Help y’all

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I do so much better in games with my guard than my angels, and I’m not sure why.

 

if I try to play more shooty things aren’t great for me.

if I play aggressive and try to get into melee, things aren’t great for me.

 

i know it’s difficult to give advice if you don’t see how some one plays m, but advice?

 

i think I do better with guard because it’s easier for me to understand and relate to because they’re basically just real world WWI-cold war army for the most part.

 

 

some of what I do, do.

 

jump chappy w/ 5man DC

SHP w/ 5 man SG

 

cpt w/ aggressors and biologis

cpt w/ heavy intercessors.

 

typically I transport agrressor squad and multimelta dread in a ‘Raven to get in the enemy’s face

boxnaught in cover on home objective

 

jumpy bois try scoring various secondaries requiring models in table quarters and in enemy DZ, while my intercessors and HIs press the midfield supported by the assault cannon dread and the stormraven.

 

 

list from last game

 

Sons of the Angel (1975 Points)

Space Marines
Blood Angels
Sons of Sanguinius
Strike Force (2000 Points)

CHARACTERS

Apothecary Biologis (65 Points)
    • 1x Absolvor bolt pistol
      1x Close combat weapon
    • Enhancements: Icon of the Angel

Captain in Gravis Armour (100 Points)
    • Warlord
    • 1x Boltstorm gauntlet
      1x Power fist
      1x Relic fist
    • Enhancements: Artisan of War

Captain in Gravis Armour (80 Points)
    • 1x Master-crafted heavy bolt rifle
      1x Master-crafted power weapon

Chaplain (60 Points)
    • 1x Absolvor bolt pistol
      1x Crozius arcanum

Chaplain with Jump Pack (90 Points)
    • 1x Crozius arcanum
      1x Plasma pistol
    • Enhancements: Visage of Death

Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack (100 Points)
    • 1x Astartes chainsword
      1x Bolt Pistol

BATTLELINE

Heavy Intercessor Squad (100 Points)
    • 1x Heavy Intercessor Sergeant
        • 1x Bolt pistol
          1x Close combat weapon
          1x Heavy bolt rifle
    • 4x Heavy Intercessor
        • 4x Bolt pistol
          4x Close combat weapon
          3x Heavy bolt rifle
          1x Heavy bolter

Intercessor Squad (80 Points)
    • 1x Intercessor Sergeant
        • 1x Astartes chainsword
          1x Bolt pistol
          1x Bolt rifle
    • 4x Intercessor
        • 1x Astartes grenade launcher
          4x Bolt pistol
          4x Bolt rifle
          4x Close combat weapon

Tactical Squad (140 Points)
    • 1x Tactical Sergeant
        • 1x Bolt pistol
          1x Close combat weapon
          1x Power weapon
    • 8x Tactical Marine
        • 8x Bolt pistol
          7x Boltgun
          8x Close combat weapon
          1x Plasma gun
    • 1x Tactical Marine
        • 1x Bolt pistol
          1x Close combat weapon
          1x Lascannon

OTHER DATASHEETS

Aggressor Squad (120 Points)
    • 1x Aggressor Sergeant
        • 1x Auto boltstorm gauntlets
          1x Fragstorm grenade launcher
          1x Twin power fists
    • 2x Aggressor
        • 2x Auto boltstorm gauntlets
          2x Fragstorm grenade launcher
          2x Twin power fists

Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs (80 Points)
    • 1x Assault Intercessor Sergeant with Jump Pack
        • 1x Hand flamer
          1x Power weapon
    • 4x Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs
        • 4x Astartes chainsword
          4x Heavy bolt pistol

Death Company Marines with Jump Packs (140 Points)
    • 5x Death Company Marine with Jump Pack
        • 5x Boltgun
          5x Close combat weapon

Dreadnought (135 Points)
    • 1x Assault cannon
      1x Dreadnought combat weapon
      1x Storm bolter

Dreadnought (135 Points)
    • 1x Dreadnought combat weapon
      1x Multi-melta
      1x Storm bolter

Inceptor Squad (130 Points)
    • 1x Inceptor Sergeant
        • 1x Close combat weapon
          1x Plasma exterminators
    • 2x Inceptor
        • 2x Close combat weapon
          2x Plasma exterminators

Sanguinary Guard (155 Points)
    • 5x Sanguinary Guard
        • 3x Angelus boltgun
          4x Encarmine blade
          1x Inferno pistol
          1x Plasma pistol
          1x Power fist

Storm Speeder Thunderstrike (160 Points)
    • 1x Close combat weapon
      1x Stormfury missiles
      1x Thunderstrike las-talon
      1x Twin Icarus rocket pod

Vanguard Veteran Squad with Jump Packs (105 Points)
    • 1x Vanguard Veteran Sergeant with Jump Pack
        • 1x Storm Shield
          1x Vanguard Veteran weapon
    • 4x Vanguard Veteran with Jump Pack
        • 4x Storm Shield
          4x Vanguard Veteran weapon

Exported with App Version: v1.13.0 (36), Data Version: v373

 

(if I missed upgrades in a squad listed it’s mostly because my primary concern for using the app is easily counting points.)

Edited April 26 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[DemonGSides]

Space Marines are kind of in a rough spot right now unless you're moving for something super meta.

My first cuts would be all of or almost all of your battleline.  That's 300 points that you can dump into something like a vehicle, or bulk out your Jump Infantry if you want to eschew vehicles entirely.

If you're gonna do the Aggressor bomb, you HAVE to use 6.  Our version is already slightly worse due to no Fire Discipline, and right now your captain and Biologis are only being half utilized.  If you're going to go this route, I'd also trade in one of your regular dreads for a Librarian Dread, and then use it as pseudo Deep Strike for your Aggressor bomb.  It's not a tanky unit (The Aggressors), so remember position is gonna be important so they don't get shot off the board after your turn.

I'd cut the Sanguinary guard and just beef out a 10 man VanVets as well, and with those points plus some battleline cuts, make the Sang Priest worthwhile as well.  Trade one Gravis Cap to a Jump Pack Cap to go with the vanvets and Sang Priest, and laugh as you slaughter with them.

At this point, keeping the Heavy Ints as an anvil unit isn't terrible, and neither is keeping one small squad of Intercessors for sticky objectives/action monkey moves.  This means you'll definitely want to drop one dread, and make the other a Librarian.

Quick re-do of your list; (If you don't have the guy, just delete em and use something that fits the same use case)

 

Apothecary Biologis (55pts): Absolver Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon - Aggressors
Captain in Gravis Armour (80pts): Warlord, Master-crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle and Master-crafted Power Weapon, Master-crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle, Master-crafted Power Weapon - Aggressors
Captain with Jump Pack (85pts): Bolt Pistol, Melee and Pistol, Power Fist, Plasma Pistol - VVets
Chaplain with Jump Pack (75pts): Crozius Arcanum, Inferno Pistol - DC
Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack (90pts): Astartes Chainsword, Bolt Pistol - VVets

5x Heavy Intercessor Squad (100pts)
5x Intercessor Squad (80pts)

6x Aggressor Squad (240pts)
10x Death Company Marines with Jump Packs (260pts)
3x Inceptor Squad (130pts)
10x Vanguard Veteran Squad with Jump Packs (210pts)
Brutalis Dreadnought (175pts): Twin Icarus Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Brutalis Fists & Brutalis Bolt Rifles, Brutalis Bolt Rifles, Brutalis Fists, Twin Heavy Bolter
Librarian Dreadnought (170pts): Blood Lance, Furioso Fist, Furioso Force Halberd, Meltagun
Stormraven Gunship (240pts): Armoured Hull, Hurricane Bolter 2 Hurricane Bolters, 2x Stormstrike Missiles, Twin Lascannon, Twin Heavy Bolter

I noticed you mentioned you use a StormRaven but it wasn't in your list, so I threw it in there, alongside a BRutalis; I think this is the most fun way to utilize the Storm Raven, slam your Heavy Intercessors in there and they can drop down to be midfield bully while the Brutalis just chain activates attacks through the enemy line; Storm Raven is basically a Landraider after dropping it's load, then you throw the VV squad up one flank, the Aggressors get Yeeted by the Librarian Dread to wherever they're needed, the INceptors wait in DS until a good opportunity comes to melt something, Death Company can either follow up VV or take a side by themself.

Edited April 26 by DemonGSides

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

Space Marines are kind of in a rough spot right now unless you're moving for something super meta.

My first cuts would be all of or almost all of your battleline.  That's 300 points that you can dump into something like a vehicle, or bulk out your Jump Infantry if you want to eschew vehicles entirely.

If you're gonna do the Aggressor bomb, you HAVE to use 6.  Our version is already slightly worse due to no Fire Discipline, and right now your captain and Biologis are only being half utilized.  If you're going to go this route, I'd also trade in one of your regular dreads for a Librarian Dread, and then use it as pseudo Deep Strike for your Aggressor bomb.  It's not a tanky unit (The Aggressors), so remember position is gonna be important so they don't get shot off the board after your turn.

I'd cut the Sanguinary guard and just beef out a 10 man VanVets as well, and with those points plus some battleline cuts, make the Sang Priest worthwhile as well.  Trade one Gravis Cap to a Jump Pack Cap to go with the vanvets and Sang Priest, and laugh as you slaughter with them.

At this point, keeping the Heavy Ints as an anvil unit isn't terrible, and neither is keeping one small squad of Intercessors for sticky objectives/action monkey moves.  This means you'll definitely want to drop one dread, and make the other a Librarian.

Quick re-do of your list; (If you don't have the guy, just delete em and use something that fits the same use case)

 

Apothecary Biologis (55pts): Absolver Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon - Aggressors
Captain in Gravis Armour (80pts): Warlord, Master-crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle and Master-crafted Power Weapon, Master-crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle, Master-crafted Power Weapon - Aggressors
Captain with Jump Pack (85pts): Bolt Pistol, Melee and Pistol, Power Fist, Plasma Pistol - VVets
Chaplain with Jump Pack (75pts): Crozius Arcanum, Inferno Pistol - DC
Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack (90pts): Astartes Chainsword, Bolt Pistol - VVets

5x Heavy Intercessor Squad (100pts)
5x Intercessor Squad (80pts)

6x Aggressor Squad (240pts)
10x Death Company Marines with Jump Packs (260pts)
3x Inceptor Squad (130pts)
10x Vanguard Veteran Squad with Jump Packs (210pts)
Brutalis Dreadnought (175pts): Twin Icarus Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Brutalis Fists & Brutalis Bolt Rifles, Brutalis Bolt Rifles, Brutalis Fists, Twin Heavy Bolter
Librarian Dreadnought (170pts): Blood Lance, Furioso Fist, Furioso Force Halberd, Meltagun
Stormraven Gunship (240pts): Armoured Hull, Hurricane Bolter 2 Hurricane Bolters, 2x Stormstrike Missiles, Twin Lascannon, Twin Heavy Bolter

I noticed you mentioned you use a StormRaven but it wasn't in your list, so I threw it in there, alongside a BRutalis; I think this is the most fun way to utilize the Storm Raven, slam your Heavy Intercessors in there and they can drop down to be midfield bully while the Brutalis just chain activates attacks through the enemy line; Storm Raven is basically a Landraider after dropping it's load, then you throw the VV squad up one flank, the Aggressors get Yeeted by the Librarian Dread to wherever they're needed, the INceptors wait in DS until a good opportunity comes to melt something, Death Company can either follow up VV or take a side by themself.

I dropped the stormraven in my last game.

 

ironically probably would have been real helpful against an army of tough big stuff.

[Paladin777]

I skimmed your list and instead of nickel and diming every detail, I'll just leave a few tid-bits that I've learned. 
 

First thing is that if your squad isn't maxed, it's probably not worth taking a character in them. DC are a notable exception for the OC issues, but don't go overboard with 5man+chappy units. One troubleshooting unit will do. The other notable exception is Assault Ints with captain. Whereas all other SM leaders are primarily there to buff the squad, the AI+cap combo flips this dynamic on its head as they are there to guard the captain and sergeant, so they get a pass.

Next is that BA have no way to buff shooting. This is not to say that you shouldn't take shooting units, only that there are certain other detachments that simply do it better. The shooty units we have pretty much have to rely on the strength of their datasheet, because that's all they've really gotten. 
 

The last general thing is that slow melee units (movement less than 8") without a delivery system will regularly disappoint. 
 

My only specific item is this: VanVets are only worth it in squads of 10 while accompanied by a SPriest. The Priest's high (even higher as of today) points cost makes him prohibitive for squads that aren't maximizing his benefits. I say this as someone who runs them regularly.
 

I also like adding a captain to my vanvets, but that's just preference. You don't have to. 
 

Edit: Jump DC with boltguns are way too expensive for what they do. 

Edited April 27 by Paladin777

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

15 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

I skimmed your list and instead of nickel and diming every detail, I'll just leave a few tid-bits that I've learned. 
 

First thing is that if your squad isn't maxed, it's probably not worth taking a character in them. DC are a notable exception for the OC issues, but don't go overboard with 5man+chappy units. One troubleshooting unit will do. The other notable exception is Assault Ints with captain. Whereas all other SM leaders are primarily there to buff the squad, the AI+cap combo flips this dynamic on its head as they are there to guard the captain and sergeant, so they get a pass.

Next is that BA have no way to buff shooting. This is not to say that you shouldn't take shooting units, only that there are certain other detachments that simply do it better. The shooty units we have pretty much have to rely on the strength of their datasheet, because that's all they've really gotten. 
 

The last general thing is that slow melee units (movement less than 8") without a delivery system will regularly disappoint. 
 

My only specific item is this: VanVets are only worth it in squads of 10 while accompanied by a SPriest. The Priest's high (even higher as of today) points cost makes him prohibitive for squads that aren't maximizing his benefits. I say this as someone who runs them regularly.
 

I also like adding a captain to my vanvets, but that's just preference. You don't have to. 
 

Edit: Jump DC with boltguns are way too expensive for what they do. 

The interesting thing is, I’m rarely disappointed by my gravis units.

 

even my HIs w/ captain performed wonderfully game before last against vanilla marines. I moved them onto the center objective, but enemy hellblasters came around the corner so I charged the HIs in support of my aggressors to keep the HIs safe from being shot up and they surprisingly took out 2 either victrix guard or 2 BGVs in melee after the aggressors finally fell can’t remember which sword and board bois it was now.

[Karhedron]

Broadly speaking I take 2 types of units.

 

Utility units are usually there to take Objctives, perform actions and (hopefully) not die too quickly. These are normally minimum sized squads and i do not give them Characters. I normally keep them minimum sized because if you want to grab Objectives, 2 squads are usually better than 1 as they are more flexible and less vulnerable to Blast. I don't usually rely on them to deal significant damage and because they are small, I don't normally waste Characters on them. 

 

Damage dealers, these are normally max-sized squads and often have a Character attached. Ideally the Character and squad should synergise in some way. At the very least they should be compatible. Some damage dealers do not need Character support: Eradicators and Inceptors both have impressive damage outputs all on their own and I tend to like these squads as they bring their own rerolls.

 

If you have a Character in a small squad, ask yourself if you should be increasing the squad size or dropping the Character.

[Paladin777]

21 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The interesting thing is, I’m rarely disappointed by my gravis units.

 

even my HIs w/ captain performed wonderfully game before last against vanilla marines. I moved them onto the center objective, but enemy hellblasters came around the corner so I charged the HIs in support of my aggressors to keep the HIs safe from being shot up and they surprisingly took out 2 either victrix guard or 2 BGVs in melee after the aggressors finally fell can’t remember which sword and board bois it was now.

I had decent success with Heavy Ints with a captain too. I've had better success using them without a captain and simply using them as action monkeys and objective holders, and in lieu of giving them a character, make sure there's a counter-charge unit able to back them up if need be (even if that's a rapid-ingressing terminator unit).

 

yes, that's higher investment, but it's also higher reward. If your opponent is putting the kind of firepower into heavy ints that'll take them out, then that's an asset of theirs that's worth deleting. Heavy ints + captain won't do that. 

Edited April 28 by Paladin777

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

I had decent success with Heavy Ints with a captain too. I've had better success using them without a captain and simply using them as action monkeys and objective holders, and in lieu of giving them a character, make sure there's a counter-charge unit able to back them up if need be (even if that's a rapid-ingressing terminator unit).

 

yes, that's higher investment, but it's also higher reward. If your opponent is putting the kind of firepower into heavy ints that'll take them out, then that's an asset of theirs that's worth deleting. Heavy ints + captain won't do that. 

Yeah, I’ve noticed that most of the time gravis units end up drawing fire that would otherwise go into my vehicles, which regardless of most other things,  seems to make them worth while taking.