Hypothetical future Primaris Fire Support Squads

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

5 HIs get you 10 S5 shots, 80% at AP0 D1, meaning less likely to kill a standard marine than HBs.

 

HB devs you get 12 S5 shots, each one killing a marine.

So we're comparing 5 HINTS that only get the one HB, vs 5 Devs that get all of their HBs as opposed to 10 HINTS who get two, and 10 Devs who are still... only four.  And 5 now much less than even a Heavy Bolt Rifle.   I also notice we have inaccurately represented the HINT Bolt Rifle as AP0 when it is in fact the same AP-1 as the Heavy Bolter.  Finally I notice we have gone from S5 AP- D1 as meager and paltry to S5 -1 D2 as each shot "killing a marine".  I have the sneaking suspicion based on our inaccuracies and wild opinion swing that artificially limiting HINTS and Devs to 5 mans - which overwhelming slant in favor of the Devs - may not have been intelectually honest. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, Tacitus said:

So we're comparing 5 HINTS that only get the one HB, vs 5 Devs that get all of their HBs as opposed to 10 HINTS who get two, and 10 Devs who are still... only four.  And 5 now much less than even a Heavy Bolt Rifle.   I also notice we have inaccurately represented the HINT Bolt Rifle as AP0 when it is in fact the same AP-1 as the Heavy Bolter.  Finally I notice we have gone from S5 AP- D1 as meager and paltry to S5 -1 D2 as each shot "killing a marine".  I have the sneaking suspicion based on our inaccuracies and wild opinion swing that artificially limiting HINTS and Devs to 5 mans - which overwhelming slant in favor of the Devs - may not have been intelectually honest. 

It would be weird to compare a 10 man unit with a 5 man unit.

 

both units (currently) come in 5 or 10 man varieties, and as such it doesn’t make sense to compare a 5 man dev squad to a 10 man HI squad.

 

you are correct I did make a mistake on the HBR’s AP, but it doesn’t change too much since it’s still only D1 so you still need twice as many HBRs to kill a single marine compared to HBs, and HBs are the premier anti-MEQ weapon.

 

and this is all before taking any special weapons on the dev sgt into consideration.

 

Edited March 23 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Tacitus]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

It would be weird to compare a 10 man unit with a 5 man unit.

 

both units (currently) come in 5 or 10 man varieties, and as such it doesn’t make sense to compare a 5 man dev squad to a 10 man HI squad.

 

you are correct I did make a mistake on the HBR’s AP, but it doesn’t change too much since it’s still only D1 so you still need twice as many HBRs to kill a single marine compared to HBs, and HBs are the premier anti-MEQ weapon.

 

and this is all before taking any special weapons on the dev sgt into consideration.

 

You're going to keep this up?  10 Man Dev Squads and 10 man HINT squads are apples and apples.  They both get their full upgrades.  A 5man HINT and a 5 Man Dev Squad are not both able to max. 

[DemonGSides]

Yeah I think if you're looking for Heavy Bolter killing power, I would prefer a 5 man dev squad to a 5 man HINT squad.

That being said, that's like, literally never been a sole consideration.  So in an extreme vacuum taking very little else into account, yes, 5 man dev beats 5 man HINT in the raw damage dealing department (But not even really by much).  When comparing 10 man squads, the Devastators are worse by about a damage per round of shooting, so very comparable, but also more expensive for slightly less damage (I just ignored the sgt's pistol since most shooting will be out of it's range)

That's all assuming a power armored enemy that they're shooting at.

Basically; for the points, I'm taking something on the dev's other than Heavy Bolters regardless.  But I wouldn't mind taking HINT's for their situation, whereas I can't really see a situation where HB Devs make a ton of sense. 

Edited March 23 by DemonGSides

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

I'm not holding my breath for a neo-volkite squad. Wouldn't complain if it did happen, but I like the idea that it's a prized bit of armament that the Mechanicus is only doling out in the form of a handful of pistols per chapter.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 3/23/2024 at 8:22 AM, Tacitus said:

You're going to keep this up?  10 Man Dev Squads and 10 man HINT squads are apples and apples.  They both get their full upgrades.  A 5man HINT and a 5 Man Dev Squad are not both able to max. 

Editing in process

You need a 10 man HI squad to put damage a 5 man dev squad.

 

4 HBRs and a HB in a perfect round of shooting is 8 D1 shots and 3 D2 shots, meaning a 5 man HI squad kills 7 2W targets like most marines in a perfect round of shooting.

 

a 5 man dev squad has 12  D2 and 1-2 D1 shots meaning in a perfect round of shooting they can kill up to 13 2W targets like most marines.

 

to out damage HIs you against 2W targets, you have to take a 10 man HI squad which costs 80 points more than 5 Devs.

 

Edited March 25 by Inquisitor_Lensoven
Misremembered number of shots for HBRs.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 3/23/2024 at 9:48 AM, DemonGSides said:

Yeah I think if you're looking for Heavy Bolter killing power, I would prefer a 5 man dev squad to a 5 man HINT squad.

That being said, that's like, literally never been a sole consideration.  So in an extreme vacuum taking very little else into account, yes, 5 man dev beats 5 man HINT in the raw damage dealing department (But not even really by much).  When comparing 10 man squads, the Devastators are worse by about a damage per round of shooting, so very comparable, but also more expensive for slightly less damage (I just ignored the sgt's pistol since most shooting will be out of it's range)

That's all assuming a power armored enemy that they're shooting at.

Basically; for the points, I'm taking something on the dev's other than Heavy Bolters regardless.  But I wouldn't mind taking HINT's for their situation, whereas I can't really see a situation where HB Devs make a ton of sense. 

Sgt can take a combi weapon for anti-infantry 2+ or a 2 shot storm bolter.

 

the 5 man dev squad easily out damages a 5 man HI squad into 2W targets. 
 

a 5 man dev squad is hands down better into 2W targets than a 5 man HI squad

 

a 10 man HI squad is hands down better than a 10 man dev squad.

 

yet still in neither comparison is apples to apples because they have different roles, and are intended to operate differently.

 

it that different intent of use, that makes HIs not a replacement for HB devs imho.

 

devs are meant to sit back and shoot from afar, maybe on an objective, maybe not.

 

HIs are specifically meant to hold objectives, and their T, and W stats combined with their ability and OC makes them really good at holding midfield objectives, so sitting HIs back to hold your back field objective is not the best use for them. Especially if you mix in an MCHBR captain with them, you add in a solid melee threat to deter harassing charges, or charges to try and take or contest the cap, from units that aren’t hard hitting melee units.

Edited March 25 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[DemonGSides]

"Easily out damage" is doing a lot of work. It's one more dead marine. Whereas the opposite is true for the 10 man variants.  And the Sgt is barely a consideration, even with a combibolter. 

 

Also looking at more than just damage is probably worthwhile for comparisons sake, but I think we are getting a bit in the weeds about the whole thing. 

 

And like I said, I can't imagine taking a heavy bolter devastator any way it shakes out. HINT have some use cases even with their anemic weapons. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

"Easily out damage" is doing a lot of work. It's one more dead marine. Whereas the opposite is true for the 10 man variants.  And the Sgt is barely a consideration, even with a combibolter. 

 

Also looking at more than just damage is probably worthwhile for comparisons sake, but I think we are getting a bit in the weeds about the whole thing. 

 

And like I said, I can't imagine taking a heavy bolter devastator any way it shakes out. HINT have some use cases even with their anemic weapons. 

If we’re claiming that HIs are the successors of HB devs i think damage output is very important.

 

also where are you getting 1 more dead marine?

 

perfect shooting phase for HIs kills 7 two wound marines. Devs kill at least 12 two wound marines. No matter how you average it out, if you average it out the same way for both the ratio won’t change.

[Orange Knight]

I'm sorry, how are you getting 12 dead marines?

 

You mean in a hypothetical where every wound roll goes through and the opponent fails every save? It's not how we judge units because optimum situations are not likely.

 

My original point is that Heavy Intercessors engage infantry at a similar range, and with a similar profile to Heavy Bolters. Their damage is slightly lower, but the unit is better in every other way - more durable and more flexible.

[jaxom]

Do the specifics of lethality matter to concept design? We know GW comes up with rules after models have been green-lit.

 

The primaris fire support squads have trended towards using new, Cawl weapons. I don't think they'd use heavy bolters. Personally, I've always been partial to Suppressors with onslaught gatling cannons. Squad size of three means 24 total shots which isn't as oppressive as a squad of 5 with 40 shots. They could keep the Suppression Fire rule while Suppressors with accelerator autocannons could get a new special rule to make them more useful against tanks. Probably won't happen, but *shrug*

[DemonGSides]

On 3/25/2024 at 4:32 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

If we’re claiming that HIs are the successors of HB devs i think damage output is very important.

 

also where are you getting 1 more dead marine?

 

perfect shooting phase for HIs kills 7 two wound marines. Devs kill at least 12 two wound marines. No matter how you average it out, if you average it out the same way for both the ratio won’t change.

Unfortunately my dice have NEVER been good enough to do any of those numbers, on either side of your comparison, so I think we're just living in different worlds.

Edited March 27 by DemonGSides

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

Unfortunately my dice have NEVER been good enough to do any of those numbers, on either side of your comparison, so I think we're just living in different worlds.

The point being, that it’s unlikely that 5 HIs could average more dead marines in a single round of shooting than 5 HB devs, and if you want HIs to put damage devs on average you have to spend 80 more points.

[DemonGSides]

I didn't say they could average more, just that the difference you're describing isn't worth the debate, when the other uses for HINT vastly outweigh "HB Devastators", who also have way better ways to spend the points currently (And if you're REALLY looking for the "Can kill an okay amount of marines per turn", there are even better options in THAT lane that are similarly cost effective).

Basically, why bother with HB Devastators (Which are more expensive) when you could use those points for HINT which are comparable (Yes technically weaker in damage, but better in so many other ways), and then also get something else (Since you saved points over all).  That is the real arithmetic worth doing in your head instead of just HBDEV does more damage than HINT.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

15 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

I didn't say they could average more, just that the difference you're describing isn't worth the debate, when the other uses for HINT vastly outweigh "HB Devastators", who also have way better ways to spend the points currently (And if you're REALLY looking for the "Can kill an okay amount of marines per turn", there are even better options in THAT lane that are similarly cost effective).

Basically, why bother with HB Devastators (Which are more expensive) when you could use those points for HINT which are comparable (Yes technically weaker in damage, but better in so many other ways), and then also get something else (Since you saved points over all).  That is the real arithmetic worth doing in your head instead of just HBDEV does more damage than HINT.

The question isn’t which is better than the other, the topic was are HIs a replacement for HB devs.

 

the answer is no.

devs whole point is firepower.

 

HIs are objective holders, and if you’re using them as a replacement for devs you’re not getting the most out of them.

[jaxom]

I think it's more telling that Heavy Intercessors are designed as a battleline unit and not a fire support unit.

[DemonGSides]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The question isn’t which is better than the other, the topic was are HIs a replacement for HB devs.

 

the answer is no.

devs whole point is firepower.

 

HIs are objective holders, and if you’re using them as a replacement for devs you’re not getting the most out of them.

 

The question is whether the firepower that Devs put out is worth more than all the other benefits that HINTs provide for marginally less damage.

 

And the answer is a resounding no unless you're hyper specifically edge casing.

 

If I'm bringing Devastators, it's sure as never going to be a heavy bolter devastator. For their cost, they are anemic compared to the outrageous amount of options we have for that same damage profile.

 

Now, give them all rocket launchers or Las cannons and weve got an interesting discussion. There's not a game of Warhammer that I've ever played on where I'm desperate to kill 1-2 more marine per round over wanting to be able to efficiently and effectively hold a point, as well as do ok damage.

 

Are HINTs slightly less strong than a HB dev? Yes, as literally EVERYONE HAS SAID, multiple times.

 

The point is that there's not many worlds where you're better off taking a HB Dev over a HINT, because the decision on what to bring to bear is a lot bigger than just "HB Dev gets one more dead marine per turn".  If that's the only access you care about when building a list, you're in for a bad time in 10th edition. 

Edited March 28 by DemonGSides
Snark removed. No need for it.

[Helias_Tancred]

Grav? 

 

And then it's fini. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5 by Helias_Tancred

[Tacitus]

On 3/28/2024 at 12:37 PM, DemonGSides said:

 

 

Are HINTs slightly less strong than a HB dev? Yes, as literally EVERYONE HAS SAID, multiple times.

 

Actually I didn't.  I pointed out 200 points of HINTS is theoretically better than 200 Points of HB Devs.  Devs are Front Loaded.  You're really comparing 5 bolters and 2HB against 8 Heavy Bolt Rifles. By the time they're both full, the HINTS catch up even pull ahead in my estimation. 

[DemonGSides]

I agree with that, but he's just going to punt it back to "I was only talking about 5 man squads", and we've already one circle around this track.

[Blindhamster]

On 4/6/2024 at 3:32 AM, DemonGSides said:

I agree with that, but he's just going to punt it back to "I was only talking about 5 man squads", and we've already one circle around this track.

What’s the point point in comparing them like that when the devastators cost 20% more than the HINTs, the only reasonable way to do that comparison is to reduce the devastator squad to 4 models 

[DemonGSides]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

What’s the point point in comparing them like that when the devastators cost 20% more than the HINTs, the only reasonable way to do that comparison is to reduce the devastator squad to 4 models 

 

Price point is just one of many levels to compare them on. We can't effectively reduce a squad down to 4 because the game doesn't currently allow for it. So you factor in that extra cost as part of the cost of doing business with a HB Dev squad when comparing them to HINTs.

 

Hence why I said "The question is whether the firepower that Devs put out is worth more than all the other benefits that HINTs provide for marginally less damage.", especially when you consider that the damage between the two is borderline negligible. 

[Blindhamster]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Price point is just one of many levels to compare them on. We can't effectively reduce a squad down to 4 because the game doesn't currently allow for it. So you factor in that extra cost as part of the cost of doing business with a HB Dev squad when comparing them to HINTs.

 

Hence why I said "The question is whether the firepower that Devs put out is worth more than all the other benefits that HINTs provide for marginally less damage.", especially when you consider that the damage between the two is borderline negligible. 

So.. its
8 strength 5 AP -1 D1 shots hitting on 2s (assuming stationary) + 3 strength 5 AP -1 D2 shots hitting on 3s (assuming stationary)

v

12 strength 5 AP -1 D2 shots hitting on 3s (assuming stationary) + sergeant weapon of choice

 

The HINTs being so much more durable between more wounds, higher toughness and their special ability coupled with obsec makes them feel like the far superior choice considering they're also cheaper.

Suppose the thing is, as others said, nobody uses heavy bolter devastators anyway - which is probably the point.

 

 

On the main point of the topic though...

 

- lascannon devastators are (broadly) covered by the las fusil eliminators surely? it's not a 1:1 but its relatively close conceptually.

- plasmacannon devastators are the hellblasters or plasma inceptors

- heavy flamer would be infernus squad

- heavy bolter are arguably HINTs or Bolter Inceptors

- multimelta devastators are eradicators

 

so yeah its only really the grav ones that aren't broadly covered.

 

I do like the notion of a veteran shooty unit focused on ranged dakka though. I love the master crafted heavy bolter dude in the company heroes!

[DemonGSides]

23 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

So.. its
8 strength 5 AP -1 D1 shots hitting on 2s (assuming stationary) + 3 strength 5 AP -1 D2 shots hitting on 3s (assuming stationary)

v

12 strength 5 AP -1 D2 shots hitting on 3s (assuming stationary) + sergeant weapon of choice

 

The HINTs being so much more durable between more wounds, higher toughness and their special ability coupled with obsec makes them feel like the far superior choice considering they're also cheaper.

Suppose the thing is, as others said, nobody uses heavy bolter devastators anyway - which is probably the point.

It's me.  I'm others.  That's literally been my whole point.  Another poster was adamant that they weren't comparable and I said they very much were, and when you do, the HINTS come out way ahead.

Edited April 10 by DemonGSides

[AutumnEffect]

I do think it would be kinda neat to have a squad armed with Onslaught Gatling Cannons. 
Very unnecessary, but neat. 

 

5 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

I do like the notion of a veteran shooty unit focused on ranged dakka though. I love the master crafted heavy bolter dude in the company heroes!

I always thought Sternguard were the veteran shooty unit.

Edited April 10 by AutumnEffect