Points cost updated

[Tokugawa]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/5uaNFQa5XmuQLzmK.pdf

 

On WHC downloads. Not aggressively pushed but more reasonable. The costs printed on paper version codex was a joke. 58pts DWK, who can afford that? 47pts is the actually cost now.

[Lion El Jason]

I didn't see anything reasonable except Azrael, Deathwing Terminators and Black Knights.
The rest is still way overcosted.  The problems with the codex can't be fixed with points costs though, they nerfed the models out of usability.  There's just no point for them with those rules, regardless of points (Well, any sensible points, I guess they could undercost everything by 50% but they would still be boring and dull).

[Tacitus]

I dont know, Deathwing Knights took a huge price drop.  There's a lot of 6-of-one-half-a-dozen-of-the-other back and forth going on, but comparing them to a Redemptor Dreadnought (as both have the "Duty Eternal -1D thing) isn't too wild :  Now only 25 points difference between a unit of Knights and a Redemptor. losing the shooting, but also 12 T10 3+/No++ 12 -1D wounds vs 20 T5 2+/4++ -1D Wounds.   Plus OC 4 vs OC 5 (10 with Ancient) 5Deahtwing Knights aren't that far out of their ballpark if at all. 

 

Deathwing Terminator Squads took a minor drop - now only 1PPM more than default Terminator Squads.   Of course Terminators aren't great, and have trouble displacing Aggressors because Aggressors can get the Fire Discipline Lieutenant pretending to be an Apothecary.

 

As did the Ravenwing Black Knights and Command Squad.  They were already good and got better.  Not sure why the Vengeance went up. 

 

The Lion took a minor drop - and I'd expect to see another minor drop in the next release.  Big changes are rare.  

 

[Tokugawa]

Redemptor has 2+. 

 

 

[Lion El Jason]

Deathwing Knights are worse than regular terminators if you want a big blob or melee damage.  They simply have no role.

 

Similar to the Lion; he just has no use in any list, if he loses on average to a Tactical Squad then what is he for?

[FarFromSam]

Voting with your wallet is harder when GW prereleases models ahead of codexes.  This whole ordeal is so confusing.   Why?

[Prot]

Well I've had a night to reflect on this, and I don't think my opinion has changed.

 

Here's the thing for me that I just honestly can't make sense of.... the newest figures are the ones you want to sell (as a business) and these points would seem to defy that logic.

 

I know there were dataslate nerfs. But I play Necrons, and when everyone saw the dataslate previews for the codex, there was a lot of crying and moaning. Then the detachments came and saved the day. Canoptek Court? This saved the cruddy canoptek units. Not only making a largely ignored chunk of the codex playable but it is fun, and arguably competitive (if you want to use that as a measuring stick.) The list goes on, I won't bore you with it, but this holds true for a lot of the stuff in the codex. IE: The detachments saved the dataslate nerfs (mostly). I mean just look at the Monolith/Hypercrypt detachment. Incredibly fun to play. It takes a completely static army and empowers it to score... accomplishing this without improving unit costs/abilities.

 

So that is what I thought would happen here and it didn't (or at least I'm not seeing it yet.)  And perhaps maybe the BEST thing I got out of the Necron codex was not only the detachment flexibility but the ability to play the army successfully much like it reads on paper, or in the fluff/fiction. Truly immersive detachments.

 

This just did not happen. Granted my biggest interest is the Inner Circle. But it appears to me so far that the biggest winner here is the Ravenwing. The inherent ability of the detachment is conducive to 10th ed scoring. This is big, but to be frank..... I don't want to play those god awful old bikes anymore. I got rid of them for a reason. Where are the new bikes? (And don't you dare release them one day only to delete the command squad like you did with Deathwing.)

 

I realize at this point my granular discussion might get too long. So let me try to reel it in; I play at least once a week. A LOT of marine games and here's what I think is happening right now:

 

- The Lion took too big a nerf, especially at the cost of a... Monolith! Plus a Monolith doesn't need support. Keep in mind when you buy the Lion, you buy the whole litter.  I think he's the most unplayable / non competitive and least army wide affecting Primarch in 10th ed. (I think all Primarchs should have a significant faction buff, not just a beat stick.)

 

- People point to Azrael as "good". That's fine he should be. If you've noticed GW have allowed the stereo typical 'special character' to be very reasonably costed for most factions. This is well in line. And if I'm 100% honest, I prefer Calgar. His greatest limitation is maybe his armour. Otherwise he does it all and is really conducive to scoring.

 

- Dataslate nerfs. I mention this above, but we have to acknowledge this as a negative.

 

- Detachment rules. Again mentioned above, but the bottom line is (and this really is a huge issue for myself... maybe the biggest one) is if everyone is just going to play the Gladius and no effort is put into anything else, what's the point GW? Personally I see the Gladius as the Codex Astartes detachment.

 

- At this point, I think everyone was hoping the points were going to validate the issues above. The new models are amazing imho, but everything else detracts from this. The Knights are great, I miss the command squad, but the rest looks great. Inner Circle is absolutely ridiculously overcosted. I've used them side by side in games with Bladeguard and hands down, the Bladeguard are just better. Put Asmodai in there (because you don't Azrael here) and they have put the inner circle to shame in my games so far. The Lion is my favorite primarch model, the book Son of the Forest was fantastic... he's just so stinky right now on the table. All these new models could have really shined in detachments. Belial might be the most disappointing thing I've seen in 40k in a while. Incredible model, really lackluster and adds no value on the table top. (I prefer a vanilla Capt to him.)

 

- I see the Ravenwing as potentially the diamond in the rough here. The points are better, but the models are too dated for me. This had me really scratching my head... Why didn't GW put out new Ravenwing bikes? Why (at least) didn't they put out a Ravenwing Sprue, overcharge us for it, but at least give us a way to transform those Outriders into Black Knights / Command Squads? And poor Sammael.... by the Emperor's porcelain throne why am I still using a failcast version of this guy steering a hotdog cart?

 

- Good news: The best of this codex is in the fiction. I do like how the legion has moved beyond the stagnant secrets and hunting stuff they rarely find, etc.... The Lion is refreshed in a way I really like. The models again are much better than I thought. (I wasn't too hot on the Knights originally).

 

I think the number one thing this codex is giving DA players is the DW Knights. They don't hit that hard, but they are almost on par with Deathguard now. I just had a game against Death Guard and I was frankly jealous. I was down to T4, and a 3+ save on my termies so my -1 wound really didn't do much. His Termies were probably better by a good margin, and of course those aura's are huge. They shut the Deathwing right down.

 

So after that rant I'm torn. It would be VERY easy for me to just pull out my Ultra's and forget this ever happened. But I really do like this model line up, and the direction of the DA as a legion. I've worked really hard at expanding my latest DA, and spent a lot of money on this. 

 

 

 

 

[jaxom]

4 hours ago, Prot said:

- I see the Ravenwing as potentially the diamond in the rough here. The points are better, but the models are too dated for me. This had me really scratching my head... Why didn't GW put out new Ravenwing bikes? Why (at least) didn't they put out a Ravenwing Sprue, overcharge us for it, but at least give us a way to transform those Outriders into Black Knights / Command Squads? And poor Sammael.... by the Emperor's porcelain throne why am I still using a failcast version of this guy steering a hotdog cart?

Maybe they're keeping them in a back pocket for when they have a creative lull. The Outriders and Chaplain exist; I'd be shocked if GW didn't already have CAD files for a multipart Outrider kit and other characters. The big release for marines this time around was jump packs, I expect 11th edition will see old bikes completely replaced by new bikes.. I don't think the Ravenwing Command Squad will get updated. I do expect updated Black Knights at some point, most likely 11th or 12th edition Dark Angel release.

 

I forget which frater said it, but they made a point that a lot of GW's internal testing is with the armies we see in their pictures. A unit like Deathwing Knights is (ideally without bias) originally pointed in the context of battles against armies which showcase a variety of a faction's units.

 

As for the detachments.... Unforgiven detachment is extremely narrative in nature and strikes me more like an idea for a mission than a detachment. I get the feeling it was not designed to be used all the time. Whether that was an appropriate decision, well that'll depend on the person you ask. Ravenwing is definitely the most cleanly defined. Deathwing suffers from dilution: giving non-Deathwing the keyword by attaching a character. I think if that were not an issue, it would be simpler to tune the enhancements and stratagems to the right level for more expensive models.

 

 

[Interrogator Stobz]

They have sold them to us already, now they can move on with the next hotness without needing to replace DA stock in a limited capacity environment. 

Shareholders are happy things sell out instead of sitting on shelves.

It's just business. Not Hobby.

[Tacitus]

10 hours ago, Prot said:

Well I've had a night to reflect on this, and I don't think my opinion has changed.

 

Here's the thing for me that I just honestly can't make sense of.... the newest figures are the ones you want to sell (as a business) and these points would seem to defy that logic.

The newest ones are going to sell themselves even before the rules.  i.e. they don't need rules to sell as everyone rushes to pre-order. 

 

[Tokugawa]

Rules can be adjusted in months, models can't. Cool new models could be cool for 10 or more years, and don't need broken rules to sell well. Only very ugly ones(e.g. nerv marine) need, they can't sell well with weaker or properly powered rules.

 

 

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Tokugawa said:

Rules can be adjusted in months, models can't. Cool new models could be cool for 10 or more years, and don't need broken rules to sell well. Only very ugly ones(e.g. nerv marine) need, they can't sell well with weaker or properly powered rules.

 

 

And they get put in boxed sets like Reivers.

 

Still I don't think DA are doing too bad.  I think DW Knights are pretty decently priced.  I think Ravenwing could even be a bargain - I just did the Fire Discipline math on them and its painful for most things they could shoot at.  Even the Lion isn't bad.  He's probably 90% of Gulliman on the table top only really differing in their HAVE THREE PICK ONE ability and the sweep damage which is usually pretty minor. 

[Prot]

20 hours ago, jaxom said:

Maybe they're keeping them in a back pocket for when they have a creative lull. The Outriders and Chaplain exist; I'd be shocked if GW didn't already have CAD files for a multipart Outrider kit and other characters. The big release for marines this time around was jump packs, I expect 11th edition will see old bikes completely replaced by new bikes.. I don't think the Ravenwing Command Squad will get updated. I do expect updated Black Knights at some point, most likely 11th or 12th edition Dark Angel release.

 

I forget which frater said it, but they made a point that a lot of GW's internal testing is with the armies we see in their pictures. A unit like Deathwing Knights is (ideally without bias) originally pointed in the context of battles against armies which showcase a variety of a faction's units.

 

As for the detachments.... Unforgiven detachment is extremely narrative in nature and strikes me more like an idea for a mission than a detachment. I get the feeling it was not designed to be used all the time. Whether that was an appropriate decision, well that'll depend on the person you ask. Ravenwing is definitely the most cleanly defined. Deathwing suffers from dilution: giving non-Deathwing the keyword by attaching a character. I think if that were not an issue, it would be simpler to tune the enhancements and stratagems to the right level for more expensive models.

 

 

 

This is interesting to me. I have said my piece about the units, and how I'm finding them so far, but the detachments... I'm wondering if this is truly how we are 'meant' to view them. If what you're saying is true ('...not designed to be used all the time') or more for a 'mission' rather than a detachment, then what we are buying here is a book of dataslates and a narrative pack. 

 

On this point I don't think I agree. Sure some of the detachments are just there for the sake of fulfilling some background driven narrative, but I think they should be playtesting some of these detachments with the idea that it is going to be on part with anything a marine army can use. 

 

I think conversely if you just told everyone today that the Gladius will be 'the' detachment for competitive play and everything else you see from any other marine codex should be considered narrative or mission driven, I think you'd have a riot on your hands. I think this would be extremely disappointing to the marine community at large if it were true.

 

 

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Prot said:

On this point I don't think I agree. Sure some of the detachments are just there for the sake of fulfilling some background driven narrative, but I think they should be playtesting some of these detachments with the idea that it is going to be on part with anything a marine army can use. 

 

I think conversely if you just told everyone today that the Gladius will be 'the' detachment for competitive play and everything else you see from any other marine codex should be considered narrative or mission driven, I think you'd have a riot on your hands. I think this would be extremely disappointing to the marine community at large if it were true.

100% agree, and I think the second half is why they never would come out and say they designed a particular detachment with more of an eye towards narrative/lore and less towards keeping it on par with others.  Other than Stubborn, Greenwing never really operated differently from Codex Astartes. I think that, at the end of the day, the lore strengths of certain (sub)factions don't translate to universally useful rules in the 10th edition paradigm. A detachment which revolves around failing Leadership checks has to jump through more hoops to activate them, and even if the perks are game-breaking, there's no way to really ensure they come into play.

[Prot]

40 minutes ago, jaxom said:

100% agree, and I think the second half is why they never would come out and say they designed a particular detachment with more of an eye towards narrative/lore and less towards keeping it on par with others.  Other than Stubborn, Greenwing never really operated differently from Codex Astartes. I think that, at the end of the day, the lore strengths of certain (sub)factions don't translate to universally useful rules in the 10th edition paradigm. A detachment which revolves around failing Leadership checks has to jump through more hoops to activate them, and even if the perks are game-breaking, there's no way to really ensure they come into play.

 

This is true, but what if instead of being 'stubborn', the faction relied on a different aspect of their personality? Secrets... One Card can be face down every turn. Hidden Objectives? The stubborn thing has been around forever. Back in 3rd I remember it just made you better at shooting as a trait. The DA were quite a shooty chapter back then actually. This could have been the focus.

 

But I'm getting too far off topic. On the subject of points, the only one I haven't taken yet (under the new codex) is the Lion. I stopped using him because he was so incredibly killable by low level firepower. You need him within a foot to shoot at, but unfortunately that's when he starts to make his 350 points back. I've always had opponents that were smart enough to screen in layers, and the Lion is very slow, predictable, and easy to block out (his base/status makes him awkward) He wants to be in close combat so typically I'd get him in once, and he'd be a one and done. So I stopped taking him, and saw things improve. (plus you're not babysitting him with Bladeguard or the Librarian trick.) 

 

Now he's less survivable, but just as many points. I'd like to test him again, but I don't think I'll have success.

[jaxom]

Yeah, I've always had the impression that Primarchs are either under-pointed, functionally immortal, or not worth taking.

[Tacitus]

On 3/8/2024 at 11:10 AM, Prot said:

 

(plus you're not babysitting him with Bladeguard or the Librarian trick.) 

 

Now he's less survivable, but just as many points. I'd like to test him again, but I don't think I'll have success.

Try Bodyguarding him with Terminators?  Its not as synergistic for Gulliman, but the Lion can Deep Strike so they can work with him easier than Gulliman.  There's also potential for Bodyguarding him with Vanguard Vets who can deep strike, and have some interesting play around the Vowed Objectives.