Ultramarines company makeup (Primaris/Legacy Marines)

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I've not read a lot of SM books since the "age" of Primaris has come about. I do know there are 3rd (4th?) founding chapters that are all Primaris, at this point in the timeline. However.. I'm under the impression that the first founding chapters still have a considerable amount of legacy (first born as some of you like to say) Space Marines in their ranks.. I'm listening to the 'Swords of Calth' audiobook, so in that setting, there are still legacy SM in the UM 4th company and I would not be surprised if other companies reflected the same as there are legacy SM with Ventris in the novel

For fluff reasons. If I was intent on collecting an entire company (or multiple companies),  I was under the impression that not only would it be appropriate to have legacy SM still represented in company ranks, it may even be a reality for some if not all companies, still..

Anyone have any knowledge to drop I'm not privvy to; or otherwise am not considering? 

Edited March 6 by Bloody Legionnaire

[TheArtilleryman]

This is correct. There are still a great many firstborn marines still in the ranks; I have no idea what the ratio of FB/Primaris is but one would think it’s at least equal, with the majority of chapters having mixed cohorts. While crossing the rubicon is meant to be getting easier, it’s not going to happen overnight and most of those marines will be needed on active duty so haven’t got time for surgery.

There are chapters that have been formed entirely of primaris, and I’m sure there are chapters that have still not received any reinforcements at all due to warp travel complications or communications issues, or just flat refusal to accept them. How the chapter is composed is entirely within your gift to decide, if you are going to be playing your own homebrew chapter. Ultramarines though would definitely be mixed throughout.

Edited March 6 by TheArtilleryman

[Wormwoods]

Functionally, there wouldn't be any difference between a 1st or 26th founding, as any Chapter founded before the Ultima (the Primaris one) would have been ~1000 firstborn marines up until that point. Like TheArtilleryman said, it's more about availability of those new reinforcements, what state the chapter was in when they arrived, and how willing to change they are. 

 

Also muddled by the fact that as of Leviathan, marine squads are mixed firstborn and Primaris, at least veteran squads like Sternguard and Terminators, so just because a marine is wearing the new gear doesn't necessarily mean there's a Primaris under there. 

 

Sorry to say, but there's not going to be any exact numbers on the rubicon status of any individual company. Just wing it, fill the company out with a mix of old and new that feels right to you. 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Gents, I appreciate both of your responses. The information you provided essentially confirmed my assumptions; I also appreciate some of the added information I wasn't tracking ! 

 

So with that, there's nothing in the fluff stating Primaris don't use Rhinos, correct? If 10 can fit in a drop pod.. I don't see why they wouldn't fit in a Rhino other than in game mechanics; it's not what GW wants. From the reading I've done on the internet, the Repulsor is still considered a main battle tank (despite the added transport space) and he Impulsor isn't quite the APC that the rhino is. Since the Rhino doesn't have a direct crossover or replacement I'm going to assume it's still the main APC for SMs.

Edited March 6 by Bloody Legionnaire

[TheArtilleryman]

52 minutes ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

Gents, I appreciate both of your responses. The information you provided essentially confirmed my assumptions; I also appreciate some of the added information I wasn't tracking ! 

 

So with that, there's nothing in the fluff stating Primaris don't use Rhinos, correct? If 10 can fit in a drop pod.. I don't see why they wouldn't fit in a Rhino other than in game mechanics; it's not what GW wants. From the reading I've done on the internet, the Repulsor is still considered a main battle tank (despite the added transport space) and he Impulsor isn't quite the APC that the rhino is. Since the Rhino doesn't have a direct crossover or replacement I'm going to assume it's still the main APC for SMs.

It’s completely bonkers that primaris marines can’t use a rhino. But nevertheless, the rules specify that they can’t. Sternguard have apparently suddenly decided that they can’t either. Anything with the “tacticus” keyword can’t. Primaris can use impulsors, repulsors, drop pods and land raiders, but they can’t use rhinos or razorbacks.

Fluff wise I’m not sure if there is anything specified about it. Maybe there’s a story somewhere where they keep banging their heads on the door frame or something so have to give up riding in them because they don’t know how to duck 

[Wormwoods]

Yeah, that's firmly in the 'gameplay abstraction' bucket, along with 'how do any of these transports work, the models aren't big enough to fit 2 guys inside, let alone 10.'

[OpossumStrong]

5 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Fluff wise I’m not sure if there is anything specified about it. Maybe there’s a story somewhere where they keep banging their heads on the door frame or something so have to give up riding in them because they don’t know how to duck 

Yeah, DoF book 2 explained it well, with imperial fist primaris barely fit inside.

 

Regarding OP question there is basically no firstborn "production" in the imperium, some isolated/unreachable chapters exist that's true, but most of the chapters got the primaris technology, some older chapters are fully primaris now(scythes of the emperor as an UM successor example), basically when firstborn fall he is replaced with primaris marine.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

22 minutes ago, OpossumStrong said:

Yeah, DoF book 2 explained it well, with imperial fist primaris barely fit inside.

 

Regarding OP question there is basically no firstborn "production" in the imperium, some isolated/unreachable chapters exist that's true, but most of the chapters got the primaris technology, some older chapters are fully primaris now(scythes of the emperor as an UM successor example), basically when firstborn fall he is replaced with primaris marine.

 

That's not true though, now is it?

BT were very skeptical of Primaris, possibly still are. SW also have their methods of making legacy marines that is unique as they are another  non-compliant chapter and there are zero fluff reasons for why they aren't able to recruit from the Fenrisians as they have always done. GW has already stated that the GK would be accepting no Primaris Marines, which means they will be continuing on as well under their established methods.

Where are you even sourcing this conjecture from?

Lastly, from doing research on the internet, I've found that in the fluff Primarch's were able to fit inside Rhinos during the HH and they are much larger than a Primaris marine. I'm not really sure I buy the excuse here. 

42 minutes ago, Wormwoods said:

Yeah, that's firmly in the 'gameplay abstraction' bucket, along with 'how do any of these transports work, the models aren't big enough to fit 2 guys inside, let alone 10.'

 

I don't let modelling issues dictate what happens in universe for me. I don't believe in the "true-scale" movement at all either. It's silly IMO. Game scale is a thing and actual true-scale is rarely a consideration when it comes to game scale. I wish more people would/could understand that. 

[TheArtilleryman]

Yeah the rhino model has always looked too small to fit ten marines. The old 2nd edition rhino was even smaller than we have now. So there’s always been a bit of artistic licence there. 

[2PlusEasy]

The core structure of the companies hasn't changed, just the terminology: rather then tactical, assault and devestator, the roles are called battle line, close support and fire support. Chop and change old marines and Primaris as you please to fill those roles.

 

You just have Lieutenants now as an addition.

Edited March 7 by 2PlusEasy

[OpossumStrong]

7 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

BT were very skeptical of Primaris, possibly still are. SW also have their methods of making legacy marines that is unique as they are another  non-compliant chapter and there are zero fluff reasons for why they aren't able to recruit from the Fenrisians as they have always done. GW has already stated that the GK would be accepting no Primaris Marines, which means they will be continuing on as well under their established methods.

You're right, lots of chapters were sceptical, SW still recruit fenrisians, but eventually most of them accept those new warriors,fenrisians make primaris with the new technology etc, at the end for GW it's just a business, same as fitting primaris into rhino, but it is what it is.

 

Lots of recent books explore this(DI, DoF, Great Work) even the most strict parts of BT accepting them eventually.

Edited March 7 by OpossumStrong

[Wormwoods]

9 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

I don't let modelling issues dictate what happens in universe for me. I don't believe in the "true-scale" movement at all either. It's silly IMO. Game scale is a thing and actual true-scale is rarely a consideration when it comes to game scale. I wish more people would/could understand that. 

Yeah, that's what I mean by 'gameplay abstraction', it isn't lore, it's just a function of the wargame. 

[Prot]

There is a great Dawn of Fire novel I really enjoyed overall. In it the Wolves flat out reject Primaris. At one point Primaris that are made from the Wolves geneseed are sent out to Fenris. The Primaris are actually excited to be 'reunited' with their gene brothers and they try to immerse themselves in the culture. As with all things 40K it all goes horribly wrong.

 

In the end the stubborn Wolves pretty much force Gulliman to take a detour on the Indomitus crusade and force a face to face meeting on Fenris. 

 

What we realize here (just in case there was any doubt) is the Wolves are becoming extinct, and they know it. The first born are dying, and recruitment is too slow. There's a bit of depth to this but the bottom line is the Primaris are mandatory, and replacing all of it... it's just a matter of time (from a fluff AND a GW sales perspective).

 

There will always be hold outs, and they may live... 'forever' but in general I think this is being spelled out all over the place.

[Tacitus]

As to the OP's specific question:  I'd assume the Ultramarines have more Primaris than most other chapters that aren't Primaris Founding.  In addition to being the Primarch's "namesake" chapter, they also likely had quite a bit of attrition during the Plague Wars while the Primarch was putting out fires everywhere else.  If I were fluffing the Ultramarines out, they'd be 75% Primaris - especially if I fluff them out based on what can be fielded on the Tabletop. 

 

Basic Battle Company on their most recent deployment:

 

10 HINTs Squad I

10 HINTs Squad II

10 Intercessors Squad III

10 Intercessors Squad IV

10 Tactical Marines Squad V

10 Infiltrators Squad VI

 

10 Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs Squad VII

10 Incursors Sqaud VIII

 

10 Devastators Squad IX

5 Desloators Squd X (Part 1)

6 Aggressors Squad X (Part 2) or Squad XI.

 

Edit to Add:  In addition: Calgar, Tigurius, Sicarius, and Ventris have all crossed the Rubicon themselves so even most of their HQs are Primaris now.

Edited March 8 by Tacitus

[jaxom]

On 3/6/2024 at 12:35 AM, Bloody Legionnaire said:

I'm listening to the 'Swords of Calth' audiobook, so in that setting, there are still legacy SM in the UM 4th company and I would not be surprised if other companies reflected the same as there are legacy SM with Ventris in the novel

*SNIP*
Anyone have any knowledge to drop I'm not privvy to; or otherwise am not considering? 

 

14 hours ago, Tacitus said:

As to the OP's specific question:  I'd assume the Ultramarines have more Primaris than most other chapters that aren't Primaris Founding.  In addition to being the Primarch's "namesake" chapter, they also likely had quite a bit of attrition during the Plague Wars while the Primarch was putting out fires everywhere else.  If I were fluffing the Ultramarines out, they'd be 75% Primaris - especially if I fluff them out based on what can be fielded on the Tabletop. 

 

The 8th edition codex had the composition of the 2nd Company towards the end of the Plague War. Ironically, it's the opposite of what Tacticus has. Out of 102 marines, 77 are Firstborn (75.5%) and 25 are Primaris (24.5%). Out of all that, 10 Firstborn and 5 Primaris are from Reserve Companies, seconded to the Battle Company. With those removed, we're at about 67% Firstborn and 23% Primaris.

 

Part of this is because many of the Primaris squads are not at full strength, while all of the Firstborn squads are at full strength. If the Primaris squads were at full strength, then it would be about 60% Firstborn and 40% Primaris.

 

Mind you, this is for the 2nd Company and the Ultramarines follow the "move down one Company at a time as you gain experience," so they'd probably have the least number of new, non-Greyshield Primaris as official members (other than the 1st Company). 

[Tacitus]

10 hours ago, jaxom said:

 

 

The 8th edition codex had the composition of the 2nd Company towards the end of the Plague War. Ironically, it's the opposite of what Tacticus has. Out of 102 marines, 77 are Firstborn (75.5%) and 25 are Primaris (24.5%). Out of all that, 10 Firstborn and 5 Primaris are from Reserve Companies, seconded to the Battle Company. With those removed, we're at about 67% Firstborn and 23% Primaris.

 

Part of this is because many of the Primaris squads are not at full strength, while all of the Firstborn squads are at full strength. If the Primaris squads were at full strength, then it would be about 60% Firstborn and 40% Primaris.

 

Mind you, this is for the 2nd Company and the Ultramarines follow the "move down one Company at a time as you gain experience," so they'd probably have the least number of new, non-Greyshield Primaris as official members (other than the 1st Company). 

It was also before we had more Primaris and fewer firstborn.  20 Assault Marines are now Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs, scouts have mostly been replaced with Infiltrators and Incursors especially when they haven't been seconded to a battle company. 

 

One of the army building exercises I go through every edition is making a full Company, and for the first time in a long time, its actually possible.

 

Jump Captain

Chaplain

Lieutenant

Lieutenant

 

10 HINTS

20 Intercessors

20 Tacs

10 Infiltrators

 

10x Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs

10x Assault Intercessors

 

10x Devs

10x Infernus

 

Which works out to 1995 points. 

It may not be the most effective on a tabletop, and fluff wise they're not constrained to 2,000 points per company but its a data point. 

[CCE1981]

In 2019 Bell of Lost Souls did an interesting piece on what a Primaris Chapter might “look like”.  It’s, gawd 5 years, old now, but it is a nice template to work from.  Throw in some updated units and a few Firstborn into the more senior positions and there you go!

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/08/warhammer-40k-organization-of-a-primaris-chapter-prime-bonus.html

 

[Tacitus]

Yeah, that one is showing it's age.  And how much they've added to Primaris.  Reminds me I forgot Reivers are technically Close Assault not Elite on the shoulderpad. 

 

That was before Assault Intercessors on Foot even.  

 

Also:  That's a lot of Repulsors for not a lot of Impulsors which I would guess changes if we do a recent version. 

[jaxom]

Mk10 armour types do make for an interesting challenge because one squad can be many squad types. I think it’s funny that Desolators and AIwJP mean we can kind of make an old school company again.

[Tacitus]

8 hours ago, jaxom said:

Mk10 armour types do make for an interesting challenge because one squad can be many squad types. I think it’s funny that Desolators and AIwJP mean we can kind of make an old school company again.

We can.  I posted it up above.  I'm not sure how good it would be - and its probably hard for over a hundred Marine Bodies to be BAD - but it comes in at 1995. 

[TheArtilleryman]

I think by “old school” the poster above means using primaris to make a more traditional company that looks more like the old tac/ass/dev combo.  More like:

 

Captain with jump pack 

Chaplain

Ancient or Apothecary

60 x Intercessors

20 x Hellblasters

20 x Jump pack assault intercessors 

 

1995 points

 

This would be more uniform and visually more like an old codex compliant company.

Desolators can’t come in squads of 10 and cost too many points to be able to make a company like this though, so you can’t have 20. That’s why I went for the hellblasters instead.

 

At first I thought it wouldn’t have much heavy firepower because intercessors lose access to all the special weapons that tacticals have. However, if you tool them all up with plasma pistol/thunder hammer sergeants and 2 x Astartes grenade launchers in every 10-man intercessor squad, plus 3 plasma pistols and a power fist in each assault squad, they start to look interesting.
 

I can imagine your opponent would be a little taken aback at facing down 103 primaris marines, not to mention the OC potential is huge too.
 

I now want to build this army to try it out in a game 

Edited March 10 by TheArtilleryman

[jaxom]

5 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

I think by “old school” the poster above means using primaris to make a more traditional company that looks more like the old tac/ass/dev combo.

Yep. Only thing I'd swap is two "combat squads" of Desolators for one of the Hellblaster squads, just for some diversity. Really is a shame that a poorly written enhancement rule made 10-man squads of Desolators cease to be.

[TheArtilleryman]

3 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Yep. Only thing I'd swap is two "combat squads" of Desolators for one of the Hellblaster squads, just for some diversity. Really is a shame that a poorly written enhancement rule made 10-man squads of Desolators cease to be.

Desolators are so expensive too. I mean, 400 points for 10? Just not worth it the Hellblasters are 250. The Desolators just don’t fit in the list.

[jaxom]

Oh yeah, definitely for a playable list. I was thinking more of aesthetics.

[beefeb]

I generally run whatever i feel like for my Ultramarines, and i have mostly primaris.  I sold off most of my firstborn as with the new scales, they just look so laughable its embarassing.  That being said, I do use tactical squads and devastators still...I field them from the Mk6 HH kits and they look much better alongside the Primaris and fit well.  From a gaming perspective, Ive noticed it really catches out people expecting primaris forces when i put down a tactical squad which includes a special and heavy weapon...keeps people on their toes!

Edited June 17 by beefeb