Raptor loadouts in 10th

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I'm thinking of doing a unit or two of raptors for this years Call to Arms, but have to decide on what loadout to do.

 

Are 2 plasma guns still the hotness, or am I better off with some other loadout in 10th?

[Cpt.Danjou]

At the moment I would wait for the codex to drop before attaching any weapons to them. I am pretty sure there will be some changes and that there will be a "Night Lord" detachement where Jump troops will see some great changes, "hopefully". What I do know is that Meltas are not that interesting anymore, saw a match yesterday where one guy fired four meltas per turn, and only managed to wound once, with plasma at least he would have been able to fire twice as many shots, due to rapid fire. I assume you ware going to use the raptors as harassment troops, so the only other option is flamers, and as long as we do not have flamers that are anti-infantry they are not worth it, to short range, no ap, is not affected by Dark Pact, and has a meh strength. I also doubt that we are going to see great changes to Raptors, the only thing that might change them is depending on what the "new" Jump pack lord brings to the table.

 

Cpt.Danjou

[Brother Nathan]

Iv just built a squad of old school metal raptors so was limited to a plasma pistol and special weapon. Could only find a melta for the special. (The asp champ is the classic dual claws one)

Plas is the only great choice. Melta near needs a second shot at short range or double strength as its odds of wounding what you want it to hit are poor though it can do high damage. Plasma is just more reliable nowadays. As for flamers they need the previous ed thing of additional hits (+3) to begin to compare

 

[abaumann]

I’ve been following tournament list postings each weekend, and a common loadout is 10 with 4 meltas and Haarken for the winning lists. What Captain Danjou said is probably true in these lists too. Might just be a unit to slam onto an objective and reliably do some chaff clearing, maybe not reliable anti-tank or main beefy unit unless you’re playing 1000 points. 

[TrawlingCleaner]

I think Meltas tend to even out in the long run, the ideal for the unit is that they're not in line of sight for a lot of the game and the only time they are is to line up a charge. They're still marines at the end of the day so tend to go down very quickly

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Thanks for everyone who has chimed in on this - it was very helpful for me.

 

In addition to the 3 options set out by Cpt. Danjou (the 3 special weapons - plasma, melta, flamer) I see there being a 4th which is 2 plasma pistols (well, 3 with the one on the champ, but all of them have that).  More melee power (as you get 2 chainswords rather than close combat weapons, which means 8 attacks at -1 AP rather than 6 at no AP for those 2 models) for much less potent shooting power.  Probably not a good trade off, unless you are only using the squad as a melee unit and objective grabber - but at only 5 models for my intended squad size, probably isn't viable.

 

My own  knee jerk reaction is to take melta, but I admit that's driven by memories of editions past and my own unreasonable dislike of plasma.  I do agree that flamers seem like the worst choice, though if I take the detachment that lets me use the Let the Galaxy burn stratagem that's been revealed by GW having them automatically kick out 6 shots each is better (it does that and makes the squad ignore cover, for 1 CP)... but probably not worth the CP and certainly not worth taking that detachment unless I was already going to.

 

My intended plan is to use them to grab out of the way objectives, but bikes are likely better for that - comparing minimum sized units, bikes have 1 less wound but are (currently) 5 points cheaper, have 1 more OC and have much better firepower.  Where raptors are better is in melee, with 6 more close combat weapon attacks (or 8 chainsword attacks if I go plasma pistols) than their biker equivalent, and being better able to get places the bikes can't (like on top of terrain) and better able to take advantage of cover as a result (they are, IMHO, of similar footprint).  All this is based on full sized squad, which of course is a bit unrealistic and disfavors the bikes slightly as they degrade a bit more slowly.

 

Looks like the chaos codex will be out before June 15, which (as advised by Cpt. Danjou) should let me look at it before making a final decision and still allow me to bid them at the opening of the Call to Arms.  I'm using the old metal models, so really its just a matter of plopping in the appropriate weapon.  Though, my guess is that I'll most likely go plasma for the first squad, melta if I do a second, and plasma pistols if I do a 3rd... unless one really is better than the others in the codex or from my experience on the table top.

Edited May 7 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Galron]

I prefer plasma pistols and keep the close combat weapons. They dont have enough fire power with the special weapons to make it worth it IMO. I have fielded the 2 meltagun version with my lone objective scoring unit in my IW list and they disappoint me every time when I try to go offensive with them. Meanwhile I use plasma pistols with my jump intercessors and they do great, if I need power I overcharge, if not, I dont worry about it and they still get full attacks with their chain blades. 

 

I have a full squad of warp Talons ready to rock and roll and a mixed bag of individual Night Raptors from my 30k Night lords. Great, now you got me thinking about my vow for this event coming up. Good guys or bad guys... Pre-order is this weekend I think so we will see I guess. As with a lot of my armies outside of my IW, I think this is going to be another "I like to go fast" army.

 

I think the real question is 5 man or 10 man raptors? They both have their ups and downs.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

The rules have been leaked (see links in this post) and raptors look pretty much the same as they were before.  Bikes took a bit of hit in comparison (at least in the objective taking role I'm envisioning for my raptors) in they can no longer disappear off the table edge, which is a bit sad as that was a really cool and evocative ability.

 

For the purposes of this discussion, nothing in the new codex changes what loadout I would give mine - at least not until I decide what detachment I'm fielding.  I'm really tempted by the Raiders detachment, as I love the idea of everything having assault, though I think the Subterfuge one (whatever its called, the Alpha Legion flavoured one) is probably more powerful, but likely requires a better player than I to make best use of it.

 

Anyway, I looked at what models I had, and it turns out that restricts how I can equip my units (somewhat).  I basically have enough models for 4 squads of 6 raptors + a few more, with 4 each of each choice (so, 2 squads worth) - so I think the way I will build them is 2 squads of 5 with plasma, 2 squads of 5 with melta and then 4 models with plasma pistols that I can replace the melta or plasma in given squads with.  I then have enough spare raptors that I can swap out squad leaders to make 2 squads of 10 should I so wish.  So lots of flexibility.  I'll post a link to them here one I'm done getting them built.

 

Not that I can think of any reason why I would ever want to field 20 raptors, but I've got the models and I need something to paint the CtA, so I might as well.  Plus, I have a new air brush to try out.

Edited May 10 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Dread Talons Detachment?  Raptors have utility in the Battle Shock department.  It's getting meme'd on, of course, but it's option.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Indeed it is.  Not too fond of that detachment (I think GW over values battleshock), but it would be a reason to go full on raptor. 

 

I've now got them all built, and have posted them here.

[mel_danes]

Is it better to run two squads of 5, for more board control, or one squad of 10 for better strat impact? 

I can kit them out however, I'm wondering about unit size vs cost vs benefits.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

My thought is on how you want to use them.  If you want board control, obviously 2 squads are better than one.  Not only does this let you cover more ground, but you get an extra aspiring champion out of it, which means an extra plasma pistol and power weapon/fist.  It also gives you better ability to split fire, as it allows you do decide where the attacks of the second squad goes after knowing the effect of the attacks of the first squad.

 

To overcome those, I think you need to look closely at what stratagems and characters you want to use on/with them, and whether the advantage of doubling up on the numbers that affects is worth forgoing the advantages set out above.  I expect it to be very situation dependent - some stratagems trigger off of statuses or events that might not be in place when the squad goes as a whole, but might be if you can do the attacks of one squad first (for example, abilities that require or gain advantages from  the target being below maximum or half strength).  Conversely you might lose other benefits by having one squad go first then the other - for example, you could kill models of a unit off an objective, and lose the benefits for the second squad it might have had if that hadn't happened.  There are a couple of other advantages with a larger squad - its easier to charge one squad in than two, where the first charge might block the second, and if you are alternating activations (say, where there is melee with no charges, or both sides have fight first) being able to activate a big squad at once is an advantage of potentially having an enemy get to attack between both your squads going.

 

I guess my rule of thumb would be to always run them as 5 man squads unless a) I want to run more than 15 raptors and/or b) I want to attach a character to them.  Note, there may be circumstances where the character's buffs don't really overcome the advantages of 2 smaller squads, but my gut feeling is that even in those circumstances the added protection of the larger squad to the character probably make it worth it losing those advantages to get the character a bigger bodyguard.

Edited May 29 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Prot]

I am thinking about this in conjunction with Harkaan. I do love the model, and I keep thinking of him and 10 for a quick threat reaction or him and 5 for deep strike scoring.

 

I don't think they have enough punch to do much but I am leaning towards Melta just because the tank meta is so prevalent and harder elite targets.