Niche for the assault cannon?

[HeadlessCross]

As I think about it, the single Assault Cannon has basically always been bad. If the unit doesn't have two or if it isn't Twin Linked, there wasn't a point to taking it. 

[DemonGSides]

On 7/15/2024 at 7:19 AM, Minsc said:

Assault Cannons are a cool but extremely underwhelming weapon (especially on Terminators, Typhoon ML + Stormbolter >>> Assault Cannon), that doesn't really offer SM-armies something they're in need of: Anti-GEQ firepower.

I don't think their AP or D should get buffed, as that would step on the toes of HB's and AC's, but giving them Anti-Infantry 5+ (4+ might be too good) and possibly Sustained Hits(1) would be a nice way to buff them against their intended target while also maintaining their uniqueness compared to our other heavy weapons.

 

I don't think SM need any help with Guard Equivalent; our regular bolters shred guard stat lines nbd, storm bolters as well.  We also have access to a pretty high amount of torrent weapons that chew up infantry blobs; the infernus marines are a unit dedicated to the job.  To round it out, [BLAST] exists in a lot of different options.

SM infantry basic weapons all need a pip of AP or to have ignore cover.  The lack of AP and plentiful cover makes it feel anemic, storm bolters as well.

 

Edited July 17 by DemonGSides

[Minsc]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I don't think SM need any help with Guard Equivalent; our regular bolters shred guard stat lines nbd, storm bolters as well.  We also have access to a pretty high amount of torrent weapons that chew up infantry blobs; the infernus marines are a unit dedicated to the job.  To round it out, [BLAST] exists in a lot of different options.

SM infantry basic weapons all need a pip of AP or to have ignore cover.  The lack of AP and plentiful cover makes it feel anemic, storm bolters as well.

 

I think you misunderstood me (or maybe I was just unclear) but thats exactly what I said; We *dont* need more anti-GEQ weaponry.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 7/15/2024 at 7:19 AM, Minsc said:

Assault Cannons are a cool but extremely underwhelming weapon (especially on Terminators, Typhoon ML + Stormbolter >>> Assault Cannon), that doesn't really offer SM-armies something they're in need of: Anti-GEQ firepower.

I don't think their AP or D should get buffed, as that would step on the toes of HB's and AC's, but giving them Anti-Infantry 5+ (4+ might be too good) and possibly Sustained Hits(1) would be a nice way to buff them against their intended target while also maintaining their uniqueness compared to our other heavy weapons.
 

I don’t think buffing the assault cannon’s stat line would directly compete with those other options.

ok maybe the HB, but not the autocannon(which barely exists in the marine dex)

A6 S6 AP-2 D2  would make it anti-MEQ, but it wouldn’t be anywhere near as good against vehicles with the lower AP and damage compared to an autocannon. 
Who is really taking HB anywhere but heavy intercessors and sponson mounts in marine armies any way?

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I don’t think buffing the assault cannon’s stat line would directly compete with those other options.

ok maybe the HB, but not the autocannon(which barely exists in the marine dex)

A6 S6 AP-2 D2  would make it anti-MEQ, but it wouldn’t be anywhere near as good against vehicles with the lower AP and damage compared to an autocannon. 
Who is really taking HB anywhere but heavy intercessors and sponson mounts in marine armies any way?

You made a weapon that's by default better than the Autocannon and Heavy Bolter. 

[Minsc]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I don’t think buffing the assault cannon’s stat line would directly compete with those other options.

ok maybe the HB, but not the autocannon(which barely exists in the marine dex)

A6 S6 AP-2 D2  would make it anti-MEQ, but it wouldn’t be anywhere near as good against vehicles with the lower AP and damage compared to an autocannon. 
Who is really taking HB anywhere but heavy intercessors and sponson mounts in marine armies any way?

 

A6 S6 AP2 D2 (and I presume, still Dev Wounds?) would probably be way too strong.
You essentially turned the Assault Cannon into some rapid fire plasma cannon with Dev. Wounds on top, and it would outperform the Autocannon against pretty much every target, including vehicles. 

D2 is "fine", but AP2 is a big no-no, AP1 at most. The Assault Cannon is not and should not reliably punch trough armour.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 minutes ago, Minsc said:

 

A6 S6 AP2 D2 (and I presume, still Dev Wounds?) would probably be way too strong.
You essentially turned the Assault Cannon into some rapid fire plasma cannon with Dev. Wounds on top, and it would outperform the Autocannon against pretty much every target, including vehicles. 

D2 is "fine", but AP2 is a big no-no, AP1 at most. The Assault Cannon is not and should not reliably punch trough armour.

I was thinking about it again and was just coming back to edit the post to be A4 instead of 6. Not a fan of marines relying on spamming shots.

id drop the devastating wounds as well.

 

the current mechanics where vehicles are treated the exact same as infantry in terms of wounding and damage makes it a bit hard to find the right balance for some weapons.

 

i like the idea of the assault cannon having a higher muzzle velocity than autocannons, so better AP against MEQs and weaker than autocannons would make sense.

maybe put it in as weapon ability it improves its AP by one when targeting <infantry> and <cavalry> and give it a base AP of -1.

 

maybe even rework the whole ‘anti-‘ rule so it increases AP against the designated target type rather than a flat wound roll regardless of S.

Edited July 18 by Inquisitor_Lensoven