Hypothetical future Primaris Fire Support Squads

[Blindhamster]

2 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

I do think it would be kinda neat to have a squad armed with Onslaught Gatling Cannons. 
Very unnecessary, but neat. 

 

I always thought Sternguard were the veteran shooty unit.

They’re the veteran tactical unit imo, a veteran unit with longer range would make sense, to represent the vets from the devastator company, for example 

[TheArtilleryman]

7 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

They’re the veteran tactical unit imo, a veteran unit with longer range would make sense, to represent the vets from the devastator company, for example 

If we’re going off the traditional Codex Astartes, there aren’t really any “vets” in the devastator company, because the dev squads are the first place new recruits go after leaving the scouts. Once they’ve had sufficient experience in the devastator they go on to assault and then tactical, and eventually the first company. 
 

Of course, I’m talking old school here and Primaris guys might follow something different. Tbh I’m confused about how chapter structure works in post-rift times.

[AutumnEffect]

25 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

They’re the veteran tactical unit imo, a veteran unit with longer range would make sense, to represent the vets from the devastator company, for example 

 

I see what you mean now.

 

A veteran heavy support unit would probably have some archaeotech weapons from the Chapter vaults then, like how Sternguard have their specialist bolt rifles and vanguard have their mix of power weapons and relic blades.

 

Giving them heavy vulkite weapons would be pretty sweet.

Edited April 10 by AutumnEffect

[Blindhamster]

2 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

If we’re going off the traditional Codex Astartes, there aren’t really any “vets” in the devastator company, because the dev squads are the first place new recruits go after leaving the scouts. Once they’ve had sufficient experience in the devastator they go on to assault and then tactical, and eventually the first company. 
 

Of course, I’m talking old school here and Primaris guys might follow something different. Tbh I’m confused about how chapter structure works in post-rift times.

 

I know that the standard route a marine went through was devastator - assault - tactical but I always assume that there will be some marines who excel in particular areas and keep doing that thing. In terms of post rift, I think it's broadly the same, in that marines still go through the various companies, primaris still go through being scouts before they get the carapace for example. I guess just the specific units they train as may vary. In "darkness in the blood" one of the rookie marines is in an incursor squad being trained for example.

I guess you're right that they wouldnt be veterans within the dev company per say, though the idea of veteran devastators being the captains company heroes would be cool (i.e. current company heroes are the battle companies heroes, which is why they represent all disciplines maybe.

But either way, I like the idea of a bunch of veterans all with fancy heavy weapons! Seems cool idea to me.

[AutumnEffect]

There aren't Vanguard or Bladeguard Veterans in the close assault company or Sternguard in the Battleline companies, so there not being any veterans in the heavy support company wouldn't prevent there being veterans armed with those weapons.

[jaxom]

6 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

 

I know that the standard route a marine went through was devastator - assault - tactical but I always assume that there will be some marines who excel in particular areas and keep doing that thing. In terms of post rift, I think it's broadly the same, in that marines still go through the various companies, primaris still go through being scouts before they get the carapace for example. I guess just the specific units they train as may vary. In "darkness in the blood" one of the rookie marines is in an incursor squad being trained for example.

I guess you're right that they wouldnt be veterans within the dev company per say, though the idea of veteran devastators being the captains company heroes would be cool (i.e. current company heroes are the battle companies heroes, which is why they represent all disciplines maybe.

But either way, I like the idea of a bunch of veterans all with fancy heavy weapons! Seems cool idea to me.

 

The progression through Codex Companies is the same in the Era Indomitus as it was previously. The only big difference is that squad role has replaced squad type. For example, the 9th Company is the all Fire Support Company instead of all Devastator Company. Each marine is expected to master each set of gear and tactics for each Fire Support squad type as part of that role. Similarly, a Close Support Squad member would be expected to master Incursor load-out with Phobos Armour, Assault Intercessor load-out with Tacticus Armour, and Inceptor load-out with Gravis armour. It was part of Guilliman's 'totally-not-changing-Codex-Astartes' reforms; to expand the tactical and strategic options of each Company. See next comment for stuff about veterans.

 

9 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

If we’re going off the traditional Codex Astartes, there aren’t really any “vets” in the devastator company, because the dev squads are the first place new recruits go after leaving the scouts. Once they’ve had sufficient experience in the devastator they go on to assault and then tactical, and eventually the first company. 
 

Of course, I’m talking old school here and Primaris guys might follow something different. Tbh I’m confused about how chapter structure works in post-rift times.

 

A Marine is not guaranteed to advance through the Companies, so Veterans (without Terminator Honors) could exist in any (non-scout) Company. There were two types of veterans (veterans originally having a higher Leadership than normal marines): First Company Veterans, and Veterans. Originally, this was differentiated by Terminator Honours; Command Squads and Veteran Squads made up of First Company Veterans had an extra attack. The Veteran Squad had the same weapon options as a Tactical Squad, but the Command Squad could be "Company Heroes," and could reflect Tactical veterans (take two special weapons) or Devastator (take two heavy weapons) veterans. This was during a time when Marine melee was purposefully anemic, hence no options for power weapons or anything similar.

 

Fifth edition added Sternguard and Vanguard, which further differentiated First Company Veterans from just being Tactical Marines with better stats. By way of contrast, Dark Angels did not get access to Sternguard or Vanguard because their First Company only deployed in Terminator armour. Command Squads got amalgamated, and it depended on the Chapter if they were drawn from the Captain's Company or elsewhere in the Chapter, but all got the same statline as First Company Veterans. You could now have a Reserve Company Captain with a Bike and give the same to his Command Squad; though really I think this was for the White Scar players. The weapon options no long let you have 'Devastator' veterans armed with heavy weapons and had more focus on melee options; 5th edition was the beginning of Marines have good dedicated melee units and this was usually expressed at the HQ and Elite level.

 

6 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

There aren't Vanguard or Bladeguard Veterans in the close assault company or Sternguard in the Battleline companies, so there not being any veterans in the heavy support company wouldn't prevent there being veterans armed with those weapons.

 

I think this is an extension of Space Marine design from 5th edition onward. Elite units became more focused on melee or 'tactical' weapon load-out (Sternguard, Stormbolter & Powerfist terminators). I think it's because melee is archetypically more heroic than shooting.

Edited April 10 by jaxom

[AutumnEffect]

18 minutes ago, jaxom said:

dfbdfb

 

I'm sorry Brother, I must not be keeping up with Scout slang and a search through the logis engines for a translation has given me some... interesting results.

 

What does dfbdfb mean?

[terminator ultra]

1 minute ago, AutumnEffect said:

What does dfbdfb mean?

acronyns have gotten out of control...

[Primarch Betalio]

Grav and volkite should be updated:

 

1- has anti vehicle 3+, anti-infantry 5+, devastating wounds. ( grav)

 

 

Volkite- anti- Infantry 3+, sustained hits, anti-beast/ calvary 3+.

[jaxom]

25 minutes ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

I'm sorry Brother, I must not be keeping up with Scout slang and a search through the logis engines for a translation has given me some... interesting results.

 

What does dfbdfb mean?

24 minutes ago, terminator ultra said:

acronyns have gotten out of control...

 I was worried about losing what I was typing, so I submitted it before it was done. I finished it in edit mode.

[AutumnEffect]

10 minutes ago, jaxom said:

 I was worried about losing what I was typing, so I submitted it before it was done. I finished it in edit mode.

Oh, haha, gotcha.

[Beta galactosidase]

14 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

 

I always thought Sternguard were the veteran shooty unit.

 

I think they want to three different squads that map onto the three squad types in a battle company.  It's structuralism for its own sake.

 

It's interesting that they say this because they love the Company Heroes heavy guy.  IRL infantry teams the machine gun does most of the work and the other members help him shoot better by keeping him from being  suppressed.  I also really like the heavy from company of heroes, which means I want the rules to work better  for having one heavy in a squad of non-heavies.  It's cooler it's like teamwork.

 

The current veterans don't map onto the battle company.  Battleline mean a line of squads supporting each other and sternguard are used when its not possible to have a line of squads supporting each other, they're not battleline. 

 

The Great Companies have Long Fang, which is because of the needs of the great company, and they also don't have non-vet devastators. 

 

 

[Nephaston]

Imo Veterans shouldn't have been split in 5th, and instead should've just had blanket access to any gear necessary for whatever they need during deployment (aka whatever the player wants to kit them with) but that would've meant a super-sized kit with every weapon times 5, which simply isn't feasible. Or at least it wasn't feasible in 5th, so a bespoke kit for two distinct types of non-terminator veterans was the way to go.

 

4 hours ago, jaxom said:

Dark Angels did not get access to Sternguard or Vanguard because their First Company only deployed in Terminator armour.

Which I always found weird; not every veteran automatically moves to the first company, as evidenced by battle companies having company veterans. It's not like veterancy automatically rewards membership to the inner circle, rather than eligibility for consideration.

[Orange Knight]

GW made a mistake by over detailing the chapter organisation.

 

It's made things like new units, or any inconsistency extremely glaring. The Primaris don't really fit into the organisation at all.

 

We need a revised chapter organisation chart that is much more loose and flexible.

[Karhedron]

On 4/10/2024 at 6:39 AM, AutumnEffect said:

I do think it would be kinda neat to have a squad armed with Onslaught Gatling Cannons. 

 

You can always take a couple of ATVs with OGCs. The ATVs are more like tough infantry than vehicles already. 

[Karhedron]

On 4/10/2024 at 1:03 AM, Blindhamster said:

- lascannon devastators are (broadly) covered by the las fusil eliminators surely? it's not a 1:1 but its relatively close conceptually.

 

Conceptually maybe but in effect there is a big difference between 4 S12 shots and 3 S9 shots. LC Devastators are a viable anti-tank units but las fusil eliminators have to be lucky to do more than chip damage.

[TheArtilleryman]

34 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Conceptually maybe but in effect there is a big difference between 4 S12 shots and 3 S9 shots. LC Devastators are a viable anti-tank units but las fusil eliminators have to be lucky to do more than chip damage.

They were comparable last edition but with the big bump in vehicle toughness and lascannon strength and las fusils staying the same, there’s not really any contest.

[AutumnEffect]

36 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Conceptually maybe but in effect there is a big difference between 4 S12 shots and 3 S9 shots. LC Devastators are a viable anti-tank units but las fusil eliminators have to be lucky to do more than chip damage.

 

The maths on the differences between the two make for grim reading on the part of the eliminators.
 

4 Lascannon Devs vs
 Leman Russ: 5.33 wounds

Gladiator: 7 wounds

Fire Prism: 7 wounds

3 Las Fusil Eliminators with Devastating Wounds Active vs
Leman Russ: 1.94 wounds

Gladiator: 2.14 wounds

Fire Prism: 3.11

 

You get more than double the average number of wounds from a Lascannon armed Dev squad. But said Dev squad is 60% more expensive so... make of it what you will.

[DemonGSides]

Las Fusil definitely had a more robust anti tank role in the last edition. This edition they aren't quite useful for that, better at taking out light armor and heavier infantry.

 

I don't see as much use case for them compare to their normal sniper rifles. 

[Blindhamster]

4 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Conceptually maybe but in effect there is a big difference between 4 S12 shots and 3 S9 shots. LC Devastators are a viable anti-tank units but las fusil eliminators have to be lucky to do more than chip damage.

The two units didnt used to have the level of difference in strength dont forget, but yeah I guess now the difference is larger

[Evil Eye]

On 4/11/2024 at 11:26 AM, Orange Knight said:

GW made a mistake by over detailing the chapter organisation.

 

It's made things like new units, or any inconsistency extremely glaring. The Primaris don't really fit into the organisation at all.

 

We need a revised chapter organisation chart that is much more loose and flexible.

Or, you know, they could have made the Primaris fit within the chapter organization?

[Orange Knight]

4 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

Or, you know, they could have made the Primaris fit within the chapter organization?

 

Too much detail can stifle creative freedom. 

 

Although, I imagine once the range has fully transitioned they'll re-do the force org with the various primaris units.

Edited May 1 by Orange Knight

[Evil Eye]

8 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Too much detail can stifle creative freedom. 

And too much creative freedom can result in complete directionless nonsense.

[Orange Knight]

Both can be true.

 

I think that a vague setting is too open to interpretation and can lack identity. 

 

On the other hand, having a literal list of every squad and vehicle in a chapter, and the company they belong in, is not conducive to creative freedom within the framework of that chapter.

[jaxom]

16 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Too much detail can stifle creative freedom. 

 

Although, I imagine once the range has fully transitioned they'll re-do the force org with the various primaris units.

 

21 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

Or, you know, they could have made the Primaris fit within the chapter organization?

 

 As fun as this has all been, if you've not had the chance to read Insignium Astartes by Alan Merret, I do recommend it. It's the most detailed description of the in-universe Codex Astartes ever published by Games Workshop. I've got some excerpts to share. If one wants to consider how Primaris squads fit, just replace Tactical with Battleline, Assault with Close Support, and Devastator with Fire Support... it's what GW did. One can even look at it like an in-universe translation issue:

 

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The original Codex was compiled approximately ten thousand years ago in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy. It is not known what form the original took: it may have been a manuscript or it may have been a compilation of holo-files or even some combination. Of course manuscript copies were made and distributed. The oldest surviving copy of the Codex is reputed to be the Apocrypha of Skaros. The Liber Arcanum of Grand Marshall Tolof and the Holo-Record 442/33508; Gant Manuscript v2 of the Ceris Archive have some claim to this honour as well. Over the millennia the copies have been copied and recopied many times in order to preserve them. Inevitably, mistakes occur and so it is unlikely that any two copies of the Codex will be identical. Furthermore, the work is constantly being reanalysed and reinterpreted. The original prose style of Roboute is at best archaic and in some cases almost unintelligible. This has led to many varied interpretations over the centuries and to many situations where two entirely different doctrines have been legitimately claimed as 'official Codex' at the same time.

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A nice touch of historiographic accuracy. It also lets GW circle the square when it comes to any contradictions in their own lore.

 

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In the 41st Millennium there are relatively few of the original Codex Chapters surviving as they have been either destroyed in battle or disbanded. Through the ages other Chapters have developed organisations and heraldries that are so variant with the Codex that they can no longer be considered as such. In truth most Chapters retain the basic organisation and markings or something close to the original though only a few can claim to be Codex Chapters.

 

In second edition, this was part of why the Ultramarines stood out. Unlike the vast majority of Chapters, who only retained the basic organisation and markings of the Codex, the Ultramarine followed their copy of it to the the letter.

 

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The Codex Astartes has a large section devoted to the organisation of a Space Marine Chapter. It states that a Chapter should consist of ten fighting companies each numbering a hundred Space Marines. Each Company consists of ten squads of ten warriors of which one is a Sergeant. In addition to the squads each Company has its own Captain, Chaplain, Apothecary and Standard Bearer.... In theory, the actual number of combatants in a Company can exceed the notional one hundred Space Marines noted by the Codex. However in practice the Companies are rarely at full strength as constant battle takes its toll and replacements are not always available to fill the ranks.

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First, and perhaps the most important part of  "basic organisation" compliance. From in-universe lore, it appears that the total number of brothers-under-arms is what the Inquisition is primarily concerned about when it comes to Codex Compliance (for example, the legion-building charge against the Astral Claws). The Iron Snakes are not organized into companies, but are not being pilloried because they don't exceed normal, nominal Chapter strength. Other items that tend to catch the Inquisition's attention are more issues of general heresy (like the Knights of Blood, for example). 

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Battle Companies comprise a mix of squad designations, usually six Tactical Squads, two Assault Squads and two Devastator Squads. This can vary however and some Chapters may organise include more or less Assault and Devastator Squads but never more than the number of Tactical Squads in the Company. The Battle Companies form the main battle lines and generally bear the brunt of the fighting. A single Battle Company acts as the core of a battlefield formation that may include attached elements from the Veteran, Scout and Reserve Companies as well as, armoured units from the Chapter's Armoury. The Battle Company Captains are incredibly adept at incorporating these ancillary troops into their formations and maximising their effectiveness. This flexibility and adaptability gives the Space Marines a great advantage and means that they are able to meet almost any threat and react quickly and efficiently.

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Nothing unusual here. For a while this was the area of largest Codex discrepancy. Oh, this Chapter prefers close combat? They have three assault squads and one devastator squad in their Battle Companies.

 

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The Reserve Companies are comprised entirely of squads of the same designation. Two of the Reserve Companies are Tactical Companies each often Tactical Squads. These are intended to act as a general reserve for the Chapter and may be used to reinforce the main line, launch diversionary attacks or counter enemy manoeuvres. In addition, one of the Companies is also trained to fight as Bike Squadrons and the other is trained to fight from Land Speeders. This increases the flexibility of the reserve and provides the Chapter with mass light vehicle formations if required. Elements of the Tactical Reserve may be seconded to the main Battle Companies to act as reinforcements.

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Again, nothing that hasn't been repeated in the years since.

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One of the Reserve Companies is an Assault Company comprising of ten Assault Squads. This is the Chapter's most mobile unit and is deployed in situations where a lot of hand-to-hand combat is anticipated or where speed of deployment is advantageous. The entire Company may be equipped with jump packs.

 

The last Reserve Company is the Devastator Company. This unit comprises ten Devastator Squads. The Devastator Company is used to anchor defence points and to provide long range fire support. It is also useful in countering enemy armoured vehicles formations.

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Absolutely normal and nothing has really changed.

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The last or tenth Company is referred to in the Codex as the Scout Company. In some Chapters this Company acts as a training battalion since their Scouts are generally younger, less experienced warriors who are in the process of becoming fully fledged Space Marines. However, in other Chapters the Scout Company includes troops who are every bit as experienced as their more armoured brethren in the main Companies. Not withstanding this all of the Tenth Company's squads are armed and armoured as Scouts. There is no formal size for a Scout Company as the rate of recruitment to a Chapter is not fixed. Scouts are relatively lightly armed and armoured and have a variety of combat roles. They provide the main line Companies with recon capability and can infiltrate the enemy lines, sabotaging supply lines and disrupting communications.

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As above, though the largest of the changes if one considers Primaris. There is technically no cap on the number of Vanguard squads because there is no size cap on the 10th Company. Yay rules-lawyering?