More Points Hikes:(

[Emperor Ming]

Basilisk, Bullgryns, kasarkin, and manticore again....  :O

 

ZPIdnv258NWwFQ8p.pdf (warhammer-community.com)

 

Some nice things, like reductions to russes

 

But really I don't think any hikes are justified. 

[DemonGSides]

Yeah super justified. Bullgryn especially. If a unit is showing up everywhere, it's probably got some issues.

 

Kasrkin feel like a real hit. They are good but are they that good?  Feels like 10 points should've been enough. 

 

Artillery is just real good. Kinda glad I never managed to find a basilisk, though I do love a good long barrel. I'll probably still try to find one.

 

My list this weekend needs some slight tweaks, but I mostly dodged any changes by leaning heavily on the Dorn. Was kinda hoping for a cheeky 10 pt reduction on them. 

[CyderPirate]

The drops for scions units are nice, and the hellhound getting a cut was a nice bonus!

I'm still not sure why the Valkyrie still hasn't been touched; I'm beginning to suspect that one might be getting Legends-ed when we get our codex (request tin foil hat shipments from ministorum....)

[DemonGSides]

We lost the one variant to legends already, so it wouldn't be totally shocking.

 

That being said it's still a kit GW produces and I've seen it on shelves within the last year. I know that's not a guarantee of survival, but it makes it more likely.

 

I think GW just doesn't know what to do with flyers.

[Tokugawa]

Bullgryn nerf is predicable since many tournament top lists take 12~18. And it's just +3.33pts per model.

 

Kasrkin nerf is unfair. Are they really that good to worth 20% more than a scion? I don't think so.

[DemonGSides]

I think 10 points would have been better, but GW has shown that they value re-usable equipment pretty highly with some of the points changes that GSC had in previous updates.

 

I'm more of a 2 squad Kasrkin guy anyways, so I'm mostly okay with it, but it did make me cut Ursula from my list. Probably gonna have to re-tool it and really start leaning on armored spearhead over parking lot artillery. 

[SteveAntilles]

My pure infantry army (the most un-competitive I run) went up 50 points. LOL 

[AutumnEffect]

Bullgryn have always rankled me ever since they were introduced. They've always seemed to be so damn good and I see them everywhere.

 

I just find it annoying that when I see Imperial Guard armies on the table it's just big meaty ogryn slabs.

Like the 2nd and 3rd place lists of the Oxford Supermajor both had 18 bullgryn in them with only 1 squad of regular guardsmen between both lists.

 

I wonder if the irony of the main line of 'the human army' being made up on the tabletop of huge pseudo-evolved post humans isn't lost on anyone else.

 

So no, I don't have a problem with the bullgryn nerf.

[TheArtilleryman]

Nice changes from my point of view, although not much impact - my army went down 30 points (-50 for the tanks and +20 for the Kasrkin).

 

I agree with the reduction to Russes. I’ve played a couple of games recently and they definitely aren’t pulling enough weight.

Edited April 25 by TheArtilleryman

[Sergeant Bastone]

My 1000 point Crusade army now costs 965 points so that's cool.  

 

Hydra + Vanquisher was 305 points at the beginning of 10th, now 230 points.  

 

100 points for 10 Scions is an amazing deal.  IMO they're the best target for Reinforcements.

[TheArtilleryman]

Just had another look at the index datasheets for scions and kasrkin, which seem like two almost identical units at face value. The 20 points tax looks like it is because the Kasrkin can take an extra 3 special weapons over the scions (4 per unit plus a sniper rifle, instead of 1 per 5).

 

The self-ordering rule is also quite strong, but the scions also have deep strike and re-rolls of 1 to hit (full re-roll against objective holding units). So I don’t think it’s based on special rules, just kit.

My Kasrkin are terribly under-equipped considering this points hike, as I have the old metal squad that came with 1 x grenade launcher and 1 x flamer.

 

A loadout of 2 x melta, 2 x grenade, plasma pistol on sergeant, a sniper, a vox unit and a melta mine would massively increase my squad’s effectiveness but is not a feasible conversion project with the metal models.

 

At this stage I would be better off proxying them as scions because of my forced loadout.

 

Power levels strike again! :sigh:

Edited April 26 by TheArtilleryman

[AutumnEffect]

15 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Just had another look at the index datasheets for scions and kasrkin, which seem like two almost identical units at face value.

 

I have a feeling that someone looked at the popularity of Kasrkin compared to Scions and came to the wrong conclusions. I think Kasrkin are more popular because their models are more appealing.
But I think someone made the mistake that Kasrkin being more popular equates to them being better.

[TheArtilleryman]

1 hour ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

I have a feeling that someone looked at the popularity of Kasrkin compared to Scions and came to the wrong conclusions. I think Kasrkin are more popular because their models are more appealing.
But I think someone made the mistake that Kasrkin being more popular equates to them being better.

If you take the optimum loadout of each squad though, I would say the kasrkin are objectively better than scions.

 

10 scions only take 2 special weapons.

10 kasrkin can take a sniper plus 4 special weapons. That’s quite a big difference in firepower for a squad that can also self-order to hit on 2s. 

Edited April 26 by TheArtilleryman

[AutumnEffect]

1 hour ago, TheArtilleryman said:

If you take the optimum loadout of each squad though, I would say the kasrkin are objectively better than scions.

 

10 scions only take 2 special weapons.

10 kasrkin can take a sniper plus 4 special weapons. That’s quite a big difference in firepower for a squad that can also self-order to hit on 2s. 

 

The Scions can re-roll 1's or get flat re-rolls to hit with their special rule though, which is sort of on par with the hitting on 2's (and better if you can give them the +1 BS order)

Maths:
20 shots hitting on 2+: 16.67 hits
20 shot hitting on 3+ re-roll 1's: 15.56 hits
20 shots hitting on 3+ re-roll misses: 17.78 hits

 

 

10 Scions can also take 4 Special Weapons (2 of each kind).
"For every 5 models in this unit, up to two Tempestus Scions can each have their hot-shot lasgun replaced with one of the following:*"

So the Kasrkin just get the Marksman rifle as a bonus.

 

Deep strike is also a really, really good deployment rule.

 

Honestly I think they are about the same. I'd think both would be fine at 11 ppm (110 for 10)
I also think they would work pretty well in tandem with each other. Kasrkin are great scouting forward in a transport to secure objectives in no-mans land while the Scions drop and remove enemies from their own objectives with their re-roll hits.
Both benefit from orders but can do their job without them.

Edited April 26 by AutumnEffect

[Emperor Ming]

I wouldn't even consider kasarkin atm, special weapons tactical value has diminished considerably

 

and the s3 guns.... 

 

 

 

 

[AutumnEffect]

35 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

I wouldn't even consider kasarkin atm, special weapons tactical value has diminished considerably

 

and the s3 guns.... 

 

Double plasma/melta with a plasma pistol on the Sarg will still kill 5 Marines on average which isn't nothing (gets better if you can get First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! on them too)

But with the Kasrkin it's the Scout and 4+ armor you're getting them for to plant on objectives. 

 

We're guard. We kill the mean things with vehicles. Everything on two legs is there to die for the objectives or keep things off the vehicles.

[TheArtilleryman]

2 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

10 Scions can also take 4 Special Weapons (2 of each kind).
"For every 5 models in this unit, up to two Tempestus Scions can each have their hot-shot lasgun replaced with one of the following:*"

So the Kasrkin just get the Marksman rifle as a bonus.

You are absolutely right! I read the datasheet wrong. 

So yeah, not worth the extra 20 points for kasrkin at all.

[DemonGSides]

It is. Scout is huge, self orders is huge, the Melta Mine is a strategic item that denies an extra 3" bubble around the Kasrkin otherwise a vehicle takes a potentially big hit.

 

Scions don't get good unless you bring a command squad with them, and now you're more expensive than the Kasrkin (if youre using them for the same purposes). You also can't reinforcements the command squad, so every scion squad gets worse after it dies compared to Kasrkin, who remain exactly as powerful coming out of reinforcements. 

 

Kasrkin also getting access to double orders is a big deal.  I think there's still plenty of play left in the Kasrkin even at 120, though I think they go from being an almost automatic 3-of to being a considered 2-of.

 

Scions are great action monkeys or deep striking threats. I don't think they got the exact same use as Kasrkin tho there is some overlap.   I'm considering running two squads of five just to have some chance at dropping them somewhere unexpectedly to pick up some freebies. 

Edited April 26 by DemonGSides

[sairence]

Tempestus Command squad has the regimeny keyword, so can be reinforced. CS and scion squad still  split on death, but depending on timing you now have 2 deepstriking reinforcement threats.

 

Scions are great. They also have a very different role to Kasrkin.

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, sairence said:

Tempestus Command squad has the regimeny keyword, so can be reinforced. CS and scion squad still  split on death, but depending on timing you now have 2 deepstriking reinforcement threats.

 

Scions are great. They also have a very different role to Kasrkin.

 

But then you're staggered, and spending 4 CP to do what Kasrkin can do for 2 CP.  And they can't join back up.  And you're spending more points than the Kasrkin to do something that the Kasrkin want to do, so it REALLY doesn't make sense then.

 

Easier to just use scions for their use case, instead of seeing a 20 point increase on a squad and being all Woody's Nightmare about it;

 

 

[sairence]

Deepstrike gives Scions an entirely different use-case for reinforcements than Kasrkin have 

 

Like when you use it twice in different phases on Scions, you bring back two DS threats with either some guns or to do your missions.

 

Kasrkin always have to walk on, so while they are way more flexible once on the ground, they are much more restricted where they come on. 

 

For that reason I don't really see the point in pitting them against each other, they fulfill pretty different roles in a Guard army. Scions are drop troops, Kasrkin are Skirmishers.

 

I don't get the CP-comment. I spend 2CP everytime I use the strat. Whether I use it on two different Scion units, or twice on the same Kasrkin squad, I get a uniy back every time.

Edited April 27 by sairence

[DemonGSides]

The point was to get the full squad back of scion (the 5 man command squad to give orders, and then the normal 10 man unit), you have to use it twice. It's not a real consideration cuz you're probably not using it that way anyways but giving an order is important in the army and Kasrkin can order themselves once a turn for free. So in response to the comment that Scions are the new Kasrkin, I don't think so. It's about the context. 

 

But I agree, they have different use cases and costs. 

Edited April 28 by DemonGSides

[Sergeant Bastone]

I've done 5 Scions with a Command Squad and brought the command squad back twice in the game.  It worked very nicely.  You can also Rapid Ingress and immediately cast Take Cover.  With cover and a FNP you're somewhat tough to kill for a T3 1W model. 

 

Going forward I'm just going to run 10 Scions and bring them all back for 2CP.  For 100 points that's amazing.  Everytime you drop in you can give em 2 melta shots and 5 plasma shots (plus 10 hotshot lasgun shots) with rerolls.  Really though I've found Scions best use to be completing Tactical Objectives rather than killing stuff. 

[Focslain]

On 4/28/2024 at 7:38 AM, Sergeant Bastone said:

I've done 5 Scions with a Command Squad and brought the command squad back twice in the game.  It worked very nicely.  You can also Rapid Ingress and immediately cast Take Cover.  With cover and a FNP you're somewhat tough to kill for a T3 1W model. 

 

Going forward I'm just going to run 10 Scions and bring them all back for 2CP.  For 100 points that's amazing.  Everytime you drop in you can give em 2 melta shots and 5 plasma shots (plus 10 hotshot lasgun shots) with rerolls.  Really though I've found Scions best use to be completing Tactical Objectives rather than killing stuff. 

Except Reinforcement can't bring the Temptus Prime back since he has the character keyword. 

[DemonGSides]

It definitely can, it just can't bring back the squad + the command squad.

 

The clarification rule is there to stop people from claiming that the unit includes the extra leaders.