RoW: yes, no, depends...Worth?

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

I have a doubt about Rites of War. They aren't obliged in an army if you don't want include one, but how good can be an army with out one?. Some times I feel more limited using some RoW, lacking flexibility in my list and being too repeating when I make an army list. Specially with SoH, my army.

 

So I need some counsel and advices from more experienced people than I. Thanks 

[Noserenda]

Rites of War vary just as much as anything else in the game, some of them are OP, some of them are awful. Ultimately choosing not to use one wont really hurt you. 

[No Foes Remain]

It also depends on what you want to get out of it. Take the SoH Long March for example, the limitations are just heavy units in transports or in reserve but with the amount of units on the Legion roster it's easy not to take them and just enjoy the benefits of infantry and dreads getting +1 movement and termies becoming non-compulsory troops who gain outflank. Most of my SoH concept lists use that because the only heavy units I have are the Leviathan and Deredeo dreads (which I haven't built yet) but with how strong dreads are in 2.0 I probably won't be using them both in the same list anyway.

 

On the opposite side any of the default RoW require you to build your army and theme around them, PotL is good but the units you want to take are costy and you may have a small model count at the end. Armoured Spearhead gives you the chance to be like Rommel and load up on tanks but on smaller more terrain dense boards this may be a issue and bog you down.

 

There's also the mindset of 30k, it's meant to be a game where you make your army based around a theme and the fluff of your force.

[Razorblade]

I think its less the rites of war and more the excellent Retinue squads that make a master of the Legion near mandatory. At this point you have already paid the principal tax for using a rite of war so you might as well do so if you can find one that is beneficial. 

That said all of the generic rites are heavily skewed towards a certain playstyle, with the exception of Recon Company which is excellent while it's limitations are not that severe (tough quite impactful as they hit a couple of mainstay units in HSSs Boxnaughts and Leviathans), and many Legions have either downright bad or heavily skewed Rites.

The baseline Legion Army List is offers more than enough options and power, so you don't need to use a rite of war by any means and if you feel that doing so restricts you too much in your List composition don't. 

The only exception to this are Legions that get RoWs that don't change List construction but grant major benefits (like the utter insanity that is bloody claws)  where you'd be putting yourself at a disadvantage for no reason if you do not use them.

[sonsoftaurus]

I’m a new player to HH, have yet to play so this is all from theory. But I have looked at it as ‘what type of army do I want to play/what do I want to bring’ and then see if there’s a good RoW to fit. 
 

For my EC I wanted seekers and recon marines, and recon company fit well. 
 

For DG I wanted a bunch of big squads oftacs and heavy weapons, some Terminators and dreads, maybe later swap regular termies for Grave Wardens. Creeping Death works great, but I could run as no RoW if needed to be nicer or just smaller games.

 

I just recently looked at my old ‘heresy’ army, IW built to run as regular SM in 7th ed. 40k. None of the rites really fit well with what I had, though at smaller points and leaving things out the restrictions could be less of an issue, but right now I plan on ‘riteless’ with them. 

Edited April 29 by sonsoftaurus
Typos

[MARK0SIAN]

I definitely don’t think they’ve got the balance right with Rites this edition. There’s some of them where they give some pretty hefty restrictions for very little benefit other than making certain units troops (sometimes without even giving them Line). 
 

There’s others where the don’t really give great benefits but the restrictions are minor (or essentially non-existent) and then there’s a few of the Legion-specific ones that give amazing benefits for very little cost.  

 

My personal grievance is that whilst many of the Rites, including Legion Specific ones, make certain units troops, only some of them give those troops a bonus. For example, Stone Gauntlet (IF) not only gives Phalanx Warders the Line keyword and allows them to be taken as troops but it also gives them Heart of the Legion, Hammer of wrath and allows them to reroll failed invulnerable saves. Compare that to the Chogorian Brotherhood (WS). That rite makes jetbikes troops with line. That’s it! No additional bonuses for the bikes, despite you having to give up your Heavy support. 
 

I guess what I’m saying is there’s some definite winners and losers in terms of the rites with a couple of the generic ones being pretty good. If the playstyle you like happens to be lots of dreads, lots of recon marines or lots of terminators then you’re probably wise to go for the rites but other than that it depends entirely on whether your legion is one of the lucky ones. For the record I don’t think SoH are one of the lucky ones so I’d probably go with a normal crusade detachment. 

[sonsoftaurus]

I also think you should not look at not using a rite as losing out necessarily; it is effectively a ‘rite’ that gives you full access to all the units and slots without the various other restrictions or prerequisites like certain characters, can still outflank, etc. It is the default option but is a very broad and flexible one. 

[Noserenda]

Oh yeah, as i alluded to above ive had really mixed thoughts on RoW this edition. The Dreadnought one is oppressive but the armour company is bone i looked at doing a tunnel assault army and not using the relevant RoW was outright better as the units i wanted for my core all already had them as dedicated options. Possibly in a similar situation to the OP all the Sons of Horus ones didnt work for me and despite the original plan being some Predator platoons backed by Veterans, Pride of the Legion actually made a lot more sense, the rules were inverting the fluff intention entirely...

I did quite like that they expanded the Robot one though, got a whole bunch of them painted as Iron Warriors i almost ran at an event :D  

[Galron]

Some Rites require your local community to have significant home rules. Subterranean and Drop Pod assault are two of the biggest victims. If you do not play with the fairly common "1 shooting reaction per unit per turn" rule, these two are pretty much useless and you will rarely see them. Even with that rule in place, if you have someone who brought auspexes on every unit then the drop pod list at least is still in trouble. 

 

As to the troop/line thing, it should have been standardized across the board for all the RoWs. Either two(or however many) of X units get moved to troops and are line or any number of X units are moved to troops but are not line. 

[Razorblade]

11 hours ago, Galron said:

Some Rites require your local community to have significant home rules. Subterranean and Drop Pod assault are two of the biggest victims. If you do not play with the fairly common "1 shooting reaction per unit per turn" rule, these two are pretty much useless and you will rarely see them. Even with that rule in place, if you have someone who brought auspexes on every unit then the drop pod list at least is still in trouble. 

 

As to the troop/line thing, it should have been standardized across the board for all the RoWs. Either two(or however many) of X units get moved to troops and are line or any number of X units are moved to troops but are not line. 

Don't the Drop Pods protect their cargo from interceptor? 

[MARK0SIAN]

3 hours ago, Razorblade said:

Don't the Drop Pods protect their cargo from interceptor? 

Sadly not. Because the unit is forced to disembark as part of the drop pod assault they become a valid target for the interceptor reaction.

 

They even put it in the FAQ as I think it was causing some confusion:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/w5Pm3yiEFnjISb6h.pdf

 

It’s a shame because it really limits the usefulness of drop pod assaults. IMO, Interceptor is a problem in general though  and isn’t good for the game, especially with augery scanners.

[Galron]

3 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

It’s a shame because it really limits the usefulness of drop pod assaults. IMO, Interceptor is a problem in general though  and isn’t good for the game, especially with augery scanners.

Thats why some groups put the 1 shooting reaction per unit per turn limit. If I was running an event that would be in place along with the SN battle report rule on Artificer Armor tanking. The one shooting reaction doesnt solve the interceptor problem with drop pod assault, but it at least mitigates enemy units shooting more in their opponent's turn than the opponent and forces the opponent to choose. Personally I think it should be a case of drop pod comes down and the opponent then chooses to use interceptor, if not then the next pod drops. Rinse and repeat. You dont get to shoot up a unit then go after another unit after its dead and so on. Choose to shoot interceptor at the unit and if you dont then its safe. That or you have to shoot the closest unit which is what would happen and is taught in real life, taking out the most dangerous threat, the one in your face. 

Edited May 21 by Galron

[MARK0SIAN]

2 hours ago, Galron said:

Thats why some groups put the 1 shooting reaction per unit per turn limit. If I was running an event that would be in place along with the SN battle report rule on Artificer Armor tanking. The one shooting reaction doesnt solve the interceptor problem with drop pod assault, but it at least mitigates enemy units shooting more in their opponent's turn than the opponent and forces the opponent to choose. Personally I think it should be a case of drop pod comes down and the opponent then chooses to use interceptor, if not then the next pod drops. Rinse and repeat. You dont get to shoot up a unit then go after another unit after its dead and so on. Choose to shoot interceptor at the unit and if you dont then its safe. That or you have to shoot the closest unit which is what would happen and is taught in real life, taking out the most dangerous threat, the one in your face. 

I think interceptor (and return fire for that matter) should just work like it did in first edition. If you choose to intercept the unit can’t then fire in its next turn. It gives them a trade off where they could still be used but they’d have a downside that didn’t just make them a no brainer. I think all reactions should work like that, you want to withdraw? Fine but no movement in your own turn. You want to evade? Fine but snap shots only next turn. 

Edited May 21 by MARK0SIAN

[Galron]

I would agree somewhat, but the only really abusive problems I see come from shooting reactions. Another easy way to fix this would be to simply say, "No free Interceptor reactions." I have noticed that many people arent even bringing Augury scanners on squads since deep strike is so rare, especially with the other factions having come out and becoming more common. Vexillias I see as almost manditory in units so theres already a 10 point item that will probably get used more than an augury scanner. Then adding another 10 points for an AS so now you are 20 on items that might or might not ever get used when those could be extra bodies.

Edited May 21 by Galron

[MARK0SIAN]

59 minutes ago, Galron said:

I would agree somewhat, but the only really abusive problems I see come from shooting reactions. Another easy way to fix this would be to simply say, "No free Interceptor reactions." I have noticed that many people arent even bringing Augury scanners on squads since deep strike is so rare, especially with the other factions having come out and becoming more common. Vexillias I see as almost manditory in units so theres already a 10 point item that will probably get used more than an augury scanner. Then adding another 10 points for an AS so now you are 20 on items that might or might not ever get used when those could be extra bodies.

 

I agree some of the reactions are more problematic than others but I also think Hold the line and Overwatch are also in that category. Hold the line is particularly annoying as so many abilities that you pay points for don't work on a disordered charge. Your opponent is able to negate those special abilities by taking a low risk gamble with a leadership test. Overall, the reactions feel like they're weighted against assault armies rather than ranged ones: Enemy moves towards you? Just move away. Enemy tries to deep strike? Intercept them. Enemy tries to soften you up? Return fire. Enemy wants to charge you? Overwatch or Hold the line. Now I know some of these like return fire also affect ranged armies but the balance seems to be against assault armies. That's why I'd like all reactions to have a cost.