 5+ followed by a 5++ FNP). So hard to kill anything even with Oath on it. Wounding on 5's with zero AP against an army so numerous is just painful.

 

Highlight moment: Finally Asmodai with Bladeguard (Probably one of the best units repeatedly in my lists) went head to head with Ghaz!! Guess what happened? Ghaz died, but played "Fight on Death" and killed 3 Bladeguard before gasping his last breath! But wait a second.... my opponent and I realized I actually had a moment to use Asmodai's special rule!!!! So he graciously let us back up the phase a bit (I think he was as curious as me since this has never worked yet...) So Ghaz is dead, and Asmodai forces a Battle Shock test at -1.... Ghaz fails! Which means he can't play fight on Death, and I get to put my 3 BGV back!!! Finally it came into effect. A rare, cool moment in an otherwise slaughterfest of a game.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I think the lack of killing factor in this army is weighing heavily on its ability to win. The downside of this is the more I try to add 'potency' to the army, the less it looks like Deathwing, and the more I'm tempted to just go back to the Marine codex.

 

Inner Circle Detachment continues to be something I try to make work (In my mind I see no point in using this codex at all if I don't.) The IC Detachment does have fun tricks, but I am realizing it's based on units that dilute efficiency in a codex that's already full of low impact models.

 

The Lion had a tough outing.  At 350 he's still hard to see value in especially if you want to use Deathwing heavily. If I would have played him normally, I predict he would have wacked a unit then died like normal. I mean a mountain of fists is just asking too much of Dad's shield. In this game I made the mistake of putting him reserves, and then was forced into a bad spot, and he simply avoided the lion. Again, I take responsibility for this misplay, but I really would have liked 250 points of shooting. Most games people just run from him or pop him after he's exposed.

 

The best units continue to be largely generic: Lancer Tank, Asmodai + BGV, Ballistus (cheap), and to a lesser degree: Az and Hellblasters. They are good, but you definitely pay for them. In this game I lost them all in one assault from fist boyz in a battle wagon. (He made a very long charge, and I never had a chance.) I'm thinking of going back to 10 Hellbasters with Az again (old school.)

 

 

[ashc]

This is a great thread, actual perspective from games as opposed to loose conjecture and I've been avidly lurking and reading and decided to throw my two pennies in.

 

In short, I'm in complete agreement with your findings so far Prot - you've highlighted the weaknesses in the codex well, and the truth is many of the unique dark angels units just don't cut it rules-wise at their current points costs or possibly even at all with a future price cut.

 

The absolute best way to field ICC is Azrael, they need both the 4++ and the additional sustained hits but they are well overpriced when compared to similar units (especially BGV). Also, you are taking Azrael to try and improve a below par unit, where you could field him in something better like Hellblasters.

 

Deathwing Knights seem to be incredibly tough and to stick around but achieve little else; I think the swords pip the maces now due to more attacks to push through chip damage but you have nothing in your arsenal to up their damage particularly. Deathwing Terminators suffer similarly, but at least an outpouring of firepower with 10 in a squad feel impactful; I'm trying them with an Ancient with Deathwing Assault to DS turn 1 very close and pour firepower into an OC target and to then hang around just being a pain in the backside to my opponent; the Ancient at least provides some bonuses to killing the enemy as your terminators inevitably die.

 

Belial is terrible, even at ten points less than the generic terminator captain he is overpriced, precision on his unit achieved little when what you desperately need is to improve the damage output on terminators and unfortunately none of the Dark Angels detachments provide that in enough ways for terminators - that's pretty bad considering they should be the terminator detachment.

 

I actually think Asmodai is one of the more solid units in the book - better melee profile than a standard chaplain, I've initially tried him with the cheaper assault intercessors for the full hit and wound rerolls at +1 on an objective with the ICTF which is great until they start taking hits so I'm looking at trying out the BGVs like your setup.

 

The Unforgiven Detachment rules are terrible, I have little else to say on them. The Inner Circle Task Force is your best way to currently run Dark Angels without just playing Gladius or Ironstorm with Azrael and Asmodai, but it's not to be run as the all-terminators detachment; those units are just not good enough and don't have enough support pieces to help them (something to give them lethal hits or devastating wounds would be a start). You need the characters to be able to give better rules and the Deathwing Keyword out to other units, and half the enhancements aren't any good - and this is better than running Unforgiven!

 

 

Edited March 18 by ashc

[Prot]

Well said. I think our experiences line up quite a bit. 
 

For me it’s not about being negative or positive. I’m just putting my experiences up here. I feel like the negativities are real. I was just in my old stomping grounds the Black Templar forum and there’s a lot of fear of a similar treatment in there. 
 

After my last game I was seriously considering ditching most of the unique units and the detachment. I ended up watching a Wargames Live YouTube GT game featuring a 4-0 DA player vs dark Eldar so I had to check it out. Honestly I don’t know how the guy was 4-0. He  must be a phenomenal player… he ended up getting pretty badly beat by the DE. His list was a Gladius with some DW knights. Not a lot of DA units. 
 

I think as the numbers come in DA will potentially actually do worse than pre codex. There are largely dataslate nerfs and the detachments since the codex, plus the introduction of ICC which I think we can all agree are horrid. 
 

overall I try to stay neutral. I’m still trying different things but as time goes in I’m seeing just vanilla marine units creep back into my lists. 

[NTaW]

9 hours ago, Prot said:

A 5 man unit with with Cyclone firing a 2D6 frag missile getting boxcars on a 20 man boy unit could only get about 3-4 kills. (He had the Doc in the list... so 5+ followed by a 5++ FNP). So hard to kill anything even with Oath on it. Wounding on 5's with zero AP against an army so numerous is just painful.

 

Oof. That seems awfully tough for Orks, though character support is supposed to do something good I suppose. I hope my CMLs have better luck in my games; three of them and a Land Raider is all I have for support of my Terminators unless I bump up to 2k and play Legends sheets to add some Mortis Dreadnoughts.

[ashc]

Yes, sorry if I came across as overall negatively - from a genuine perspective I think Azrael and Asmodai are great, Inner Circle Task Force has playability although not in the ways that people may want it to, and I also think the same of Company of Hunters although I've not run it (there has to be something in being able to run 6 Outriders, a command squad and an ATV in one unit with that detachment's rules, right?)

 

I'm really interested in seeing how future codexes roll out at this point - they seem to be overcorrecting from perceived issues from the index period, where it turned out those rules weren't nearly as obnoxious as they seemed to believe. Or are we genuinely looking at something like the opposite of the dreaded edition codex creep?

 

Space Marine Codexes walk a difficult tightrope now, with being able to field the core codex detachments if you wish and three of them being incredibly good; future ones need to be pitched at about that level with a twist on the chapter theme, without being outright better or worse.

[Tacitus]

15 hours ago, Prot said:

That's a cool idea. I'd love to see how it turns out.

 

So I had another game, and it happened to be against a nasty Ork list again. (pretty much Sean Nayden's from LVO).

 

This time I did not get first turn... and wow did I get spanked. There was one big difference in my army, I tried using the Lion. It really didn't work... I still didn't find him remotely useful. But in part, I take responsibility for misplaying him.

 

This game I decided to deep strike him. That was a huge mistake. In T1 (Orks went first) there was no where to put him. A zillion orks and Ghaz with the larger beast models and mobs pretty much consumed 60% of the table. In hindsight, I should have just put him on the table ( as I normally would) and just let him make a stand in the middle objective. 

 

So I was pinned early and the Terminator heavy build doesn't do enough here. The shooting I have is secondary and this reinforces to me that Space Marines still largely live and die on the shooting and if anything the termies are probably best used sparingly and I know this isn't a surprise to anyone, but with the Inner circle detachment, I still think this is where they operate best.

 

In the end I did get Ghaz down at mid table but I lost so much by Turn 3 only the Lion and 5 Termies where untouched where I lost Azrael and Hellblasters, most of my marine bodies, and my bigger tanks/dread were pinned and I was unable to score. I could never take an objective for longer than my turn. There was just far too many Orks, and claws. The Whag turn itself is so punishing to Termies that the -1 damage just seems useless because you're drowning in hits.

 

I would say I even felt frustration with the normal Termies. A 5 man unit with with Cyclone firing a 2D6 frag missile getting boxcars on a 20 man boy unit could only get about 3-4 kills. (He had the Doc in the list... so 5+ followed by a 5++ FNP). So hard to kill anything even with Oath on it. Wounding on 5's with zero AP against an army so numerous is just painful.

 

Highlight moment: Finally Asmodai with Bladeguard (Probably one of the best units repeatedly in my lists) went head to head with Ghaz!! Guess what happened? Ghaz died, but played "Fight on Death" and killed 3 Bladeguard before gasping his last breath! But wait a second.... my opponent and I realized I actually had a moment to use Asmodai's special rule!!!! So he graciously let us back up the phase a bit (I think he was as curious as me since this has never worked yet...) So Ghaz is dead, and Asmodai forces a Battle Shock test at -1.... Ghaz fails! Which means he can't play fight on Death, and I get to put my 3 BGV back!!! Finally it came into effect. A rare, cool moment in an otherwise slaughterfest of a game.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I think the lack of killing factor in this army is weighing heavily on its ability to win. The downside of this is the more I try to add 'potency' to the army, the less it looks like Deathwing, and the more I'm tempted to just go back to the Marine codex.

 

Inner Circle Detachment continues to be something I try to make work (In my mind I see no point in using this codex at all if I don't.) The IC Detachment does have fun tricks, but I am realizing it's based on units that dilute efficiency in a codex that's already full of low impact models.

 

The Lion had a tough outing.  At 350 he's still hard to see value in especially if you want to use Deathwing heavily. If I would have played him normally, I predict he would have wacked a unit then died like normal. I mean a mountain of fists is just asking too much of Dad's shield. In this game I made the mistake of putting him reserves, and then was forced into a bad spot, and he simply avoided the lion. Again, I take responsibility for this misplay, but I really would have liked 250 points of shooting. Most games people just run from him or pop him after he's exposed.

 

The best units continue to be largely generic: Lancer Tank, Asmodai + BGV, Ballistus (cheap), and to a lesser degree: Az and Hellblasters. They are good, but you definitely pay for them. In this game I lost them all in one assault from fist boyz in a battle wagon. (He made a very long charge, and I never had a chance.) I'm thinking of going back to 10 Hellbasters with Az again (old school.)

 

 

The biggest problem with playing the Lion in a DA specific det is that he's not a DA.  Inner Circle Det?  Not Deathwing.  The Hunters Det?  Not Ravenwing.  He can't use 5 out of 6 Stratagems built for the people genetically predisposed to the very stratagems he exemplifies.   The second problem is he's only got maybe two roles:  Distratction Carnifex or Hammer to someone else's Anvil. 

 

The problem with Shootinators isn't obvious I think, because it isn't a "first order" operation.  T5, 2+/4++ is better than T6 3+/Nada and  3+D6 is better that 2/4-if-in-12 so yea a points diff is supported.  But the real trip-up is the Lieutenant(in this case Biologis).  The Aggressor Bomb works because you get to stack SH1, LH, and Exploding 5's instead of 6's.   Even if you did it with Terminators you're missing LH from half your hits.   Hell its another shortfall for the flamer Aggressors too.  The "raison d'etre" for flamer Aggressors is they auto-hit.  When you make the Aggressor bomb 1/3 of your shots miss BUT you get 1/3 of your shots generating 2 hits.  AND you get 1/3 of your hits Auto-wounding.  Stacking Lethal and Sustained at the same rate you miss is huge.   Without the Lieutenant the Shootinators can't stack it.  They end up about even with the Flamagressors and they've been behind the Boltagressors for a while now.   And both have the power fists for cleanup on a muffed dice roll, or extremely large chaff unit.   Give Terminators a Lieutenant with LH and they'd get a whole lot closer.   I really don't know what they were thinking making a Gravis Biologis while trying to push the Terminator Edition. 

 

As for Asmodai, I think he works more often than you think.  Ghaz is a 6+ -that's a 72% probability.  At -1 he needs a 7+ and that's a 58%.  He wins only a little more than he loses when at -1.   Most of the Ork Characters are actually 7+ native, 8+  They lose more than win at about 41%  -  the problem is Battleshock is so often overlooked because 90% of the time it only takes effect for the end of your turn and goes away at the beginning of their turn.   Asmodai - and this is why its important to remember him if you use him - is one of the sneaky ones that can do battleshock people on your opponent's turn.  Imagine Ghaz is battleshocked in his fight phase - he's now battleshocked for your entire turn.   Imagine he battleshocks the Nob leading 20 Boys on the objective.  His whole unit is battleshocked for the fight phase and end of his turn, AND your turn. 

 

As an over-all I think the problem is Deathwing and Ravenwing are designed as a pair, but the Dets split them out.  The terminators are supposed to be the tarpit anvil, and the Ravenwing the rear charging hammer.  I'm trying to build that in Gladius right now.   They don't have a Lethal Hits Lieutenant either but they DO have Hazardous Rapid Fire 1 Plas, and a medic.  9 Guys, 27 shots,  9 misses, 9 exploding 5's, S8 -3 D2 and then you get to charge with Anti-Everything 4+.   The bikes herd the other guy into the Terminators who giggle at the tickle, before the bikes squish the grapes.   

 

Also I think the Vowed Objective thing can turn the meta on it's head.  10 Lightningators is pretty meh.  Don't get me wrong, everyone gets a 4++ is nice for the Lightningnators, but they're still "not quite good".  People are still likely to take a Hammernator first.  +1 wound, and of course By Grobthar's Hammer they've got a hammer.   And the hammer hurts.  30 hammers hurt a lot.  50 Lightning Claws with S5 -2 D1 +1 to rerollable wounds is a frog in a blender.   40 S5 -1 D1 +1 to wound Heirloom weapons and 10 Melta Pistols is a little bit of both with enough movement to go from Vowed Objective to Vowed Objective almost every turn. 

[ashc]

Absolutely spot on about the lack of Biologis/Lt option to up the lethality of terminators; you rely on Vowed Objective to do it, although I'm also currently trying out the Ancient - great when they take a casualty but it's a shame that means no benefit on a T1 deepstrike like the Biologis does for Aggressors. As said, not enough tools to really support terminators in either codex: sm or da's to get the damage comparable to what other Codexes can do so instead you see if you can tough it out and grind your opponents units down with attrition.

 

I think the Ravenwing come out really well from the codex, knights and command look good on paper but I've not really started my Ravenwing journey quite yet.

Edited March 19 by ashc

[Tacitus]

9 hours ago, ashc said:

Yes, sorry if I came across as overall negatively - from a genuine perspective I think Azrael and Asmodai are great, Inner Circle Task Force has playability although not in the ways that people may want it to, and I also think the same of Company of Hunters although I've not run it (there has to be something in being able to run 6 Outriders, a command squad and an ATV in one unit with that detachment's rules, right?)

 

I'm really interested in seeing how future codexes roll out at this point - they seem to be overcorrecting from perceived issues from the index period, where it turned out those rules weren't nearly as obnoxious as they seemed to believe. Or are we genuinely looking at something like the opposite of the dreaded edition codex creep?

 

Space Marine Codexes walk a difficult tightrope now, with being able to field the core codex detachments if you wish and three of them being incredibly good; future ones need to be pitched at about that level with a twist on the chapter theme, without being outright better or worse.

Actually I'm looking more at the Ravenwing Command Squad attacked to 6 Black Knights.  9 Plasma Talons, -> HAZARDOUS, -> MEDIC! and a 5++ Outriders don't get.  Especially with the ATV not being higher T, or resurrectable. 

 

I see what they were doing with the DWK - Swords have lower damage than the maces, but they dropped the maces to D2, so the swords went to D1.  Keep the maces at D3, and the swords become basically MC Power Weapons with D2 (like BGV etc have) and DWK are far closer to "viable".  On the flip side, they're also trying to reduce lethality which is why TH/SS is D2.  Probably should have done the same with the Heirloom weapons on VV.  I don't D2 instead of D1 really matters when on the "elite" units like Lightning Claw Terminators and Vanguard Vets since wounds don't carry over.  The elite melee units should be able to whack an MEQ per attack.  That's sort of what makes them elite.  The meat and potatoes guys with an Astartes Chainsword needing two attacks to whack an MEQ also makes some sense.  Its why they're not "elite" instead of meat and potatoes. 

 

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, ashc said:

Absolutely spot on about the lack of Biologis/Lt option to up the lethality of terminators; you rely on Vowed Objective to do it, although I'm also currently trying out the Ancient - great when they take a casualty but it's a shame that means no benefit on a T1 deepstrike like the Biologis does for Aggressors. As said, not enough tools to really support terminators in either codex: sm or da's to get the damage comparable to what other Codexes can do so instead you see if you can tough it out and grind your opponents units down with attrition.

 

I think the Ravenwing come out really well from the codex, knights and command look good on paper but I've not really started my Ravenwing journey quite yet.

I think that's a recurring theme this edition.  They finally made thematic Dets, right after they squatted all the thematic HQ's you need to make the thematic Dets work.   We've now got Bikes, Phobos, Tacticus, Terminator, and Gravis for thematic "armor" types.  Bikes aren't an armor but you get the idea.  There should be Cap/Chap/Libby and LT in every armor type.  I wish GW would really just steal my idea and run with it:  Create a Chapter Upgrade sprue for characters.  You buy the XYZ armor kit (HINTS/Outriders/whatever) you use Chapter Upgrade Sprue Bit 21, 22, and 23 to make a Gravis Libby.  You use Bit 27, 28 and 29 to make a Gravis Chaplain.  Special order the sprue to save shelf space, and voila.  You buy a box of HINTs, make two Rifle Marines to offset the two Heavy Bolter HINTS in case you ever have to decide between HB or Regular Guy, the other three get made into Gravis Chap, Libby, and Lieutenant as we already have a Captain Blister.  Buy an Ourider box, make one a Captain with arm and weapon bits 11, 12, and 13, one a libby, and one a lieutenant as we already have a Chaplain.

 

And yeah, even a cursory look at DW vs RW makes me think RW made out like bandits.

 

9 guys, Mv12 T5, W4, 3+/5++ resurrectables,  OC2 base, 3 with the command squad, 2/3 shot Plas-dakka everywhere, Anti-everything 4+ on the charge

for 55 points less than:

10 guys Mv 5, T5, W3, 2+/4++ OC 1 based, 2 if you use the Ancient, 2/4 bolter shots, and a power fist.

 

[ashc]

23 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Actually I'm looking more at the Ravenwing Command Squad attacked to 6 Black Knights.  9 Plasma Talons, -> HAZARDOUS, -> MEDIC! and a 5++ Outriders don't get.  Especially with the ATV not being higher T, or resurrectable. 

 

I see what they were doing with the DWK - Swords have lower damage than the maces, but they dropped the maces to D2, so the swords went to D1.  Keep the maces at D3, and the swords become basically MC Power Weapons with D2 (like BGV etc have) and DWK are far closer to "viable".  On the flip side, they're also trying to reduce lethality which is why TH/SS is D2.  Probably should have done the same with the Heirloom weapons on VV.  I don't D2 instead of D1 really matters when on the "elite" units like Lightning Claw Terminators and Vanguard Vets since wounds don't carry over.  The elite melee units should be able to whack an MEQ per attack.  That's sort of what makes them elite.  The meat and potatoes guys with an Astartes Chainsword needing two attacks to whack an MEQ also makes some sense.  Its why they're not "elite" instead of meat and potatoes. 

 

Good point on the RWKs - I may have to look at picking some up to try them out soon!

[Prot]

Honestly I'm afraid of trying bike lists. I mean what happened to the DW command squad? New models happened. They got lazy, didn't make a kit/sprue, and yanked the rules.

 

I'm worried when they do revisit Sam and Ravenwing, they do the same thing. Do an upgrade kit for the Outriders, get lazy, cut the RW command squad and we're having the DW conversation all over again.

 

True this may not happen, and this is probably just me personally but I don't want to make those little bike squads all over again, paint them up at the risk of being irrelevant.  GW could have done something really special here with Sam and the bikes, and maybe it's coming... I just don't trust that they won't delete the command squad option again.

 

I have another game coming up (random pairning). I'm ditching the Lion, going to go with a more balanced approach but keep the heavy Knight approach (within reason) and keep the Inner Circle Detachment as it's the only thing that has me really interested at the moment.

[ashc]

I think the Black Knight units have an edition left in them yet - I think I will invest in them for tenth!

 

I don't blame you on dropping Lion, I think he's a massive trap unit. 

 

Inner Circle Task Force are in my eyes the main way to really run mixed force Dark Angels out of the codex detachments as Unforgiven is so poor. I'm not running DW Knights at 2k either, and think the Task Force benefits from non-deathwing units to round it out - scouts do good work.