So how much of a power-up is daemonic ascension?

[Karhedron]

Is daemonic ascension all that it is cracked up to be?

 

The old lore presented it as surrendering a chunk of self-determination for new abilities and a boost to physical stats that took the ascendee beyond ken of mortal powers. The Daemon Primarchs use greater daemons as flunkies and seemed to over-power their loyalist brethren. Fulgrim's contemptuous handling of Guilliman at the battle of Thessala was a classic example of the loyalists no longer being able to compete with their daemonic brothers on an even footing.

 

Then the Siege series came along and firmly shattered that understanding. Dorn beats Daemon Fulgrim, Khan beats Daemon Mortarion, Vulkan beats Daemon Magnus and Sanguinius beats Daemon Angron. Now the first of those match-ups I can understand. Dorn doesn't physically overpower Fulgrim, rather he lures him into a protracted duel only to humiliate him with the realisation that he has led his legion into a trap and the elite of the Emperor's Children have been wiped out while Fulgrim played along. Dorn wounds Fulgrim's pride, something that takes a far greater time to heal than his body and Fulgrim effectively discorporates in a sulk.

 

But the other match-ups and much more direct as the loyalists take on the traitors on their own turf. The Khan out-tanks Mortarion long enough to land a killing blow. Sanguinius out-punches Angron and rips the Butcher's Nails right out of his skull (along with what is left of his brain). Vulkan withstands Magnus's psychic attacks and keeps regenerating despite it being established that psychic powers are about the only thing that can kill Perpetuals.

 

The Arks of Omen series has continued this trend with the Lion dispatching Angron once again (seriously, this guy is starting to suffer from the Worf-effect). That means Angron has now been beaten by Perturabo, Sanguinius and the Lion since he ascended. No wonder he is getting jealous that Khorne is starting to eye-up Kharne.

 

The traitors are starting to look increasingly foolish for selling their souls to Chaos as they don't seem to have gotten a very good price for them. Far from "unlimited power", they seem to have gained wings and a few situational power-ups. Having seen what happened to his brothers, I can't help wondering why Perurabo bothered seeking out ascension for himself after the Scouring. It does not look like it was worth it.

[Noserenda]

Oh yeah its a huge buff to mortals.

Primarchs arent really mortals though are they? Their upper limits are very rarely tested so we dont know exactly what they are, certainly the post heresy book with Corax implies they are much higher than they typically realise.

Equally, is a Daemon Primarch really much more than any other Daemon prince? Im not sure that they are, we typically see them out in the galaxy when their strength is waxing, when they are fully in the favour of their patron gods, and then they lapse back into obscurity again. 

I believe the Daemon Primarchs ultimately sacrifice a lot of their potential when they "ascend" which might also explain why their initial manifestations are seemingly more powerful, still coasting off the remnants of their Primarch physicality and from then on they are just another Daemon prince, albeit one typically high in favour and consummately somewhat more powerful but no more than any other Daemon might be.

Plus, and i cant emphasise this enough, the game stats or some other possible "power hierarchy" chart are irrelevant to the authors writing stories, especially in a series like this. The winner of any fight will be whoever the narrative needs it to be, if the author needs to end a book with say, Khan in a coma and Mortarion banished then thats how it ends.

[ThePenitentOne]

So this is a bit of a hot take, and it's not directed at anyone in  particular, nor is it meant to be an attack at all.

 

Many of the responses so far have been fluff-related and reference BL material.

 

I don't regard BL as fluff. I think most of the writers have never played the game and are only vaguely aware of how armies actually function. Bolter porn is a crime against gaming. I know this isn't a popular opinion- people always point out that rules change from edition to edition, and there's some truth to that, but relative power seems more constant than specific abilities.

 

You can see what daemonic ascension means to a Legionnaire by comparing the Legionnaire datacard to the Possessed data card. We can compare a Daemon Primark to a Daemon Prince the same way. I would expect a Daemon Primarch to combine some aspects of the Daemon Prince profile and some aspects of the Primarch profile. Ideally, you should even be able to intuit which attributes come from which profile. Everything else is artistic license with the potential to harm the game by making people expect what happens in a book to happen on the table, which may lead GW to try and deliver that.

 

When the CSM dex arrives, bespoke Crusade content may provide more insight into Daemonhood by providing a path to ascension.

[AutumnEffect]

Since Daemon Primarchs are the only ones for whom death is a temporary state, they unfortunately have to be the ones who lose. We have a list of predetermined casualties of the Heresy so we're not really allowed any upsets. It's put the writers in a box.

 

Out of all the Primarchs, Daemon or otherwise, I actually think Daemon-Angron would be the easiest to defeat. He's a blunt, insane instrument. Something you point in a general direction and hope for the best. It's hard to have a lot of respect for a creature that can barely string two words together. I appreciate his capacity for violence, but so does an indiscriminate orbital bombardment and that probably will cause less friendly casualties than Daemon-Angron.
Sanguinius was a being apart. He was the chivalric ideal, the Lancelot, as incorruptible as he was peerless in martial prowess. Angron never stood a chance.

[Vassakov]

There's a reason why a "Faustian bargain" isn't something to be aspired to... I think what the Daemon Primarchs lost far outstrips what they gained. 

 

Yes, they may theoretically be immortal, but they are also now creatures of the Warp, unable to truly exist in realspace. They are thralls to their patrons, and not their own true masters. Also, at least two of them (Magnus and Angron) functionally died as part of their ascension which isn't going to have helped matters.

 

The other thing to remember is that 40k is probably closer to a comic book than "serious" literature. Stuff happens because it's cool, and because it'll sell models. There's no grand overarching narrative working to a conclusion with grand character arcs - most of that took place in the Heresy, and everything's been in stasis since. The characters who get to have arcs and development are generally the ones not associated with big model releases and the mythic spectacle of the galaxy at large - its the minor characters, the supporting players or those invented for a novel (who then sometimes get model releases.)

 

On the specific issue of Angron v The Lion in Arks of Omen, Angron is basically a beast at this stage. The Lion kills beasts. Not sure why anyone was surprised by this. Heck, pre-ascension Guilliman went toe-to-toe with Angron and didn't exactly lose, so I think the suggestion that Angron was some kind of unbeatable monster is just... not right.

[crimsondave]

I've thought for years daemonic ascension was overrated.  I also think part of the problem, and Horus pretty much said this, is that the most powerful/capable primarchs stayed loyal.  Magnus would have been the exception but the only way Tzeentch got him to turn was by tricking Russ into splitting him apart and losing the best part of him.

 

All the DPs gained something but they all lost a lot too.  Look back at the HH and it's Perturabo who did the heavy lifting.  The traitors would have gotten nowhere without Perturabo.  He was the only competent one left by the siege of Terra.  Once he got tired of doing ALL the real work and saw Horus was just using him (not to mention losing his mind as well) he gives them all the double middle finger and rolls out.  As a side note, I hope they retcon Perturabo eventually becoming a DP because it makes no effing sense and goes completely against his character.

 

When it comes to Angron, I think some people put too much stock into Corax saying only Sangy could beat DP Angron.  I like Corax, but he didn't know what he was talking about.  I love Angron as a character.  He has one of the best story arcs in the setting.  The poor guy just doesn't have it.  The nails just ruined him.  Even before he ascended he could be manipulated into doing something stupid.  When he ascended he went from a raving lunatic to a mindless attack dog.  Lion vs DP Angron was a mismatch even with Lion old.  That's about as bad a match up as Angron could get.  I think Angron is actually weaker overall after he ascended.

 

Idk if Morty is weaker but I don't think he's any better.  He's tougher and has sorcery as a DP but he also appears to be slower witted and his ability to make good decisions was compromised.  This is evident in Mortis and Godblight.

 

Fulgrim appears to me to have lost way more than he gained.  Idk if Fulgrim is that much more powerful or not as a fighter.  He was pretty darn tough before.  He killed FM before ascension.  Of course, he did get his butt kicked in a scuffle between him and Perturabo pre ascension.  He did clown Guilliman as a DP but RG isn't exactly a top tier fighter among primarchs.  Saying Dorn beat DP Fulgrim is a slight stretch but it can't be denied Dorn hurt him physically and emotionally to the point he got pissy and left so it's a win regardless.  Dorn is tough for sure but  I don't see him on the same level as Sangy, Lion, Russ, Curze, Vulkan, or Khan.  What's for certain is that Fulgrim used to be a great general/tactician pre ascension and now has no self control and is useless as an ally.  I think some people highly overrate DP Fulgrim based on him clowning Guilliman and I think the author of that lore made some statements during an interview about DP Fulgrim being pretty much unbeatable by any loyalist primarch or some such thing.  He doesn't get to make that decision, however as newer lore shows that he certainly is beatable.

 

Magnus is hard to gauge so I won't even venture a guess.  He has lost something for sure but is it due to ascension or losing his best shard?  Idk.

 

Horus is the only one that was for sure more powerful after ascension.  Maybe I'm short selling him but I view him on about the same level as Dorn pre ascension.  Afterwards he's going 1v1 with E.  No comparison.  However, in order for that to happen, it was stated  multiple times he was burning up soon to be totally consumed by the warp.

 

What it all boils down to is Erebus is an a-hole.

[Xenith]

1 hour ago, crimsondave said:

Horus is the only one that was for sure more powerful after ascension

 

Remember that Horus didn't technically become a DP, he just had the powers of the gods in a mortal shell, however didn't fully become a daemon in the way others have. 

 

On paper, the daemon primarchs should have been able to beat the non primarchs, however this is old lore and the new seems to be re-writing it. I have long held the position that the Primarchs are effectively 'daemon princes of the emperor', being not quite mortal and made of warp stuff as they are, and if that is the case, with the Primarchs not really understanding what they are, they thought going to chaos would be a straight upgrade, whereas it was more in fact a sidegrade. 

[Noserenda]

Yeah Horus was never a dp, he was the everchosen.

[Tyriks]

I am not convinced ascension even should be much of a boon. The Chaos gods aren't known for being trustworthy and faithful. Getting someone to such a state of hopelessness and despair that they'd be willing to ascend to daemonhood  only to discover they're no better off for it seems (generally) more in line with a Chaos god's schemes than freely distributing power to people.

[AutumnEffect]

11 hours ago, Tyriks said:

I am not convinced ascension even should be much of a boon. The Chaos gods aren't known for being trustworthy and faithful. Getting someone to such a state of hopelessness and despair that they'd be willing to ascend to daemonhood  only to discover they're no better off for it seems (generally) more in line with a Chaos god's schemes than freely distributing power to people.

The Liber Chaotica books make a pretty valid point though that if the Chaos Gods didn't offer real, tangible rewards then they wouldn't have nearly so many converts.

It feels like it's been a bit downplayed in newer lore, but we also shouldn't forget just how utterly and irrevocably insane the chaos gods are.
You could burn an imperial planet to cinders in the name of your patron and be gifted with a case of permanent and loud flatulence, or maybe a particularly slimy pseudopod sprouting from your scalp.
Meanwhile, another Champion could be an utter failure by any rational metric and be blessed with skin as tough as adamantium or vorpal claws.

[Tyriks]

8 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

The Liber Chaotica books make a pretty valid point though that if the Chaos Gods didn't offer real, tangible rewards then they wouldn't have nearly so many converts.

It feels like it's been a bit downplayed in newer lore, but we also shouldn't forget just how utterly and irrevocably insane the chaos gods are.
You could burn an imperial planet to cinders in the name of your patron and be gifted with a case of permanent and loud flatulence, or maybe a particularly slimy pseudopod sprouting from your scalp.
Meanwhile, another Champion could be an utter failure by any rational metric and be blessed with skin as tough as adamantium or vorpal claws.

They would not need to actually give boons, though, just the appearance of boons. Or temporary boons, or anything like that. I absolutely agree that people need to think they will be "blessed" somehow, but they don't need to actually be blessed to think that.

 

Additionally, many boons might not be things that make you stronger in a fight. Seeing the future seems great, but not if you have uncontrollable visions that overlap with reality while you are fighting. Being a powerful psyker might be hugely desirous even if you can't focus your powers in the midst of combat. Revenge against someone that betrayed you won't make you fight better, but it might be enough to sell your soul. We do see things like mortals becoming Daemon Princes that appear to be a huge step up over their former capabilities, so it is a possibility, but that need not be the norm.

[Karhedron]

On 2/28/2024 at 1:56 PM, crimsondave said:

As a side note, I hope they retcon Perturabo eventually becoming a DP because it makes no effing sense and goes completely against his character.

 

Angron didn't choose to become a DP so maybe Perty will be forced into it one way or another. In Slaves to Darkness, Sa'ra'am implied that Perturabo's soul had been damaged when Fulgrim used part of it to fuel his own ascension. Maybe Perturabo ends up suffering something like the soul-withering that affects the Dark Eldar if they do not feed on others and decides to ascend in order to avoid this fate.

[AutumnEffect]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

Angron didn't choose to become a DP so maybe Perty will be forced into it one way or another. In Slaves to Darkness, Sa'ra'am implied that Perturabo's soul had been damaged when Fulgrim used part of it to fuel his own ascension. Maybe Perturabo ends up suffering something like the soul-withering that affects the Dark Eldar if they do not feed on others and decides to ascend in order to avoid this fate.

 

If we consider Perturabo a 'Champion of Chaos' then he might have no choice but to become a daemon prince.

 

It's said a few times that once you take the first steps on the road of Champion, you cannot turn back. Any attempt to do so, any hesitation or weakness and you are reduced to spawndome.

 

If Perturabo whored himself to Chaos once, for any reason... he's done. They own him. Mortarian is the ur example for primarchs; a creature that hated the warp but wound up corrupted by it because he used it.

Edited February 29 by AutumnEffect