Eradicators vs MM Devastators

[Karhedron]

Eradicators seem to be the go-to choice for Marines when it comes to infantry-based anti-tank. For 190 points you get 18 T6 wounds and 8 Melta shots at 18" with full rerolls against vehicles and monsters. Deployment is a bit of a pain as they either need a 200-ish point transport or going on foot. That got me to rethinking the trusty old Devastator squad with 4 Multimeltas in a Razorback.

 

That comes in just a smidge more expensive at 205 points but also gets 8 melta shots at 18" range. As well as whatever the Razorback is packing. They can still get full rerolls if shooting at the OOM target and if the RB shoots the same target first. You get an easier time reaching the target and you have 2 units instead of 1 which can come in handy. You get 20 wounds across the 2 units although the Devs themselves are a lot squishier at T4.

 

What do other people think? The firepower seems roughly equivalent although the Eradicators are more self-contained as they don't need to co-ordinate with another unit and use OOM to get their rerolls. Does the extra mobility of Devs in a RB make up for that? Does have 2 units to score compensate for the squishiness of the Devastators? I have both units and my Eradicators have done pretty well so far in 10th but I have yet to try my Devs in the short-ranged anti-tank role. Does anyone else have any thoughts to share?

[Galron]

I would go with devs with grav over MM. MM sucks for anti-tank. I forgot about the razorback option though, thats pretty highspeed now that I am thinking about it with an army I am working on expanding.

[Dr. Clock]

For me this is almost purely aesthetic - I have Salamanders oldmarines with 2x5 melta devs and they are indeed wicked fun to use in razorbacks, esp. in Firestorm. Yes - the mobility is awesome, as is the additional lascannon! I play them with a Predator, Vindicator, Ballistus, and Impulsor full of Infernus in support - and yes, 'Impulsor' is proxied out of basic Rhino until I get my Landraider painted...

 

I never picked up more than the launch box Eradicators for my Primaris army, but I do try to squeeze them in most games with that army as a little throwaway flank piece. Many games they will end up doing something cool while keeping pressure up on the flanks, and they generally soak more fire than they're worth so it's all good. I have certainly considered adding another 3, but I think I'd likely keep them in the cheap flanking role instead of try invest in a reinforced unit. I know there are certain characters and whatnot that can really boost a 6-man Eradicator, but that doesn't quite fit with my lightning strike style (Storm Lords Stormlance!) where I'd generally prefer more tools for late plays than additional investment in tanky shooters... that army's just all about characters leading melee big units surrounded by random small fast stuff lol.

 

Edit @ Galron: "MM sucks for anti-tank." - Sucks may be a bit much - S:10 at 12" from Firestorm + razorback re-roll does not suck in my experience. 4+ BS means I'm often going to use them on OOM target, at which point the unit puts 4-5 wounds on T10, or still like 3 on T11+. Yes, invulnerables may get in the way, but Grav is massively let down by its AP-1 IMO, and it doesn't have much synergy with the razorback most of the time because wounding on 2+ makes the buff less important. As soon as you target something with 2+Sv in cover the grav kinda stops working.

 

Anyway - melta devs forever! But also Eradicators are very cool.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30 by Dr. Clock

[Orange Knight]

Eradicators all the way, and it's not even close.

With how tough vehicles are, Multi-Meltas are often wounding on a 5+ so having access to that re-roll is vital.

 

And it's worth noting that Devastators can be killed by a stiff breeze in the current game. Toughness 6 infantry with 3 wounds is worthwhile. There are also many ways to deliver them across the table using detachment abilities and chapter specific rules if you don't want to use an expensive transport.

[jaxom]

I agree with @Orange Knight for anti-tank particularly because of rerolling the damage roll.

 

A Devastor Squad with MM in a Razorback do seem like a nice choice for destroying elite multiwound models like Mega Nobz and Custodes. Get close, disembark within 9", twin heavy bolter and stormbolter on the Razorback to tag the enemy unit and activate Fire Support, then you'll be wounding on threes with rerolls, and even low damage rolls with take out a model per wound.

[Karhedron]

For those saying that the Devs will have a harder time wounding vehicles than Eradicators, With Fire Support from the Razorback, they wound most tanks on a 5+ with full rerolls which is exactly the same as the Eradicators.

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

For those saying that the Devs will have a harder time wounding vehicles than Eradicators, With Fire Support from the Razorback, they wound most tanks on a 5+ with full rerolls which is exactly the same as the Eradicators.

I think it’s the damage reroll that makes Eradicators better vs vehicles and monsters.

[Galron]

I think multi-meltas in general just suck at their jobs. Even with only a -1 I prefer to do mass chip damage with grav or  wound on 3s with lascannons. Not a fan of Eradicators either. I have used my drop pod MM devs multiple times and they have failed me over and over while the grav unit that shares their drop pod takes up the slack every time.

[Orange Knight]

What makes Eradicators a lot more appealing to actually use is that they don't require any stratagem support or resources to actually make them effective. 

 

On top of this, they can be bolstered significant by an Apothecary Biologis, whilst Devastators can't be joined by a Lieutenant. 

[Paladin777]

4 hours ago, Galron said:

I think multi-meltas in general just suck at their jobs. Even with only a -1 I prefer to do mass chip damage with grav or  wound on 3s with lascannons. Not a fan of Eradicators either. I have used my drop pod MM devs multiple times and they have failed me over and over while the grav unit that shares their drop pod takes up the slack every time.

The problem with devs out of a drop pod is that you aren't getting rerolls on your to-wound roll. That's where the magic happens. 
 

So of course you've had a bad experience with MMeltas!

[AutumnEffect]

Lets see if maybe some maths might illuminate something.

There are a lot of variables for this little comparison. These maths will not be taking into account the Armorium Cherub or the Oath of Moment for the Devastator squad.
Here are some results vs a Leman Russ profile (Toughness 11, 2+ save, 13 wounds)
The sets that will kill the Leman Russ outright are underlined.

 

215 point Devastator + Razorback
Devastator + Razorback vs Leman Russ (While Melta is active) but you didn’t hit with the Razorback.
3.89 wounds (6.11)

Devastator + Razorback vs Leman Russ (While Melta is active) but you didn’t hit with the Razorback and Heavy is active.
5.19 wounds (8.15)
 

Devastators + Razorback with Re-Rolls to Wound vs. Leman Russ (While Melta is active)
Lascannon – 10.04 (11.97)
Heavy Bolter -  8.77 (9.28)

Devastator + Razorback with Re-Rolls to Wound while Heavy is active vs Leman Russ (While Melta is active)
Lascannon – 10.42 (15.36)
Heavy Bolter – 9.15 (14.09)

 

190 point Eradicator unit:
Eradicators with only Melta Rifles vs Leman Russ (While Melta is active)
10.14 (13.58)

Eradicators with only Melta Rifles while Heavy is active vs Leman Russ. (While Melta is active)
10.95 wounds (14.85)
 

Eradicators with 2 Multi-Meltas vs. Leman Russ (While Melta is Active)
10.62 (16.69)

Eradicators with 2 Multi-Meltas while Heavy is active vs Leman Russ. (While Melta is Active)
12.06 (18.95)

An aside of Devastators Grav vs Melta: (If Heavy is active it will increase both units proportionally so I won't do a comparison with it)

Devastators with Grav-Cannons vs Leman Russ
5 wounds
Devastators with Multi-Meltas vs Leman Russ (Melta Active)
3.89 (6.11)

Some notes:
* I was curious about if the -1 BS on the Multi Meltas compared to the Melta Rifles on the Eradicators would make a notable difference so I decided to do some numbers with and without them.

* I also included the Razorback with a Heavy Bolter for comparison because, critically, you must hit with an attack from it for your Devastator squad to get re-roll wounds. The odds are in your favor that you'll get that one critically important hit with your twin-linked Lascannon because of BS 3+, but honestly I'd hate to have so much output riding on one hit roll. With the Heavy Bolter, you've got a 96.3% chance to get that hit.

 

* It's this rider that the Razorback must hit with an attack that has the potential to really mess with the plan of using the Devastators in an anti-tank role, in my opinion. If you move the squad and miss with the Razorback, your output is going to be pathetic.

 

* This obviously only takes into account damage output. This doesn't help when comparing defensively. 

 

* Part of the problem with Devastators + Razorback is that the Devastator's weapons are Heavy but to get the bonus from a Razorback they must disembark from it that turn which obviously means they have moved. There might be a strat or something that lets them count as not having moved, but I'm not going to go digging for it. Regardless, without support this means you can't get both the Heavy bonus and the Re-Roll Wounds bonus at the same time on the Devastators. (But I did include it in my maths just in case there's a way you can)
The Razorback wants the squad to be mobile, the Devastators want to be stationary.

* A full unit of Eradicators with double Multi-Melta looks like the best bet for killing a big target in one go. Their damage spikes that you can see at Melta range are from cumulative +2 flat damage the extra shots give them and because of their flat re-rolls to everything they don't really care too much about losing the Heavy bonus.

 

*Multi-Meltas having BS 4+ and Heavy while having such a short optimal range (9") is really unfortunate and is what probably gives the impression of them being bad weapons this edition.
I think this is also part of why Grav is so much more appealing on Devastators. It's not so much the damage (though they do have an edge on that outside of Melta range) it's the range. You can comfortable sit the Devastator Squad still and shoot out at 24" with the Grav-Cannons and get the Ignores Cover bonus. It also has enough shots that shooting Grav-Cannons at infantry of just about any stripe isn't a waste.

* Grav-Cannons are really good (shocker). They kind of put all the other weapons that Devastators can take out of business. They're better than Heavy Bolters (I'll take Anti-Vehicle 2+, Strength 6 and 3 damage over Sustained Hits 1), their flat 3 shots make them better than Plasma Cannons with D3 and Anti-Vehicle 2+ tips them over the edge vs Lascannons.

If you are taking something other than Grav, you're doing it wrong (Mathematically speaking. Take what you like!)

Edited May 2 by AutumnEffect

[Paladin777]

I don't like how grav weapons are pretty pants against monsters. Sure, vehicles are more common, but there are enough monsters around that it's worth thinking about (ctan, avatar, primarchs, tyranids, Wraithlords/knights, etc.).

 

FWIW, if your devs are in melta range, it's hard to imagine a razorback missing every shot with the lascannons as well as its storm bolter (that should be in rapid fire range)! While not impossible, that's improbable enough for me to ignore the possibility.
 

as far as the needing to disembark goes: fair point!

 

edited for clarity

Edited May 1 by Paladin777

[AutumnEffect]

2 minutes ago, Paladin777 said:

FWIW, if your devs are in melta range, it's hard to imagine it missing every shot with the lascannons as well as its storm bolter (that should be in rapid fire range)! While not impossible, that's improbable enough for me to discount that from. 

 

Aaah, the Storm Bolter is a fair point. I forgot about that. My math does not take the storm bolter into account.
Definitely go for the Lascannon then.

[Dr. Clock]

15 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

What makes Eradicators a lot more appealing to actually use is that they don't require any stratagem support or resources to actually make them effective. 

 

On top of this, they can be bolstered significant by an Apothecary Biologis, whilst Devastators can't be joined by a Lieutenant. 

 

I mean... yup. We're obviously not supposed to buy new Devastators, only Fire Support units lol. The Primaris bias in the rules is pretty obvious, so I would certainly advise anyone making a purchasing decision to pick the newer unit.

 

And I do appreciate that MM Devs are definitely more of a buildaround - they are probably subpar outside of the detachment designed for them.

 

16 hours ago, Galron said:

wound on 3s with lascannons

 

I see you also are a person of refined taste and culture. Outside any other considerations, the first devastator unit I would build today would be lascannons. Except I wouldn't build any today... just another 5 hellblasters possibly lol. Glad you enjoy grav... they're just not for me.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

 

[Karhedron]

OK, so even under optimum conditions, MM Devs are still outperformed by Eradicators. Eradicators are tougher and can be bolstered by the Biologis with a couple of useful detachment-specific enhancements. Really the only benefit of Devs seems to be deployment with the utility of the Razorback, However MM Devs can only approach Eradicators on the turn in which they disembark.

 

Overall I am persuaded that Eradicators are better than MM Devs in general cases. There are solutions to the issue of getting them to the target.

[jaxom]

4 hours ago, Karhedron said:

There are solutions to the issue of getting them to the target.

If I recall correctly, Blade Driven Deep enhancement  in Vanguard detachment gives Infiltrators and could go on the Apothecary Biologis. Then there's actual transport options like Land Raider variants and Repulsors. The classic Land Raider brings the godhammer lascannons to the party and that's an additional four Str12 AP-3 D6+1 damage attacks.

[Forté]

Eradicators are just too good when it comes to hitting monsters and vehicles really hard thanks to all those rerolls. And they can soak up a lot of damage at the same time.

 

Work quite well with a Repulsor, too. Especially that re-embark ability.

 

Firestorm turns them into assault S10 killers & Vanguard can give plenty of movement shenanigans.

[L30n1d4s]

I think one area where MM Devs in a Razorback might shine is using them for a Rapid Ingress outflank. Coming in on your opponent’s turn means you are just over 9" away and get to disembark 3" + 6" move in your turn, giving you basically guaranteed Melta range for that +2 Dmg (or, put another way, minimum 3 Dmg, maximum 8 Dmg per shot). Against multi-wound T8 and below targets (Necron Wraiths, Crises Suits, the newly buffed Squighog Boyz, enemy Gravis Armoured units, Aeldari Wraithguard, MegaNobz, Ogryns, Tyranid Warriors, Devastator Centurions, etc.) that are not vehicles/Monsters, but are becoming increasingly common in competitive 40K, this MM Dev squad in a Razorback can come in and reliably "one shot" a flagship enemy unit, potentially turning the tide at a critical point in the game.

 

I am also a fan of Grav Cannons, like some other players here, but I play Vanguard Spearhead and use "Strike from the Shadows" to buff them up to AP-2, so that mitigates their biggest weakness.

Edited May 2 by L30n1d4s