Help w/ 1k Games

[abaumann]

Well, I had my first couple games in nearly 20 years recently.  And I got SLAUGHTERED.  Still had a ton of fun, but I could use some input on play styles with 1k games.  I play casually, so the most tournament-meta list isn't really for me, but I'd like to have a few different lists to bounce around with for quick games at the local stores.  I should note that I did not play chaos back in the day, so their style is pretty different to me.

 

The first game was 2k against Ultramarines, and I just simply didn't have time to finish it...got like 2 whole turns in, since there was a lot of getting up to speed with current rules to do.  2k might be too many points until I get more acquainted with the current rules.

 

The second game was 1k against Tau, and I was pretty up in his business as quickly as possible after hearing about the turn-three sustained hits rule he would be getting, but my stuff hit like wet noodles.  Then I got totally pounded.  I think I need more synergy so I can hit harder? I'm not really sure. 

 

The tau player's 1k list looked something like this:

-Two squads of crisis battlesuits, one with commander farsight

-Commander shadowsun

-Riptide battlesuit

-Couple squads of 2 tetras

 

My 1k list looked like this:

-Slaanesh daemon prince with wings

-5 chosen, undivided

-5 legionaries, khorne

-2 rhinos, undivided/khorne

-5 havocs (2 autocannons/2 lascannons), nurgle - came in from strategic reserves

-10 cultists, nurgle

-2 x 5 warp talons, slaanesh

 

The problem I faced was being killy enough with the fast-striking units I had, and the inability to lock him into combat.  The daemon prince didn't really do much besides eat up a turn of riptide shots with FNP.  I got into close combat with almost all my stuff pretty early.  It was an odd game, and I was completely wiped off the board once he had his sustained hits rule.  

 

I have the havocs painted and really want to keep playing with them to try to make them work.  I see some tournament lists running 2 autocannons/2 lascannons, but I don't know if they need a helbrute babysitting them or not. 

 

I also don't really know if chosen need a lord to be effective.  Disembarking, advancing, shooting, and charging from a rhino is ridiculous.  Seems like I should be able to time my strikes from multiple units in the above list, but it just didn't work. The legionaries' rhino unfortunately got shot down and they were plucked away.  Gotta say, I loved loved loved the warp talons, even though they were a bit fragile.  Cultists were great too, they were the last to die. 

 

I'm thinking of the list below, against a variety of opponents, whoever that may be next.  Let me know if you think this would be more balanced and punchy, or if Chaos is just in a tough spot where they need the best of the best units to work properly after the dataslate changes...

 

1k List I'm thinking of running next (no clue who my opponent will be but want to make it applicable to most scenarios):

-Master of executions, slaanesh

-5 chosen, slaanesh

-Rhino, slaanesh

-10 cultists, nurgle

-5 havocs (2 autocannon/2 lascannon), nurgle

-2 obliterators, nurgle

-Venomcrawler, tzeentch

-2 x 5 warp talons, slaanesh

 

Below are some shots from the epic loss...as well as the havocs I'm so proud of! Even though they did all of 2 wounds on anything the whole game.   Let me know if you think the revised list will be a better approach to having more punch, even though there's no chaos lord.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 4 by abaumann

[Cpt.Danjou]

 

First of all, welcome back to the hobby.

 

The most important things with Chaos Space Marines are Dark pact and Marks. With the right combo, and with some luck, a 20 man cultist unit can seriously hurt a greater daemon or a knight. The synergies with marks are the first thing to look for, you already mentioned the Havocs with a babysitting Hellbrute. Chosen works best in my opinion in tandem with either a master of Possession or an Exalted Champion, I have run bot with the same unit, the Master of Possession makes them faster and slightly more durable, and the Exalted Champion makes the hit better, but what mark is the problem for them.

Slaanesh makes them hit more with Sustained hits, but the Advance and charge stratagem is redundant for them as it is already built in.their rules, the Chosen unit by itself has 20 attacks with accursed weapons, and that is without the detached characters accounted for. Not much chaff can survive that. So I give that Mark a c+

Khorne makes them hit harder with the lethal hits on 5+, suddenly a vehicle or some other high toughness target starts to sweat. But the Khorne Stratagem is kinda meh so I give it B- too, 

Nurgle is for shooting with its sustained fire on 5+, and to be realistically few of us bring Chosen for their shooting, a five man unit fires 8-10 shot, and that would be about 1- 2 extra shots purely by statistic. Sure a combi weapon or two might be ok, but it in Close combat they excel.The Stratagem is ok, even if it was nerfed, but most of the time Chosen will be in the the 18" range. It is if you loose the roll for first turn that it can become handy, but you will probably use it on something like a Havoc squad or if you have a vehicle. B-

Tzeentch, once again great for shooting if you are firing at high toughness  targets, but again they are mostly not brought on the table for shooting. The stratagem is nice, bringing back a dead model is great. B

Mark of undivided re-rolling ones for hit, is great, and the stratagem for re-rolling wound rolls is good. Maybe the only A.

 

But are Chosen really worth it? I almost always loose my Chosen before they do anything because they are dangerous if they get in to close combat, especially if they are a five man unit, even with a character. They are just 3 wound marines while slugging up the table, and most armies have ways to take care of them. Anti-infantry, lethal hits, and devastating wounds are extremely common. They often become a top priority for many players. There are two other units that are similar, Possessed and Terminators. Terminators are way to expensive to switch out for Chosen, so I have now switched out my Chosen for Possessed, 10 points more expensive, and way more durable, extremely fast, and hits like trucks in close combat. For Possessed the Mark of Slaanesh become an A+, as they don't have the inbuilt advance and charge, and Sustained hits on 5+ gets better with a damage of two and devastating wounds. The downside, is that the only character that can get detached to them is the Master of Possession, which is not a bad character for them, plus movement in Advance and Charge, FNP, and some extra precision shooting and hitting if it comes to that.

 

Here is how my last 1000 point list looked. and won vs teleporting Necrons.

 

Chaos lord in terminator armour, Combi bolter/power fist Undivided (95)

Master of Possession Slaanesh (80)

Exalted Champion Slaanesh (70)

 

Cultists Shooty, with Heavy Stubber and Greande launcher. Tzeentch (55)

Legioners. Icon Double Heavy weapon, Reaper Cannon, and two Chainswords, Slaanesh (90)

 

Terminators, Chain Cannon, Two powerfists, One Chainfist. Undivided (195)

Possessed, Icon, Slaanesh (140)

Havocs, Four Lascannons, Meltagun, Accursed weapon. Nurgle (135)

 

Helbrute, Heavy flamer fist and twin linked lascannon Nurgle (140)

 

The Legioners and Cultists jobs are to take objectives, Terminators are there to wreck faces and hold the center, Possessed are are there to bind up units in close combat. Havoc/Helbrute combo to take care of heavy things far away.

 

Three things that make my list not that good. Cultists, to few, and no Dark commune to support them, but it is only 55 points, they took one objective an kill three Immortals. Terminators, can't deepstrike with the detached lord, but they still manage to hold the objective in the center, kill Two lords, Lychguard, and finish of a warrior unit. The Legioner units is just plain weird, not really having a proper goal, but it killed one of those close combat destroyer squads with the help of the Helbrute.

 

Cpt. Danjou

Edited March 4 by Cpt.Danjou
Nice looking Alphas!

[Tallarn Commander]

Captain Danjou gave you some good advice. I'd also encourage you to increase the size of the Chosen from 5 to 10. Maybe drop a Warp Talon Squad to pay for them.

 

My squad of 10 Chosen usually are my top performers because my opponent usually initially  concentrates on blowing away my Possessed.

[abaumann]

Thanks guys, very helpful, couple questions though…

Where does your exalted champion get used in your list, with the legionaries? And do you find limitations with fielding slower units at 1000pts? Not seeing rhinos in there, or anything that moves as fast as the possessed for that matter, but maybe that’s ok given the smaller board size?

[Cpt.Danjou]

When playing 1000 points game my group usually have slightly smaller boards. The Exalted had to run with the only unit that could take him, and that was the legioners. To explain a little. My group is playing crusade, and we have built armies around 1600 points, but when playing a 1000 point game we are limited to take what is the 1600 list. So when when I changed out my Chosen I had to take something with the same mark and that could run with the Exalted, and that was only the legioner unit with the same mark. If I did not have that limit, I would probably got rid of the legioner squad and exalted for something different. Right now I don't know what. Maybe a Maulerfiend, as that makes most opponents tremble with fear, a s14 monster that will kill anything it touch will suddenly become the main target for the opponent. Possessed and terminators will have a nice walk in the park, stealing objectives, getting into close combat, doing tasks. Always remember that to win today is to take objectives and doing tasks, not kill stuff. Killing stuff is fun, but does not always give you points- I have won several matches with most of my army dead.

 

Your opponents will know that Chaos are very good in Close combat, and it is there they often kill the opponent, so they will concentrate on the biggest threat, As Tallarn Commander said, his Chosen gets into the fight because the opponent has to concentrate on the Possessed When my Slaanesh marked Exalted Champion by his own killed seven Necron warriors in one turn of close combat, my Necron playing friend could not believe his eyes. We do have problems against hard shooting armies with lots of shenanigans, and when meeting such armies I have a tendency to creep around in cover, snipping objectives, and forcing my opponent to come closer to me. My greatest head ache at the moment is how to  handle Rhino rushing Death guard. Plague Marines with maxed out special flamers is not something our close combat squads like. Auto-hitting anti-infantry 2+ is painful. I might have to go Chaos Marine shooting for that match, loading up with Predators, Havocs and Helbrutes, He will castle up in the middle, with the Rhinos, and let things like cultists, bloatdrones and Blighthaulers take objectives. 

 

The terminators was forced to walk, no deepstrike for that an expensive unit like that in 1000 point game, as it costs a whooping 280 points Lord included, so they will footslog behind the possessed.

I alos realise that I used Chosen with Slaanesh, even if I said that it is not that good, the game a played with them made me think that, One Chosen have become to expensive after the point increase and, two they are better with Undivided.

 

Also, I play in a group who are not super competitive, so my advice might always not be the best.

 

Cpt.Danjou

Edited March 4 by Cpt.Danjou

[abaumann]

That makes a lot of sense. I think I’m pretty used to creating lists that are so focused on annihilating the opponent from 3rd/4th edition, that I’m forgetting that doing actions is most important. Also, I’m realizing how good chaos are in both melee and shooting, not just melee. You’re right, the chosen might be too expensive with a lord or exalted champion and rhino at 1000pts…nearly a third of the army. With that, I might try the list below next…luckily I have lots of different units I can choose from and piece together to make a smaller list. 

-Master of Possession, Slaanesh

-5 Possessed, Slaanesh

-5 Warp Talons, Slaanesh

-10 Cultists, Tzeentch

-Venomcrawler, Tzeentch

-Havocs (2 autocannon/2 lascannon), Nurgle

-Helbrute, fist/flamer, lascannon, Nurgle

-Defiler, autocannon/scourge, Nurgle

Hoping the defiler doesn’t get stuck trying to navigate terrain too often on smaller tables.

That leaves 30pts leftover that I don’t know what to do with…hmmm

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

The only thing that I can think of that's 30 points or less are the enhancements, which in this case would have to be the intoxicating elixir as your only character is slaaneshi - I tend to give one to my own MoP in my chaos army list, but pretty much only because of being left with points that would otherwise be unspent.