How are you finding the Detachments?

[CCE1981]

The Codex has been out for a while now and I am curious how people are finding the Detachments.   
 

In my experience I went from s near 0% win rate with Gladius Task Force to nearly 100% win rate with Firestorm Assault Force.

 

To me the Gladius Task Force just didn’t accomplish anything, the three Doctrines were more like 1.65 Doctrines.  I used Devastator Doctrine every game, Assault Doctrine every other game, and Tactical almost never.  Then it seems to place all your eggs into what is now called Fire Discipline.  If your Fire disciplined squad is taken out before it can do significant damage, you lose.

 

I started playing Firestorm and instantly everything got better.  I am no longer beholden to a Deathstar, everything causes my opponent attrition, and I am ending games with north of 70+ victory points, and CPs remaining.  It was such a game changer to have enough decent threats on the board that are performing a variety of tasks.  Maybe it is just my playstyle, but constant Devastator Doctrine has been huge for me, every unit benefits from it.  Maybe not every unit every turn, but every turn benefits from it.  Sure I cant Advance a turn that I want to charge, but I was able to Advance to a position fire all my guns and the next turn I moved and Advanced.  

 

I am curious how the other Detachments are holding up.  I am having issues crafting lists outside of Firestorm that I like and work well.  I think mainly because Firestorm is closest to my playstyle.  
 

I am curious most I think about Anvil Siege Force, I know it is well lampooned.  I seem to get on the verge of making it good, but never quite coming together.  I think it is because the support units just don’t get any….well Support.  

[AutumnEffect]

Besides watching the Space Wolves have lots of fun with the Stormlance while I polish the bike in the garage waiting for the day?

Firestorm is good. It's easy to use and plays to a lot of strengths. Ironstorm is real good if you own all of the vehicles. Anvil can be solid in a narrative game but it's kinda lackluster in competitive.

Edited March 29 by AutumnEffect

[Wormwoods]

I've been playing Firestorm in Crusade, and while I'm certainly not winning very often, I am having a lot of fun. Nice to have that impetus to get mucked in, move my lads around, be aggressive. I do need to mess around with some of the others, though, if only for the sake of variety. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I’ve only played 2 games with my angels, so can’t say too much one way or the other especially since they were a few months apart.

 

playing against wolves with the vanguard detachment was extremely annoying.

 

i played against salamanders w/ firestorm using my angels and SoS, and it was good, on both sides, was pretty even the first two rounds but between me being to hesitant to commit more troops to the midfield fight and forgetting I had jump intercessors in DS, the game snow balled very quickly in my opponent’s favor.

 

i think most if not all of our detachments are viable for both competitive and casual play.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, CCE1981 said:

The Codex has been out for a while now and I am curious how people are finding the Detachments.   
 

In my experience I went from s near 0% win rate with Gladius Task Force to nearly 100% win rate with Firestorm Assault Force.

 

To me the Gladius Task Force just didn’t accomplish anything, the three Doctrines were more like 1.65 Doctrines.  I used Devastator Doctrine every game, Assault Doctrine every other game, and Tactical almost never.  Then it seems to place all your eggs into what is now called Fire Discipline.  If your Fire disciplined squad is taken out before it can do significant damage, you lose.

 

I started playing Firestorm and instantly everything got better.  I am no longer beholden to a Deathstar, everything causes my opponent attrition, and I am ending games with north of 70+ victory points, and CPs remaining.  It was such a game changer to have enough decent threats on the board that are performing a variety of tasks.  Maybe it is just my playstyle, but constant Devastator Doctrine has been huge for me, every unit benefits from it.  Maybe not every unit every turn, but every turn benefits from it.  Sure I cant Advance a turn that I want to charge, but I was able to Advance to a position fire all my guns and the next turn I moved and Advanced.  

 

I am curious how the other Detachments are holding up.  I am having issues crafting lists outside of Firestorm that I like and work well.  I think mainly because Firestorm is closest to my playstyle.  
 

I am curious most I think about Anvil Siege Force, I know it is well lampooned.  I seem to get on the verge of making it good, but never quite coming together.  I think it is because the support units just don’t get any….well Support.  

I think the stealth one is the easiest to build around because it just straight up buffs the whole army’s survivability for most of the game.

 

Tough units get tougher, so terminators and aggressors and BVGs fit it pretty well imho.

[CCE1981]

Anvil and Vanguard seem to inadvertently support the opposite units.  In Anvil units that start out in position to hurt your opponent and do damage all game are best, this would be units like Infiltrator and Eliminator Squads.  A Phobos Captain attached to a 10-man Infiltrator Squad, and two Phobos Librarians attached to an  Las-fusil Eliminator Squad each would pretty crazy. Likewise -1 to hit perpetually in cover Gravis would be extra tough units to crack.

[L30n1d4s]

Vanguard Spearhead has been my go to and, overall, it has done quite well for me. If my opponent ever tries to go toe-to-toe with me in a fire fight (I generally run very shooting focused lists anyway), the -1 to hit and free Cover (even on vehicles, which I usually run several of) gives a definite advantage.

 

I particularly like the ability to redeploy my key infantry with  "Guerrilla Tactics" and to buff my shooting even further with "Strike from the Shadows," and I am finding the key to dealing with melee armies is lots of movement blocking units and Infiltrators. 

 

My current list has two Scout Squads, a Phobos Lt, and a Callidus, all if which can Infiltrate, plus two Incursor squads which (along with the Scout Squads and Phobos Lt) can Scout move, so I have lots of move blocking capability. Finally, I am running two Vindicators, which are very solid blockers as well, being T11 W11 and a 2+ save, so they can survive a lot of shooting and melee and I can afford to charge them into combat to tie my opponent up (their special rule us they still get to shoot their Demolisher Cannon even when in combat).

 

Just today I had a game against Orks and was largely able to pin my opponent in his DZ (or just outside it) pretty much the whole game, allowing my firebase units (Centurions, Predators, Hellblasters, and Vindicators) time to chew through his army... by the end of Turn 3, all he had left was a Battlewagon on 3W, a squad of Grots, a squad of Lootas/Big Mek (still in the Battlewagon), a Mek, and Kaptan Bandruk/Flash Gitz... I still had both squads of Centurions, a Vindicator, a Predator, a squad of Incursors, and Azrael... we called it at the end of Turn 3, but I was about to bounce my Centurions around the flank and very likely wipe out almost his whole army with shooting on turn 4. He didn't take any Infiltrator units (like Kommandos), so that helped a lot, but bottom line, as long as I can keep my opponent at arms reach, Vanguard Spearhead shooting is very potent!

Edited March 31 by L30n1d4s

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've played a couple games with the Ironstorm and I'm generally content.  Between twinlinked, Oathed targets, and other sources of rerolls. . . that extra Ironstorm reroll just makes everything super consistent and reliable. 

[Triszin]

Looks at champions of russ.

 

Cries in the corner

[CCE1981]

Yeah, Champions of Russ is a bummer.  They could at least allow units that are led by a Character to gain the benefit.

[Karhedron]

Firestorm is working well for my Space Wolves as I tend to play a fairly mechanised force. This makes my close range shooting better and then the Wolves can generally handle any survivors in melee. I understand the popularity of Stormlance but I never went down the TWC road. Going to S5 on Hurrican bolters and the Repulsor defensive arrays gets a lot of work done and free Immolation protocols on my Flamestorm Aggressors to the Gravis Captain can be really nasty.

 

The changes to Sons of Sanguinius getting +2S on the charge makes a lot of difference. Units like Van Vets, BGVs and SG now hit at S7 with a lot of attacks meaning that with Red Rampage, they are wounding even Knights on a 4+. Shooty opponents can pose a problem but that was always true and my army feels Blood Angely with lots of fast (if slightly fragile) elites soaring over the battlefield to deliver death with assorted pointy implements.

 

Sadly Champions of Russ is still an absolute dog's dinner of a Detachment. The bonuses are decent but most of the trigger conditions are either very hard to pul off or too easy for your opponent to prevent. Some require you to play for activating the bonuses rather than the mission Objectives which is a sure way to lose. Basically there is nothing in there that you can count on or build around. GW rave about the potential to activate multiple buffs but ignore the fact that quite often you will get nothing. Even when you do activate buffs, it will never be on T1 and rarely be on T2. This means you will normally have to wait until T3 at the earliest to start getting detachment buffs by which time you will likely be facing an uphill battle against an opponent who has been leveraging their Detachment bonus for 2-3 Turns already. GW either need to make the buffs much easier to trigger or they need to provide the buffs already active in a "basic" mode (e.g. applies to a squad led by a Character) at the start of the game. Then if you meet the activation conditions the buff goes army-wide as per now.

[Helias_Tancred]

Currently I am the proud owner of one 40k collection, 6000 points of ... The knights of Dorn, Black Templars!

 

I have had no reason to even try out the Gladius strike force, which on paper I like. I keep it Righteous Crusaders 24/7, 365 days a year, "We Don't Close For !"

 

If I were a gambling man, I'd wager that after the Black Templar codex is released (hopefully 1 week before the end of 10th edition mind you ) I may get more motivated to try out the Gladius detachment? lol. 

 

 

[Galron]

I have had great success with a Firestorm with my Dark Angels Drop pod list. I think I have finally worked out the units finally for dealing with the anti-armor issue I was having initially. But really cant pull this off at low points at 1k since mobility is limited and number of units it low.

 

Vanguard I havent quite figured out yet. Trying to figure it out since it really doesnt have a lot of damage buffs. Maybe it just doesnt work for lower point games vs monster only lists.

Edited April 28 by Galron

[Cenobite Terminator]

From the SM codex I only like the original Gladius formation. The others are all unappealing.

[Forté]

Firestorm certainly has it's uses.

 

Trying Vanguard on Friday and expecting to get turned over by my Dark Eldar using opponent.

[Malakithe]

On 4/28/2024 at 7:45 AM, Galron said:

Dark Angels Drop pod list

You have my attention...

[Galron]

1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

You have my attention...

Its on the Dark Angels sub-forum on the Redeemed thread. 3 drop pods, 2 terminator squads and some units starting on the ground because for stupid reasons they didnt make drop pods dedicated transports. You know, THE absolute most iconic method of marines arriving on the battle field, (GW designer: "I know the best way to represent these, we will over charge for them, not allow charging out of them, force the 9" rule for them and anyone who gets out, give them 0 OC, and limit people to 3 of them. Perfect!")  Complaints aside, it does pretty well in casual games and is a lot of fun, a very competitive opponent can usually handle it.

[jpwyrm]

On 3/30/2024 at 2:12 PM, L30n1d4s said:

Vanguard Spearhead has been my go to and, overall, it has done quite well for me. If my opponent ever tries to go toe-to-toe with me in a fire fight (I generally run very shooting focused lists anyway), the -1 to hit and free Cover (even on vehicles, which I usually run several of) gives a definite advantage.

 

I particularly like the ability to redeploy my key infantry with  "Guerrilla Tactics" and to buff my shooting even further with "Strike from the Shadows," and I am finding the key to dealing with melee armies is lots of movement blocking units and Infiltrators. 

 

My current list has two Scout Squads, a Phobos Lt, and a Callidus, all if which can Infiltrate, plus two Incursor squads which (along with the Scout Squads and Phobos Lt) can Scout move, so I have lots of move blocking capability. Finally, I am running two Vindicators, which are very solid blockers as well, being T11 W11 and a 2+ save, so they can survive a lot of shooting and melee and I can afford to charge them into combat to tie my opponent up (their special rule us they still get to shoot their Demolisher Cannon even when in combat).

 

Just today I had a game against Orks and was largely able to pin my opponent in his DZ (or just outside it) pretty much the whole game, allowing my firebase units (Centurions, Predators, Hellblasters, and Vindicators) time to chew through his army... by the end of Turn 3, all he had left was a Battlewagon on 3W, a squad of Grots, a squad of Lootas/Big Mek (still in the Battlewagon), a Mek, and Kaptan Bandruk/Flash Gitz... I still had both squads of Centurions, a Vindicator, a Predator, a squad of Incursors, and Azrael... we called it at the end of Turn 3, but I was about to bounce my Centurions around the flank and very likely wipe out almost his whole army with shooting on turn 4. He didn't take any Infiltrator units (like Kommandos), so that helped a lot, but bottom line, as long as I can keep my opponent at arms reach, Vanguard Spearhead shooting is very potent!

 

Are you playing two blocks of 6 Centurions Devastator or 3-man squads?

 

I'm working on my new Vanguard list and I like to play the shooting game. Your approach fits really well and I'm interested to pick your brain on how you make all this work.

[L30n1d4s]

@jpwyrm I am actually playing a mix: one 6 man Centurion squad with Grav Cannons and CMLs, one 3 man Centurion squad with TLLC and CMLs.

 

I have found this works pretty well for me -- the 3 man Centurion squad operates independently, without the need for any outside buffs (native reroll 1s to Hit as Centurions, Lascannons are TLed for rerolls to Wound) and give me a unit I can shoot at a wide variety of targets and have success with.

 

The 6 man Centurion squad is what I use my Strats on typically, since they get the most value for the CP I pay. I typically use Strike from the Shadows, Armour of Contempt, Guerrilla Tactics, and/or Overwatch on this squad throughout the game.

 

Strike from the Shadows is my "go to" Strat that I pretty much use every Battle Round, since it makes their Grav Cannons and CMLs hit with 97% accuracy (BS2+, rerollings 1s to hit), even if they split fire against multiple enemy units, and it also brings the Grav Cannons up to AP-2 and the CMLs up to AP-3, which really helps them against a wide variety of targets. I can routinely kill 2-3 enemy units per shooting phase with this squad alone, especially when combined with the ability to teleport them around to get just the right shooting angles (recently I have started running my list as BA and dropped a Vindicator for a Librarian Dread, just to give me that "no CP" teleport ability for these Centurions). With AP-2, the Grav Cannons are surprisingly good against a lot of non-vehicle targets (3 shots, S5 AP-2 Dmg3 is awesome against lots of heavy infantry) and with AP-3 the CMLs become a general purpose weapon that can deal with a ton of target types as well (D3 shots at S9 AP-3 DmgD3, Blast).

 

Armour of Contempt is great for keeping these Centurions alive, especially with the free Cover and -1 to hit over 12" away from the Vanguard Spearhead detachment rules... even when my opponent fires lots of antitank weapons at them like Lascannons, they are usually only hitting on 4+s, wounding on 3+s, and then against AP-3 the Centurions are still getting a 3+ save (Cover + AoC reduces the Lascannon to AP-1), so they are difficult for my opponent to bring down with shooting.

 

Guerrilla Tactics allow me to reposition them away from enemy threats/into advantageous firing lines, where I can maximize the firepower they have with Strike from the Shadows, plus it gives me insurance if my Librarian Dread gets killed (which it has).

 

Finally, Overwatch with the 6 man Centurions can be quite strong, especially if the target of the Overwatch starts or ends its move within range of an Objective, since that means I can reroll all the to hit dice that are not a 6, basically doubling the accuracy of my Overwatch shooting... with a full squad 6 man Centurion squad shooting at an enemy squad of 5 models, that averages about 5-6 Grav Cannon hits and 5-6 CML hits, which can be enough to kill it completely in a single volley (or, if firing at an already wounded vehicle/Monster, finish it off before it can shoot and Charge this turn).

 

Anyway, as you can see, the 6 man Grav/CML Centurions are the flagship unit of my list, largely due to they buffs I can give them with these various Strats. 

 

One last note about the Librarian Dread, it also provides "insurance" for one of my Centurion squads getting tied up in combat... since there is no restriction to using it when a squad is in Engagement Range of the enemy, and since the wording doesn't specify that it causes the target unit to do a Fall Back move (the ability puts the unit off the Battlefield,  then replaces it anywhere 9" away from enemy units), you can use it to pull the Centurions out of combat, reposition them somewhere safe, and still allow them to shoot this turn.

Edited May 11 by L30n1d4s

[Karhedron]

@L30n1d4s You are definitely selling me on the Centurions, I just wish the models were a bit nicer.

[Marshal Reinhard]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

I just wish the models were a bit nicer.

A lot of people do, considering how awash the internet is with centurion redesigns

[chapter master 454]

47 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

A lot of people do, considering how awash the internet is with centurion redesigns

They are the primaris grav-tanks before primaris grav-tanks because they sit in that same space where there are groups that hate the design or love them. I love it but thats me, I hate the grav-tanks of primaris so I don't use them.

 

Personally was using Ironstorm before points changes some time ago, stopped because I am trying stuff with Tau however in my group the list I was running wasn't about the detachment ability itself, more the hyper-damage combo it CAN do.

Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader, 3 techmarines with THOSE enhancements, 2 squads of TLLC/CML centurions, 2 predator destructors and 2 redemptor dreadnoughts, along with some henchmen, callidus and often the last spot was taken by something experimental, in the last list it was eliminators.

The juice of the list was the mercy is weakness combo, aiming to remove any hard targets one at a time, each turn. While not always needed, it does just remove anything that wants to be tough; C'tan fold under it and even their wraiths and mozrog who was a constant feature (this is pre-codex orks) also needed the damage combo just to ensure he fell over. However the list was incredibly weak on holding objectives and relied on killing power to help clear objectives and due to how tournament tables are designed because the layout designer has a burning hatred for anything that isn't infantry or beasts, has made it so tanks, monsters, cavalry just can't have fun on the tables most times and has turned the game into "melee the movie" with hiding being so trivial and easy that I just gave up on that end. Sad part is such boards also just make indirects super powerful and impossible to get to grips with with anything worth while.

 

Vanguard is a detachment I would revisit just because imo the other detachments are just...horribly balanced. Gladius does indeed suffer from the fact the only draw to it is the damage combo that you MUST hard commit to (something I don't have to in ironstorm) and while on paper offers nice utility...other detachments do such things better for example, vanguard!

I have only tried flamestorm once but likely would give it another go, I feel the idea of Bladeguard lead by a captain getting crucible of battle every turn should be good...just the one game I used it was against index necrons who have their invincible and unkillable 20 blob warrior squad tie them up. Just for further proof of how insanely poorly that index was balanced...I spent 4 full turns in melee with those warriors with my bladeguard. End of the game the warriors were still at full strength and my bladeguard and captain were dead, and they were using crucible of battle every chance they had to get 2+ to wound...

 

Stormlance is literally just a token gesture detachment for white scar players because GW just wants to give that chapter the 2nd/11th legion treatment. Anvil...hahahahaha...and then there's 1st company who I will argue are still even worse than ANY of the custode detachments and the only reason doesn't get more flak because we have 3 good detachments to use.

 

Can't speak for the other chapters, however did recently have my tau get rocked by Blood Angels. Death company I expected to be scary...however got shown how deadly captains leading assault intercessors are...they folded my riptides like laundry!

[DemonGSides]

Only part of centurions I hate are the nipple guns. Figure out a better place (over the shoulders?) for those and I quite like em. 

[jpwyrm]

On 5/11/2024 at 2:38 AM, L30n1d4s said:

@jpwyrm I am actually playing a mix: one 6 man Centurion squad with Grav Cannons and CMLs, one 3 man Centurion squad with TLLC and CMLs.

 

I have found this works pretty well for me -- the 3 man Centurion squad operates independently, without the need for any outside buffs (native reroll 1s to Hit as Centurions, Lascannons are TLed for rerolls to Wound) and give me a unit I can shoot at a wide variety of targets and have success with.

 

The 6 man Centurion squad is what I use my Strats on typically, since they get the most value for the CP I pay. I typically use Strike from the Shadows, Armour of Contempt, Guerrilla Tactics, and/or Overwatch on this squad throughout the game.

 

Strike from the Shadows is my "go to" Strat that I pretty much use every Battle Round, since it makes their Grav Cannons and CMLs hit with 97% accuracy (BS2+, rerollings 1s to hit), even if they split fire against multiple enemy units, and it also brings the Grav Cannons up to AP-2 and the CMLs up to AP-3, which really helps them against a wide variety of targets. I can routinely kill 2-3 enemy units per shooting phase with this squad alone, especially when combined with the ability to teleport them around to get just the right shooting angles (recently I have started running my list as BA and dropped a Vindicator for a Librarian Dread, just to give me that "no CP" teleport ability for these Centurions). With AP-2, the Grav Cannons are surprisingly good against a lot of non-vehicle targets (3 shots, S5 AP-2 Dmg3 is awesome against lots of heavy infantry) and with AP-3 the CMLs become a general purpose weapon that can deal with a ton of target types as well (D3 shots at S9 AP-3 DmgD3, Blast).

 

Armour of Contempt is great for keeping these Centurions alive, especially with the free Cover and -1 to hit over 12" away from the Vanguard Spearhead detachment rules... even when my opponent fires lots of antitank weapons at them like Lascannons, they are usually only hitting on 4+s, wounding on 3+s, and then against AP-3 the Centurions are still getting a 3+ save (Cover + AoC reduces the Lascannon to AP-1), so they are difficult for my opponent to bring down with shooting.

 

Guerrilla Tactics allow me to reposition them away from enemy threats/into advantageous firing lines, where I can maximize the firepower they have with Strike from the Shadows, plus it gives me insurance if my Librarian Dread gets killed (which it has).

 

Finally, Overwatch with the 6 man Centurions can be quite strong, especially if the target of the Overwatch starts or ends its move within range of an Objective, since that means I can reroll all the to hit dice that are not a 6, basically doubling the accuracy of my Overwatch shooting... with a full squad 6 man Centurion squad shooting at an enemy squad of 5 models, that averages about 5-6 Grav Cannon hits and 5-6 CML hits, which can be enough to kill it completely in a single volley (or, if firing at an already wounded vehicle/Monster, finish it off before it can shoot and Charge this turn).

 

Anyway, as you can see, the 6 man Grav/CML Centurions are the flagship unit of my list, largely due to they buffs I can give them with these various Strats. 

 

One last note about the Librarian Dread, it also provides "insurance" for one of my Centurion squads getting tied up in combat... since there is no restriction to using it when a squad is in Engagement Range of the enemy, and since the wording doesn't specify that it causes the target unit to do a Fall Back move (the ability puts the unit off the Battlefield,  then replaces it anywhere 9" away from enemy units), you can use it to pull the Centurions out of combat, reposition them somewhere safe, and still allow them to shoot this turn.

 

Man! 9 Centurions is something else! And with all the other source of firepower on top of that, your list output must be very scary. Looking at how you manoeuver the list, I think my issue is exactly what you brought up as one of the strenght your playstyle : move blocking. It seems I always get caught between sacrificing units to slow down/block my opponent or scoring objectives. I play a very aggressive opponent who alternates between Sisters of Battle (Max walkers list!) and GSC, so lots of tough CC units that can do some damage shooting and are quite fast too. More often than not, I get overwhelmed and/or fall behind on points because I play cagey trying to avoid his damage dealers and get my units in line of sight to deal with them.

 

I notice you never bring Infiltrators, have you had bad experience with them? Incursors and Infiltrators have been excellent units for me in the past.

[Galron]

After using Vangaurd in a tourney, it works great in certain scenarios. This was a 1k tourney so my force was built around the detachment with no real leeway for extras. With about half the points in dedicated heavy firepower and the other half in dedicated scoring, against most opponents on a standard sized board it does well. In all three games, taking objectives was rarely the problem and got me 85 and 85 vs knights and dread mob. The problem I encountered which most people will also encounter is meganobs and dealing with them. In my top table game we played soccer(servo-skulls) with sweep and clear. Not even two Ballistus and a Vindicator could put a dent in a pair of regenerating meganob blobs. Assault was worthless, trust me, I tried at the end just to see. The detachment doesnt offer any kind of real damage dealing strat aside from the one outside 12" one. You cant take objectives and hold them during the command phase if he can move, advance and assault for two turns no problem, especially with all three no mans land objectives within range of one of the mobs. So the detachment plays really well as long as you dont hit that one match up you just cant move. Weirdly enough, if I would have played the guy who actually won the tourney(My secondary scoring limited my opponent's secondary scoring preventing him from getting first place), I probably could have won as his bugs did not look particularly tough vs how my force operated. He got like 96 points with most of them from scoring with things like the biovore cheese. Being able to bounce units all over the board is just insanely good. I still dont know how well it would work at larger points where you have a more crowded table but at 1k, Vanguard will stomp at the scoring game. Always use infiltrators with a phobos on a no-mans land objective and pop booby traps turn one.