Go To Ground (And other sources of Benefit of Cover) with 3+ Armor

[Tacitus]

Benefit of Cover mentions the rules to get Benefit of Cover from terrain.

Go To Ground just flat gives the Benefit of Cover.

 

Do Marines who Go To Ground (or otherwise get the benefit of Cover from strats/bespokes/whatever get the +1 Armor Save?  I think so, but I also think its going to cause an argument. 

[Lord_Ikka]

The only time units with a 3+ or better armor save don't get the benefit of cover is when the attack has an AP of 0. Otherwise, they get the benefit (+1 to Sv) just like any other unit. 

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

The only time units with a 3+ or better armor save don't get the benefit of cover is when the attack has an AP of 0. Otherwise, they get the benefit (+1 to Sv) just like any other unit. 

Right but if a Tac Squad is in a crater, they don't get it vs AP0 because the rules for Benefit of Cover mentioning terrain says they don't.

 

If they Go To Ground though do they get the Benefit Of Cover vs AP0? 

[TrawlingCleaner]

7 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Right but if a Tac Squad is in a crater, they don't get it vs AP0 because the rules for Benefit of Cover mentioning terrain says they don't.

 

If they Go To Ground though do they get the Benefit Of Cover vs AP0? 

No:

 

 

Or the important bit:

Quote

Models with a Save characteristic of 3+ or better cannot have the Benefit of Cover against attacks with an Armour Penetration characteristic of 0.

 

Terrain, crater, Go to Ground or not models with a 3+ save cannot gain the Benefit of cover vs AP0 weapons

[Tacitus]

That's what I'm talking about:

 

Models can sometimes gaine a measure of protection from terrain features - yadda yadda.  So the rules for Benefit of Cover from terrain specify a 3+ can't vs AP0.

 

But Go to Ground isn't terrain, and specifically says the unit has the benefit of cover. 

[Lord_Ikka]

17 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Right but if a Tac Squad is in a crater, they don't get it vs AP0 because the rules for Benefit of Cover mentioning terrain says they don't.

 

If they Go To Ground though do they get the Benefit Of Cover vs AP0? 

Like @TrawlingCleaner pointed out, Go To Ground or any other rule that gives out the Benefit of Cover ability (like the SM Vanguard Detachment), simply gives out the ability without the need to be in cover due to terrain. Any special rule or ability that mentions Benefit of Cover will abide by the definition given on pg. 44 of the rulebook about how it applies and what it does; there are no differences between getting the Benefit of Cover for being in terrain or from a strat/army rule. 

 

In short, Benefit of Cover does the following, regardless of how a model/unit acquires it- the model/unit gets a +1 to their Sv vs ranged attacks, unless they have a 2+/3+ Sv and the attack has an AP of 0. 

[Lord_Ikka]

Unfortunately, GW did a pretty bad job of writing the core rulebook for 10th in regards to what should be considered "universal rules" like Benefit of Cover or Lone Operative/Steath. By that I mean that the rules are scattered around the book rather than collected together in a cohesive manner.  Just because the Benefit of Cover rule is placed in the Terrain section does not mean that it only effects models that interact with terrain- it is an overall rule that will effect any model that gets Benefit of Cover.

Edited March 1 by Lord_Ikka

[TrawlingCleaner]

You're missing the important bit:

Quote

Models can sometimes gain a measure of protection from terrain features. The rules on pages 45-48 detail the conditions under which a terrain feature confers the Benefit of Cover on a model.

 

13 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

That's what I'm talking about:

 

Models can sometimes gaine a measure of protection from terrain features - yadda yadda.  So the rules for Benefit of Cover from terrain specify a 3+ can't vs AP0.

 

But Go to Ground isn't terrain, and specifically says the unit has the benefit of cover. 

 

The Benefit of Cover is the same from either a Terrain feature or from Go to Ground or one of the many other ways to get the rule. There's no separate Benefit of Cover rule

 

Terrain just gives you different ways to gain the Benefit of Cover and some additional benefits or downsides. For Example, Fual pipes mean that your models get the Benefit of Cover whilst within 3" of the pipes and partitally covered plus your engagement range is extended if an enemy model is near the pipe.

[Lord_Ikka]

In fact, the Rules Commentary specifically calls out Benefit of Cover in regards to it not requiring terrain-

 

Benefit of Cover (when not within terrain): Some rules state that a
model or unit has the Benefit of Cover even when not within terrain.
Such rules apply irrespective of any terrain features that model or
unit may be within or behind. Similarly, if a rule only applies while a
unit has the Benefit of Cover, that rule will apply to any model or unit
under the effects of any rule that gives it the Benefit of Cover (even
when not within terrain).

[Tacitus]

44 minutes ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

You're missing the important bit:

 

 

The Benefit of Cover is the same from either a Terrain feature or from Go to Ground or one of the many other ways to get the rule. There's no separate Benefit of Cover rule

 

Terrain just gives you different ways to gain the Benefit of Cover and some additional benefits or downsides. For Example, Fual pipes mean that your models get the Benefit of Cover whilst within 3" of the pipes and partitally covered plus your engagement range is extended if an enemy model is near the pipe.

Well the rule name IS Benefit of Cover and the rules assume you're getting it from terrain and explain it as such.

Quote

In fact, the Rules Commentary specifically calls out Benefit of Cover in regards to it not requiring terrain-

 

Benefit of Cover (when not within terrain): Some rules state that a
model or unit has the Benefit of Cover even when not within terrain.
Such rules apply irrespective of any terrain features that model or
unit may be within or behind. Similarly, if a rule only applies while a
unit has the Benefit of Cover, that rule will apply to any model or unit
under the effects of any rule that gives it the Benefit of Cover (even
when not within terrain).

That makes my question more likely not less likely Tactical Squad Soandso gets the Benefit of Cover from Go To Ground.

 

Benefit of Cover says the Tac Squad can't get it generally.  Go To Ground says they get it specifically.   "Go To Ground states that a
model or unit has the Benefit of Cover even when not within terrain." 

 

I figure its one of two things:

 

Tac Squad in ruins can't get Benefit of Cover vs AP0 from Terrain - but they do from Go To Ground because Go To Ground trumps the general rule and hands it out without qualifiers.

 

Tac Sqaud in Ruins can't get benefit of Cover in Ruins vs AP0 and does from Go To Ground even though they can't use it to improve their armor save vs AP0 . 

 

[Jolemai]

If a Tactical Squad uses Go To Ground, they receive the Benefit of Cover - that is not in question.

• If the Tactical Squad is then shot by a bolter, they will save on a 3+ as per the rules for Benefit of Cover
• If the Tactical Squad is then shot by a lascannon, they will save on a 5+, as per the rules for Benefit of Cover.

As my fellow Frater and I have explained, there is nothing that stops the second bullet point in the Benefit of Cover rules from being applied. All that Go to Ground does if give the unit access to Benefit of Cover, which then follows the usual rules as there's no modifiers beyond that.

[Xenith]

2 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Models can sometimes gaine a measure of protection from terrain features

 

This bit is only flavour text to contextualise the rule. The actual rule is below, and the 'benefits of cover' allows models not in terrain, to be treated as if they are in terrain, and as such all the rules in 'benefits of cover' apply. So no 2+ saves from AP0.