Hypothetical future Primaris Fire Support Squads

[ThaneOfTas]

So with the removal of Devastator Squads on the horizon (if they make it into the 11th ed codex i'll be flabbergasted) I figured it was worth wondering abut how their niche was being filled by the new guys.

 

Standard options for the Dev Squad:

 

Heavy Bolters

Grav-Cannon

Lascannon

Missile Launcher

Multi-Melta

Plasma Cannon.

 

Plus Heavy Flamers for DW and BA

 

Now obviously some of these have new squads to fill the role of providing access to these weapons. Hellblasters for Plasma, Eradicators for MM, Desolators for Missile Launchers and Infernus* for Flamers. 

 

Then we have a couple of almost but not quite fits. Heavy Intercessors get 1 Heavy Bolter and 4 Heavy Bolt Rifles, and Eliminators can take Las-Fusils. 

 

Personally I'd just about be willing to call the heavy Intercessors "Close Enough" but im curious to see what others think? I've never had much interest in the heavy bolter really, and I've never liked Heavy Intercessors as troops/battle line so my perspective is probably skewed here.

 

Las-fusils though really don't do it for me as a Las-cannon replacement. they just don't do the same thing, S9 is just not enough to do much of anything against most vehicles, it feels like they're more meant to take out monsters, maybe walkers/battlesuits or characters in that range.

 

So. with that in mind, we are left with the following:

 

Grav-Cannon

Lascannon

and maybe Heavy Bolters

 

So now the question is, what, if any, squads GW has in the works to make sure we keep access to these classic weapon types?

 

My theory is that we have another couple of Gravis armoured squads coming, one for Grav Cannons, and one for Lascannons. I think they'll be in Gravis because both Weapons seem potent enough to not necessarily want in 5-10 squad sizes, plus it would keep the Eradicators from standing out so much.

 

What do you guys think though? And are there any other obvious holes in the Primaris line that you think still need filling?

 

*Anyone else unreasonably annoyed that the "Desolation Squad and Infernus squad aren't called Desolator and Pyreblasters for the sake of consistency? just seems so incredibly obvious.

[Tacitus]

First:  I'm not sure Devastators are leaving.  I think they WERE, which is why we got Hellbalsters, Desolators and Infernusators - but I think they've revamped the plan and they were in the pipe before the revamp.  Terminators, Stern and Van Guard Veterans got primarisized.  I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen to Devastators.  I think Tacs are more likely to leave before Devs. 

 

I'd argue HINTS might be  the Heavy Bolter option.  They don't all have Heavy Bolters but 8 of them + 2 HB of their own vs 4 Heavy Bolters is pretty close.   The difference is on their shoulderpad, Gravis Armor, OC and so on.  We may still see Lascanon and GravCanon marines - as you said to make the Erads less "lonely" but I think the Erads are in Gravis because the MultiMelta is short ranged, not because its heavy/potent etc.  I think the Lascanon replacements were probably supposed to be the Eliminators, but they had the guns downgraded to not overwhelm the Devs. 

 

 

[AutumnEffect]

I can definitely see a grav-cannon Gravis squad as a possibility. I think that's the only thing that's really missing. 

[Lord_Ikka]

My guess would be a multi-part squad of some sort of grav cannon and lascannon Gravis, unless they finally bite the bullet and do something with Suppressors. My personal choice would be a Suppressor-style unit of grav cannons marines. Having faced both Votann and AdMech units armed with grav recently with my Knights, that anti-Vehicle 2+ is nasty, even if the actual damage is only 2 and the ap is -1/-2. A fast unit that can pump out a mass of wounding hits on vehicles would be really helpful for a Primaris SM player like me that prefers infantry to tanks, giving some much needed diversity in anti-tank units. 

Edited March 14 by Lord_Ikka

[ThaneOfTas]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

I'm not sure Devastators are leaving.  I think they WERE, which is why we got Hellbalsters, Desolators and Infernusators - but I think they've revamped the plan and they were in the pipe before the revamp.  Terminators, Stern and Van Guard Veterans got primarisized.

I'd love for that to be true, I really, really would. But believing it feelss too much like huffing hoping for me to be able to bring myself too for now.

 

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

I think Tacs are more likely to leave before Devs

Honestly I think if Devs get saved then theres about equal chance that they'll add a half-sized sprue of special and heavy weapons to the Intercessor box, turn them into Tactical Intercessors.

 

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

I'd argue HINTS might be  the Heavy Bolter option.  They don't all have Heavy Bolters but 8 of them + 2 HB of their own vs 4 Heavy Bolters is pretty close. 

Honestly I had completely forgotten that they can be taken in squads of 10 . That does make it a bit more in line yeah.

 

I honestly really hope that the Eliminators aren't the Las-cannon replacement. Something about that idea just doesn't sit right with me. However I definitely see what you mean about the Multi-meltas needing the extra protection.

[Marshal Reinhard]

A primaris grav squad seems rather given at some point, but thats the only one I feel? Most everything else has been covered

Edited March 15 by Marshal Reinhard

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The easiest way to turn Suppressors into a multi-unit option is to swap those short-barrel autocannons for lastalons (which are short-barreled lascannons).  So I think that's where we'll see those come back on Primaris infantry.

 

Now, if we get an Eradicator-ish unit with grav cannons I'd be okay with it.  I still want another grav unit for close combat to supplement Aggressors, though, I'm starting to think that's a pipe dream.

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

The easiest way to turn Suppressors into a multi-unit option is to swap those short-barrel autocannons for lastalons (which are short-barreled lascannons).  So I think that's where we'll see those come back on Primaris infantry.

 

Now, if we get an Eradicator-ish unit with grav cannons I'd be okay with it.  I still want another grav unit for close combat to supplement Aggressors, though, I'm starting to think that's a pipe dream.

We already have a 3 man squad in phobos armor toting lasfusil.  

 

15 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

A primaris grav squad seems rather given at some point, nut thats the only one i feel

A grav squad of some kind is/was almost certainly on the drawing board.  I'm not convinced it is/was Gravis.  The other thing to remember is future-proofing.  Eradicators are Gravis because Melta is short range, has to move, and has to get into "being shot at" range as well.  If we ever go back to move-or-fire heavy weapons, they're likely to be able to move AND fire like Terminators.  They may not want to do that with 36" range Grav Canon.   Maybe they do it like Hellblasters - 2/3 options one a 24" rapid fire rifle, and one a 36" HEAVY canon. 

[AutumnEffect]

11 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

A grav squad of some kind is/was almost certainly on the drawing board.  I'm not convinced it is/was Gravis.  The other thing to remember is future-proofing.  Eradicators are Gravis because Melta is short range, has to move, and has to get into "being shot at" range as well.  If we ever go back to move-or-fire heavy weapons, they're likely to be able to move AND fire like Terminators.  They may not want to do that with 36" range Grav Canon.   Maybe they do it like Hellblasters - 2/3 options one a 24" rapid fire rifle, and one a 36" HEAVY canon. 

 

It might depend also on if they want to have them available in squads of 3/6 or 5/10. While they could put a hard cap of 5 on them like Desolation Marines, I just don't personally see a 10 man grav squad as being in the cards.

I'd be fine either way though, gravis or tactical.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Thoughts:

 

1) I have been figuring that Devastators were on life support until the Primaris range effectively covered all of those options (or as many as GW wanted). The Devastator unit was a sore point for both the rules writers and GW's profits. But while cash is king for GW, their approach of only putting one or two versions of each weapon in the actual plastic kit goes quite a ways towards addressing that already.

 

So I have been thinking for a while now that they might actually introduce a veteran Devastator equivalent. Despite their name, the access to combi-weapons, and the one-per-five heavy weapon options, Sternguard are clearly upjumped Intercessors (aka "Battleline") in the current range. Vanguard Vets were already just veteran Assault troops and their inevitable Primaris variant will certainly carry that forward, though I do still expect them to show up in Shrike-pattern Phobos armor rather than Tacticus. So why not go ahead and complete the trifecta by creating a Fire Support veteran squad that has access to multiple heavy weapons in the same squad at a better rate than one-per-five? Not that the rules writers' opinions will carry much weight when GW is determining how much money they can make by selling a kit, but they can always tell those guys to "just deal with it for a year and then nerf it, overcost it, or cut the max squad size in half!"

 

So... "Devastator Veterans" coming to an FLGS near you sometime around 2027.

 

2) Grav weapons. I've been expecting a Grav Rifle squad for a while now and still do. Of course, since we're now in 10th, if there was an alternate weapon build like the Bolt Rifle, Melta Rifle, and Plasma Incinerator variants, it will now be merely a cosmetic difference until such time as GW decides that players can actually deal with a level of complexity above a coin flip.

 

BUT it would hopefully also include a one-per-five Grav Cannon option that would survive the simplifying just as the Multi-Melta did for the Eradicators.

 

3) Las weapons.

 

I don't think we're going to see distinct Las squad. That's really the Guard's thing, after all. BUT I do think that las weapons (whether Las-Talon or something new) could well be the alternate loadout whenever they get around to doing an MPK Suppressor kit. For a long time, I was thinking that they held off on doing such a kit because they were transitioning from the flight stands of the Inceptors and monobuild Suppressors to the "jumping off the ground" poses of the Jump Assault Intercessors and decided the Suppressors would look better in the latter style. Personally, I wish they'd give up forcing either of those on Suppressors and just let them be sculpted as they were meant to be - standing braced on the ground in an actual firing position rather than derpily caddying their weapon to their next firing position.

 

Sorry, bit of a digression there... anyway, another possibility that occurred to me a while back is that GW held back on the MPK Suppressor kit simply because their alternate weapon option was a Las-Talon (or what have you) and they didn't want to drop two squad kits with las options at the same time. But by ceding that ground to the much cooler Eliminators for a few years, they probably figure there will be more of a receptive audience for a fast-moving, tougher squad with a higher-powered las weapon as their alternate option.

 

Or not, but that's what I'm going with.

 

Other than all that, I don't really see much more in the way of Fire Support squads left to fill out the Primaris range. I think we're definitely at a point where the "new" squads are outnumbered by existing ETB or Firstborn squads that are simply waiting for an MPK release. For those, we still have Outriders and Infernators (Suppressors aren't technically "ETB" but they can get lumped in the same "monobuild" bucket). And for the Firstborn waiting to become real boys, we have the Vanguard Vets and the Assault Terminators... and that's about it, other than potentially a Scout Bike Squad (I defintely don't expect a Land Speeder Storm update as the Impulsor covers that option closely enough).

 

As for yet-to-be-released brand new Primaris squads? Aside from the above-mentioned Grav Rifle squad, about the only thing missing from a narrative standpoint would be an actual Close Support Gravis squad. BUT I wouldn't even put money on that as it steps on the toes of the eventual Assault Terminator squad. So even though narratively none of the many Ultima Founding chapters should have more than a couple suits of Terminator armor at best, this is a case where I can see the design of such a unit being 86'd early on.

 

All right, sorry for the length of whatever that was,

[TheArtilleryman]

Centurions can have grav cannons, heavy bolters or lascannons, so maybe they already fill this role? I think the heavy intercessors also kind of sort the heavy bolters, as do the inceptors (which also have plasma).

 

Unless they get rid of centurions I don’t think there needs to be any other devastator units to come. Doesn’t mean they won’t create something else random of course; you never know.

Edited March 17 by TheArtilleryman

[Guest Triszin]

I don't think we'll see a full devastator squad again.

 

I think they are getting side grade replacements.

 

Heavy Bolters

Grav-Cannon

Lascannon ( elimators with Las fussils) phobos

Missile Launcher (desolators) intercessor

Multi-Melta (eradicators) gravis

Plasma Cannon (intercessor plasma squads) intercessor

 

 

 

[Tacitus]

6 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Centurions can have grav cannons, heavy bolters or lascannons, so maybe they already fill this role? I think the heavy intercessors also kind of sort the heavy bolters, as do the inceptors (which also have plasma).

 

Unless they get rid of centurions I don’t think there needs to be any other devastator units to come. Doesn’t mean they won’t create something else random of course; you never know.

I think Centurions go before Devastators go.  They've already excluded Cents from a number of rules in the past like the Rapid Fire rule.   I still think Devs were leaving but no longer are.  I'm assuming when Lord Nord says veteran kit he means upsized - and yeah I think Vanguard Vets and Devastators just get re-released in a Primaris size.   I think we already have Las in the Eliminator squads.  I think if we get Grav they look more like Hellblasters than Eradicators. 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

One thing I forgot to mention (yeah, after typing ALL of that, I still left something out...)

 

When we see another Tacticus Fire Support squad, I do still think there's a strong possibility that it will end up being a dual-build kit with the MPK Infernus Squad. There's just very little to add to the Infernus Marines to make them worth releasing as an MPK squad, but including them as an alternate build for a Grav Rifle squad or what-have-you would make sense.

 

The fly in this soup is that the Infernus Squad was very deliberately changed to being a Close Support Squad with the Marine Codex. Assuming they carry that forward, then it might require some photoshopping of the painted-up Infernators on the box and instructions (but more likely the instructions would only have the "new" Fire Support squad - any assembly pictures of the Infernus options wouldn't include the force org transfers.)

 

Good news there of course is it means that it would be possible to finally give the Infernus Sergeants access to melee weapons and maybe the odd Plasma Pistol or Hand Flamer.

[Dr. Clock]

On 3/18/2024 at 12:43 PM, Lord Nord in Gravis Armour said:

The fly in this soup is that the Infernus Squad was very deliberately changed to being a Close Support Squad with the Marine Codex.

Yeah - GW's role designation system is pretty inconsistent and, I'd argue, incoherent. 

 

I choose to ignore the assignment of Infernus to Close Support just as I ignore the assignment of Assault Intercessors to Close Support.

 

I choose to think of the 'close support' in general as a combination of 'rapid response' and 'dedicated melee' units. Infernus are neither of those things, and indeed are presented with heavy support chevrons in most instances.

 

Same but different with assault intercessors. Are you gonna say with a straight face that a regular battle company can only have 20 basic infantry marines with basic melee kit but will have 60 bolt rifle intercessors at any time? And there are also 200 reservists in the chapter with just more bolters, who are likewise never supplied with chainswords?

 

No. My 20 assault intercessors are battleline, thanks very much.

 

Also annoying: the backflips needed to pretend that assault intercessors with jump packs shouldn't just be named 'assault squads'. Why is there an organizational difference between several kinds of identically named units? 'Intercessor' should just be 'battleline', full stop.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Nephaston]

On 3/17/2024 at 9:04 PM, Lord Nord in Gravis Armour said:

So... "Devastator Veterans" coming to an FLGS near you sometime around 2027.

I'm still hoping for an eventual Devastator Terminator unit to finish the Triad there.

 

For an actual Devastator Veteran one could argue we've already seen one in the company heroes line like the other two represent the tactical and assault niche. Why else would they sculpt asymmetric armour?

Either that or Devastator Intercessors with only Heavy Bolters.

 

For Grav I would guess mini-Tor Garadons, like how Aggressors are mini-calgars.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Tor is an interesting model to bring up in this discussion because he carries a grav gun.  Not a cannon mind you, but the standard small-arms grav gun.  That and the Techmarine pistol are the only grav weapons in the Primaris range.  It makes me curious if we're going to see more regular grav guns appear elsewhere in the range, or if at some point Tor's will be the singular example and only grav cannons get representation.

 

 

[ThaneOfTas]

One other weapon type that im curious about getting more representation is the Neo-Volkite range. we've now seen a few different pistols with it, it would be interesting to see Neo-Volkite versions of the Charger, Caliver or Culverin.

[War of the Eagle]

Yeah I want some neovolkite helblasters

[Orange Knight]

I would like for them to focus on weapon profiles that we can't find elsewhere.

 

-The Heavy Intercessors and Inceptors basically cover the "Heavy Bolter" style weapon, more or less.

-The Desolation squad ultimately covers the Las Cannon/Missile archetype profile.

-The Hellblasters, Inceptors, Eradicators cover Plasmas and Meltas very effectively.

 

Grav is a glaring omission. I would love a new Grav focused Unit.

 

I like the idea of fire support Terminators mentioned above, but I would just as easily enjoy some Heavy Gravis units with shoulder mounted Grav Guns/Cannons.

 

Volkite is another weapon, but one that is more niche. The profile has a less defined purpose.

 

[Karhedron]

Grav guns are a missing niche if Devastators do go to Legends. Although I suppose that Centurions might be considered to fill that niche. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Hvy intercessors are not remotely a replacement for a squad of hvy bolters.

id say suppressors are a closer replacement of the hvy bolter devs than HIs are.

 

personally I think a squad toting 3 assault cannons would be dope.

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Hvy intercessors are not remotely a replacement for a squad of hvy bolters.

id say suppressors are a closer replacement of the hvy bolter devs than HIs are.

 

personally I think a squad toting 3 assault cannons would be dope.

 

Why not?

Massed Str 5 shots at range with AP. They can even take multiple actual Heavy Bolters in a squad.

 

If anything they are better than HB Devastators as they have better movement and objective secured.

 

And the Inceptors have assault versions of a Heavy Bolter.

Edited March 22 by Orange Knight

[Karhedron]

I would actually say that HInts and Inceptors are better than HB Devs. I cannot remember the last timeI saw anyone fielding HB Devs. But HInts are tanky with good Objective Control while Inceptors get a lot of shots and decent mobility as well as native Deep Strike.

 

I feel like a Primaris HB squad would be a box ticking unit rather than actually meeting a need in the SM roster. If you want massed fire then 3 ATVs with OGCs are an option.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Why not?

Massed Str 5 shots at range with AP. They can even take multiple actual Heavy Bolters in a squad.

 

If anything they are better than HB Devastators as they have better movement and objective secured.

 

And the Inceptors have assault versions of a Heavy Bolter.

Better doesn’t mean they’re a replacement for.

 

S5 AP-1 D2 is a notable difference in killing power. So while you might get more S5 shots with HIs, each shot is less likely to cause a wound, and will require two shots to put a marine down, meanwhile HBs are more likely to cause a wound, and each shot kills a marine.

 

5 HIs get you 10 S5 shots, 80% at AP0 D1, meaning less likely to kill a standard marine than HBs.

 

HB devs you get 12 S5 shots, each one killing a marine.