Sternguard build?

[Helias_Tancred]

If you built a squad of Sternguard at this point in 10th, how would you build them in terms of combi-weapons, or sternguard bolt rifles? My intention is for them to shoot and kill my opponents infantry. From what I've seen of their stats I'm thinking the latter? But I wanted to run it by the rest of you to get some analysis I may be overlooking?

 

Also think it's worth taking one heavy weapon or not? I'm thinking the heavy bolter might be a no-brainer for what I want to use them for?

 

Thanks. 

Edited March 4 by Helias_Tancred

[Tacitus]

I'm not sure I would make Sternguard at this point in 10th.   

 

I mean part of it will depend on what you mean by Infantry.  A wave of grots?  Nope.  A unit of Terminators?  A 10 Man Tactical Squad?  6 Centurion Devs?  Those are wildly different threat bands all within the INFANTRY keyword.   If I'm shooting Custodes?  And I have to use Sternguard?  8 combiweapons and 2 Sternguard Heavy Bolters.  But even picking their best option for the target they aren't the best option.  16 ANTI-INFANTRTY4+ Dev Wounds + 6 Dev Wounds shots,  -  that's about 9 Dev Wounds for 1.5 Dead Custodes Terminators that will FNP that down to .75 dead Terminator plus another half a wound leftover assuming they're the OOM target. 

 

Don't get me wrong Sternguard aren't OTT expensive for what they do, its just that what they do isn't worth an extra cost - especially when the datasheet itself has tradeoffs too.  Intercessors do 90% of what Sternguard do for slightly less.  In exchange for slightly more points, significanly less OC, and a roughly equivalent bespoke you can get Sternguard. The example above does show Sternguard can do something Intercessors can't, but realistically its something few people will ever need done.  D1 Dev Wounds is not the key to Custodes.  It works better against the Cent Devs because they don't have a FNP, but Lascannons work even better because they don't have an invuln.  Terminators have an invuln, but they also only have T5.  Its pretty hard to find a niche for the Sternguard that either needs to exist, or that doesn't have a different unit doing it better.  Even in past editions Sternguard were all about the combiweapon Drop Pod Bomb, and/or the Special Ammunition. 

 

If I were making some for the shelf until 11th?  Id make some of both, and yeah I'd add the Heavy Bolters but not the Pyrecanon.  Its been a long time since Flamers were good, but there's no evidence that's changing any time soon either. 

[Helias_Tancred]

I picked up a box of Sternguard today.

 

I don't play competitively, I play with a limited group of good friends, and my days of walking into a game store and playing Tim the Store Regular's net list army are behind me. That being said I envision my five-man sternguard primarily moving up the board and putting pressure on T4 marine units (and anything weaker). I would avoid putting them up against some of the heavier units you mentioned unless I had no option? My opponents are Ultramarines, Tyranids, Necrons, World Eaters, Custodes, and Dark Angels. No one I play uses centurions, and if I were playing my friend who loves his custodes, my sternguard would not be in my Black Templar list for that fight. Thanks for the feedback, sounds like sternguard bolt rifles are the way to go for what I want. Ditto for the heavy bolter.

 

 

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Helias_Tancred said:

I picked up a box of Sternguard today.

 

I don't play competitively, I play with a limited group of good friends, and my days of walking into a game store and playing Tim the Store Regular's net list army are behind me. That being said I envision my five-man sternguard primarily moving up the board and putting pressure on T4 marine units (and anything weaker). I would avoid putting them up against some of the heavier units you mentioned unless I had no option? My opponents are Ultramarines, Tyranids, Necrons, World Eaters, Custodes, and Dark Angels. No one I play uses centurions, and if I were playing my friend who loves his custodes, my sternguard would not be in my Black Templar list for that fight. Thanks for the feedback, sounds like sternguard bolt rifles are the way to go for what I want. Ditto for the heavy bolter.

 

 

I don't play the netlist armies either.  I like competitive but not min-maxed lists.  I just can't fit Sternguard into competitive.   Cents are trending up I think - especially the Cent Devs- and they've got a spot there. If I were making a kit - I'd probably look at getting some parted out Leviathan parts, and combine a couple of those with a couple of boxes to make one of each bolters + HB's and Combis + Heavy Bolters. 

[DemonGSides]

8 hours ago, Helias_Tancred said:

I picked up a box of Sternguard today.

 

I don't play competitively, I play with a limited group of good friends, and my days of walking into a game store and playing Tim the Store Regular's net list army are behind me. That being said I envision my five-man sternguard primarily moving up the board and putting pressure on T4 marine units (and anything weaker). I would avoid putting them up against some of the heavier units you mentioned unless I had no option? My opponents are Ultramarines, Tyranids, Necrons, World Eaters, Custodes, and Dark Angels. No one I play uses centurions, and if I were playing my friend who loves his custodes, my sternguard would not be in my Black Templar list for that fight. Thanks for the feedback, sounds like sternguard bolt rifles are the way to go for what I want. Ditto for the heavy bolter.

 

 

 

I think the combi bolters are just kind of anemic. If they guaranteed infantry kills then they would have a use case but I don't see the point.

 

I like them as a unit more than Tacticus does, but I also pair them up with Mephiston so they've got a s leader who slaps pretty hard.  Then I drive them around with a repulsor and bully an objective with them together. 

 

Not the best but not the worst.

[chapter master 454]

So, depends on if you care about the 5 point premium they come with right now compared to Intercessors.

The trade-offs is that you do lose OC and Sticky Objectives however I am personally of the opinion sticky objectives isn't something you can nor should rely on as it is hilariously easy to break as it takes one Callidus Assassin to get one shot at jumping on the objective and that's it hosed. Personally, that ability of Intercessors is neat but I feel it promotes mainly a desire not cover home-field objectives.

The loss of OC also doesn't really factor in ether imo, because while it may matter once in a blue moon...I find you tend to out OC enemy units when you kill them dead.

 

So you can tell I would say Sternguard are actually good and worth the 5 point premium just because you get a LOT of extra value that contributes to getting work done. Firstly, they do have 1 extra attack over Intercessors (4 attacks instead of 3) in melee, their bolters have rapid fire 1 (unlike intercessors) and the devastating wounds can actually let you do some meaningful plink damage to harder targets, not saying they'll hose down a Land Raider but you can count on them to get you some cheeky wounds here and there. They still have assault and heavy so those help too. Their unit ability also contributes to helping to do work, it isn't something you should rely on but it will just tip their damage output up a little bit.

Ultimately a unit that isn't something you take for one thing but more for their whole range of things they offer. They still get melee weapon access on their sergeant (the important Power Fist) so even harder opponents can't avoid damage by getting into melee and any number of leaders attached to them are just outright good.

 

Chaplain: Makes those melee attacks a lot more punchy than they should be, wounding things on 4s and 3s commonly is a massive swing when you already hit on 3s (5 of them have 16 attacks + 4 power fist attacks, that power fist now often wounds hard targets on 4s and pushes bulky infantry into wounding on 2s). Also benefits from his own leader boost while leading so, he hits hard too.

Lieutenant: Partial non-bo with the sternguard (wanting devastating wound triggers but lethals don't play nice) however does offer the flex of being able to fall back and shoot still. weakest option imo.

Captain: Bit overkill but free strats on this unit is always good, extra melee punch helps (though Chaplain is better for such a role).

Librarian: 4++ for the unit is hard to argue with for basically anything with a 3+ save.

 

However stay away from the Combi-Weapons...they are outright hilariously bad. Against basically ANYTHING other than I believe specifically Terminators, they are just worse than the bolters and even against the ideal targets they are only SLIGHTLY better than the boltguns. Just dump the combi weapons in the bin until GW gets their mental health checked on this whole "combi-Weapon" nonsense.

Naturally, always take one of their heavy weapons. Personally, their heavy bolter is the way to go every time. That thing triggers a devastating wound against a hard target you just get 2 damage on it for near enough free.

 

Using them...it just depends on how you like to play. In all truth, their name is fairly funny as they work well at the front of the army. Getting 12 bolter shots at their profile within 12" is nice, and generally I wouldn't recommend taking groups bigger than 5 really, they are a unit that gets more work done the less you invest in them and adding characters to them should be for incidental boosts and benefits, not an objective. Main issue really is the fact that they don't play well with a lot of marine combos which focus on Critical Hits on 5+ combining Sustained Hits and Lethal Hits. This means however they are very low commitment in strategy for CP.

If you want a nice simple unit that handles flank work, just slap 5 of them in an Impulsor and drive up the side using firing deck to get value. Got the spare points for it, give them a Chaplain and they should be able to rumble with other units on the flanks that only slightly have an edge. They aren't game winners but can put out a bit more damage than I think most would be comfortable with.

 

Excellent unit with their big strength being that at 90 points, just keep them cheap and cheerful. Power fist, Bolt Rifles and a Heavy Bolter and the unit can rumble. Only take Combi-weapons if you like the look of them and aren't bothered about competitive viabilty of them (and even then...they hit on 4s...they hit on 4+...WHY?)

[Tacitus]

I use HINTS for the backfield(my Deployment) and Center Field, and I use the Sticky Intercessors for the Deep Field (No Man's Land or an opponent's abandoned deployment)  Give them a Drop Pod, Deep Strike them onto the objectives your opponent has to spend 2 turns getting to (or sending something otherwise too useful like bikes etc) 

 

Intercessor Sergeants also get the power fist. 

 

I'd say using Sternguard for the "Aggressor Bomb" combo isn't as bad as you think - its not as good as using Aggressors but meh.  The trick to the Aggressor Bomb is doubling up on Crit Hits - You get a Lethal 1 and a Sustained 1 for each crit.  So what if the Lethal one can't be Devastating, the Sustained one still can be.  You're getting a freebie forced armor save and your hit that can be devastating. 

 

I haven't seen it yet, but I'm pretty tempted to try it with a 10x Terminator squad - especially one with two assault Canons.  The hole is there's no Lieutenant for the Lethal Hits so you have to find a different way to get there (if there is one) or do without - but 44 Lethal Sustained attacks (with 12 of them being Devastating) all that can deepstrike within 10" is a worthy goal. 

 

Sternguard CombiWeapons hit on 4 because their profile is an amalgam of their previous double profile turned into Anti-Infantry.  In the past when you fired the Bolter half AND the Plasma half you hit with both halves on -1 ergo 4+. 

[Karhedron]

I agree that Sternguard are a nice little package requiring minimal support. I would probably keep them cheap and cheerful myself. If I was looking for a low-cost bodyguard for a Captain or Lt then I think the Company Heroes squad probably synergises better.

  

5 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Sternguard CombiWeapons hit on 4 because their profile is an amalgam of their previous double profile turned into Anti-Infantry.  In the past when you fired the Bolter half AND the Plasma half you hit with both halves on -1 ergo 4+. 

 

That may be the logical explanation but from a balance perspective it is not a good stat line. Combi-weapons get fewer shots than bolters and worse accuracy. They are slightly better vs Terminators within 12" and worse against pretty much everything else. 

[Tacitus]

22 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

I like them as a unit more than Tacticus does,

I don't DISLIKE them as a unit, but I don't like them enough to replace Intercessors or anything else with them.  Its not that I think they're bad really, just that they don't have a spot right now.  They're not especially better at something another unit does - and they don't do anything really unique/special.  They're just stuck in the wash of other overlapping units. 

[DemonGSides]

 

13 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

 They're just stuck in the wash of other overlapping units. 

 

That's the issue with the entire Space Marine codex. 

[Tacitus]

49 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

 

That's the issue with the entire Space Marine codex. 

I wouldn't go that far - There's a number of SM Units that stand out.  Its not a min-max winner, but Outriders + Storm Speeder is fun and 12" move fight units aren't really swamped.   Even things that do overlap like Predator Destructors and Gladiator Reapers can have an argument made in favor of either over the other.   HINTS are hard to leave behind.  Aggressor Bombs, Cent Devs, Ballistus Dreads,  Well most of the Dreads really but they add up fast.  The Jump Intercessors are nice, but I'm also hoping they come up with some Trooper Fists/Eviscerators like the Assault Squad had - maybe even a bespoke Meltabomb rule or something but they need something for vs Tanks/Vehicles/Monsters/Heavies.  I like Eliminators, and I'd like them even more if you could take more than 3 per unit.   I absolutely despise the 3 or 3/6 Units.  Not because they're good or bad - a little because 3 snipers in a unit is so blah, but mostly because 100 does not divide by 3.  Or 6. 

 

Edit to Add - I'd actually say this could be one of the most diverse codices we've had when it comes to unit variety, but we're being screwed by the HQ Squatting.  So many of the Alternate Detachments stop working because the HQ's aren't there.  No Terminator LT.  No Phobos Chaplain, no Gravis Chaplain or Libby. No Bike LT, Libby, or Captain.   That's probably the main reason Gladius is still top dog.  

Edited March 5 by Tacitus

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

Edit to Add - I'd actually say this could be one of the most diverse codices we've had when it comes to unit variety, but we're being screwed by the HQ Squatting.  So many of the Alternate Detachments stop working because the HQ's aren't there.  No Terminator LT.  No Phobos Chaplain, no Gravis Chaplain or Libby. No Bike LT, Libby, or Captain.   That's probably the main reason Gladius is still top dog.  

 

I agree, it is a pretty good codex (even though I am sad to see several old favourites punted into Legends). I would argue though that Gladius is on top because it is such a variable toolbox that it allows the flexibility to deal with almost anything. Alternate detachments are not being held back by lack of specific HQs though IMHO. After all a Vanguard detachment doesn't really need a Phobos Chaplain because it has tools like BDD to make a regular Chaplain sneaky. I think Gladius largely stands out because of the insane damage potential of the Aggressor bomb.

 

I accept your point with the Stormlance (interesting to note that Space Wolves love it for their TWC Wolf Lord and Battle Leader). 

[DemonGSides]

And the Vehicle detachment is currently running rampant with Dark Angels.

 

The complaint I levied had nothing to do with detachments, I think that's probably the highlight of the codex.  It's that we have 1 bajillion datasheets.

[Tacitus]

10 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I agree, it is a pretty good codex (even though I am sad to see several old favourites punted into Legends). I would argue though that Gladius is on top because it is such a variable toolbox that it allows the flexibility to deal with almost anything. Alternate detachments are not being held back by lack of specific HQs though IMHO. After all a Vanguard detachment doesn't really need a Phobos Chaplain because it has tools like BDD to make a regular Chaplain sneaky. I think Gladius largely stands out because of the insane damage potential of the Aggressor bomb.

 

I accept your point with the Stormlance (interesting to note that Space Wolves love it for their TWC Wolf Lord and Battle Leader). 

That one or two exceptions exist doesn't disprove the general.  You're not seeing Terminator lists in the 1st Company Det, or Gravis forces in Anvil Seive or Firestorm forces.   You're not seeing Outrider forces in the Stormlance.  When and if you do see the non-Gladius Core Codex Dets, they're being used in non-standard ways.  And while I love that they are, the fact that they're not being used in standard ways is a problem - one that can be fairly quickly and easily traced to the Squatting (Or Never-Were'ing) of the HQ's needed to make the Det work the way its supposed to work. 

[Warden-Paints]

On 3/4/2024 at 11:42 AM, Helias_Tancred said:

If you built a squad of Sternguard at this point in 10th, how would you build them in terms of combi-weapons, or sternguard bolt rifles? 

 

I built a 5 man squad with heavy bolter. I built the models with combi-weapons, just because that's how I always picture sternguard. In game I would go with the sternguard bolters. Sergeant has a power fist because it's bad ass. They're not a bad unit, they won't win you the game but they look great and they can get work done. 

 

I almost can't believe some of the earlier posts in this thread, sorry you got math-hammered without asking for it. You must feel violated. 

[Warden-Paints]

On 3/4/2024 at 11:42 AM, Helias_Tancred said:

If you built a squad of Sternguard at this point in 10th, how would you build them in terms of combi-weapons, or sternguard bolt rifles? 

 

I built a 5 man squad with heavy bolter. I built the models with combi-weapons, just because that's how I always picture sternguard. In game I would go with the sternguard bolters. Sergeant has a power fist because it's bad ass. They're not a bad unit, they won't win you the game but they look great and they can get work done. 

 

I almost can't believe some of the earlier posts in this thread, sorry you got math-hammered without asking for it. You must feel violated. 

[Helias_Tancred]

Haha thanks Warden-Paints. 

[CCE1981]

I built my Sternguard in 9th when they were a 1 CP upgrade to make Veteran Intercessors.  So I just took Standard Intercessors and gave them the Adeptus Custodes Saggitarrum Guard upgrades and clipped the top spike.  The gun is great in this edition, as long as I say they are all Combi-weapons or all Sternguard Bolt Rifles.  

[Dr. Clock]

In general I'd say they're a decent 5-man rearguard screen / skirmish as the name suggests. Largely interchangeable with anything else under 100 points in that role, depending on player preference. If you like the mortal/devastating wound vibe I say just go for it with combis and heavy bolter...

 

There's just not enough positive synergy to invest in reinforcement or Leader for them IMO. If you really like them, just take 2 or even 3x5 just to take up more space on the board. Keep them cheap and annoying... adding more eggs into that basket just limits your overall board presence without actually reaching a different 'tier' of damage output. However, they might do just enough consistent direct damage to whatever is presented that they could spike on something at any time, and thus have to be at least somewhat respected.

 

If you want them more as a push piece, I'd strongly recommend converting them on to 40mm bases, add a banner to one, and call them 'Captain and Company Heroes'. I converted 3 of the Leviathan ones for that purpose (already had Indomitus Ancient and Captain) and they are a fun little budget hammer!

 

Good luck with it!

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

 

 

[Karhedron]

I think Sternguard have play in a Firestorm detachment. Within 12" a 10-man squad gets 30 S5 Ap-1 shots. For 1CP you can add Crucible of Battle for +1 to Wound. That means they are wounding MEQs on a 2+ which will result in around 17 wounds, 3 of which will be Devastating on average. Not too shabby for a 180 point unit.

[Tacitus]

6 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I think Sternguard have play in a Firestorm detachment. Within 12" a 10-man squad gets 30 S5 Ap-1 shots. For 1CP you can add Crucible of Battle for +1 to Wound. That means they are wounding MEQs on a 2+ which will result in around 17 wounds, 3 of which will be Devastating on average. Not too shabby for a 180 point unit.

The problem is not much else has play in a Firestorm Detachment.  And because Crucible of Battle requires within 6" that rules out the normal Sternguard-Drop-Pod attack.   The trick to these sorts of units that are good but not great is finding a way to mix them into an also-good army.  I just recently came across someone putting together a Deathwing Army using the Inner Circle Detachment that was trying to play up The Vowed Objective by putting Ezekiel into an Infernus Squad - they had about the same output as your Sternguard here, its a nice little trick - but because they were looking for more "Vow" units, I noticed the Vanguard Vets.  The Inner Circle List is already probably "good" when its built competently.  Add in some Vanguard Vets wtih 40 S5 -1 D1 close combat attacks on a Vowed Objective and the VV move from Meh to Yowsers wihtout locking you into a Det that is generally meh.   

 

And yes, I also included the Sternguard in the list of "Vow" eligible units that could do something nice in that Det.  They'd get 30 S4/S5, +1toW, Devastating shots at the Vow'ed objective - though +1toW doesn't synergize as much on Sternguard because it can't be used to push DevWounds - meanwhile the 10 Terminators live longer and put out 54ish S4 +1toW etc.  The sneaky winners were the Vanguard Vets who have the speed to hop from objective to objective  so you could vow a different target every time, dish out and 40 S5 -1 D1 +1toW per Squad.  There's also potential for the Terminator Assault Squad with Lightning Claws, now you're looking at 50 S5 -2 D1 attacks from a 2+/4++ - probably led by a Captain (better charges) with the Consolidate 6 instead of 3 Enhancement.  At that point I think its 50/50 if you want movement or the invuln, but nobody is likely to figure out how nasty either of those units get at first glance.  Plus some Libby Led Shootinators dropping the 54ish+ 9ish(Sustained Hits) S4 0 D1 shooting.  Even Inner Circle Companions and BGV can get in on the game - though ICC do it better with about 30 attacks counting pistols + Greatswords.