Future of Astra Militarum infantery squads?

[AutumnEffect]

43 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

I think of it like the HH kits. You buy the tacticals, and you can buy special or heavy weapons separately. This is how guard infantry has worked for a long time and I think (and definitely hope) it won’t change.

 

The only problem with this analogy is that the special and heavy weapons for the Horus Heresy aren't a playable model/unit, but parts for an additional one.
The Heavy Weapons Squad box is a playable unit that you purchase, self contained. If it was some kind of upgrade kit with just weapons and arms ala the already existing Cadian upgrade kit then I'd agree with you.

I mean, it's really telling IMO that they sell a Catachans Heavy Weapons Squad box but the battleline Catachan squad can't include a Heavy Weapons team in it.
The new Heavy Weapons Squad box is in the style of the new Cadians, but Cadian Shock Troops & Command Squads can't include a Heavy Weapons team.

If the argument is that GW will still have it as an option without there being a 'generic' box then why do Krieg squads not have the option for a Heavy Weapons team?

 

If infantry squads were going to keep Heavy Weapons teams why would they lose this?

Because that's not how the units are going to work any more. If it doesn't have an option in the box it's not getting one in the unit.
For more evidence, this is exactly how special weapons work now. You can take multiple special weapons, but you can't double dip unless the unit contains another box's worth of infantry in it.
You only have the special weapon options that come in the box.

 

GW have removed options from splitting boxes in other armies like the Tyranid Prime and Ork Smasha Nob. It's very, very obvious that 10th edition is a "Box = Unit" edition. 

 

Edited May 14 by AutumnEffect

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, TheArtilleryman said:

I think of it like the HH kits. You buy the tacticals, and you can buy special or heavy weapons separately. This is how guard infantry has worked for a long time and I think (and definitely hope) it won’t change.

I think they know they’d absolutely destroy the guard if they got rid of the standard infantry squad.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

The only problem with this analogy is that the special and heavy weapons for the Horus Heresy aren't a playable model/unit, but parts for an additional one.
The Heavy Weapons Squad box is a playable unit that you purchase, self contained. If it was some kind of upgrade kit with just weapons and arms ala the already existing Cadian upgrade kit then I'd agree with you.

I mean, it's really telling IMO that they sell a Catachans Heavy Weapons Squad box but the battleline Catachan squad can't include a Heavy Weapons team in it.
The new Heavy Weapons Squad box is in the style of the new Cadians, but Cadian Shock Troops & Command Squads can't include a Heavy Weapons team.

If the argument is that GW will still have it as an option without there being a 'generic' box then why do Krieg squads not have the option for a Heavy Weapons team?

 

If infantry squads were going to keep Heavy Weapons teams why would they lose this?

Because that's not how the units are going to work any more. If it doesn't have an option in the box it's not getting one in the unit.
For more evidence, this is exactly how special weapons work now. You can take multiple special weapons, but you can't double dip unless the unit contains another box's worth of infantry in it.
You only have the special weapon options that come in the box.

 

GW have removed options from splitting boxes in other armies like the Tyranid Prime and Ork Smasha Nob. It's very, very obvious that 10th edition is a "Box = Unit" edition. 

 

…and how is that telling?

at one point you could feasibly build an entirely Catachan army including even tank crew…not really sure what point you’re trying to make. Are you saying the recent limited run Catachan models can’t be used in game because they don’t have their own datasheets? Based on your theory, why would they have even wasted the time and money making them?

 

the infantry squad is regiment agnostic, so it can be made using whatever regimental kits are available.

 

if it’s so evident then why isn’t that what they did at the start of 10th edition?

we’re literally in the middle of 10th edition and we have units that don’t have their names on a box.

 

we have units that don’t have come with all of the options available in the kits.

Edited May 14 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[TheArtilleryman]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

if it’s so evident then why isn’t that what they did at the start of 10th edition?

we’re literally in the middle of 10th edition and we have units that don’t have their names on a box.

While I agree that I don’t think the infantry squad will be squatted, this argument doesn’t necessarily work. There are several units in the 10th edition space marine index, such as attack bikes and assault squads, that are no longer in the codex, so there is precedent for them messing this up. Let’s just hope they don’t. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

While I agree that I don’t think the infantry squad will be squatted, this argument doesn’t necessarily work. There are several units in the 10th edition space marine index, such as attack bikes and assault squads, that are no longer in the codex, so there is precedent for them messing this up. Let’s just hope they don’t. 

I’m not saying it’s a guarantee, but both of those units have also been replaced by direct replacements, that both of those old models/units can easily be proxyed as.

 

so while they might get rid of the ‘infantry squad’ if they do that, they’ll likely replace it with a unit that’s nearly identical but call something else like ‘Armageddon steel legion squad’ or ‘vostryan squad’ that is a 10 or 20 man squad that allows for 1 special weapon and 1 heavy weapon per 10.

in which case it’s essentially the same unit just with a new name, and a new bespoke kit.

 

so here we’re talking about a unit getting squatted, vs directly replaced.

its apples and oranges.

Edited May 14 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[AutumnEffect]

11 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

…and how is that telling?

at one point you could feasibly build an entirely Catachan army including even tank crew…not really sure what point you’re trying to make. Are you saying the recent limited run Catachan models can’t be used in game because they don’t have their own datasheets? Based on your theory, why would they have even wasted the time and money making them?

 

I cannot grasp what you are talking about with this. Your paragraph comes across as word salad.

 

13 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

if it’s so evident then why isn’t that what they did at the start of 10th edition?

 

For the same reason they still had tetras, grot tanks and neurothropes in their indexes but removed them from their codexes I would imagine.

 

14 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

we’re literally in the middle of 10th edition and we have units that don’t have their names on a box.

 

we have units that don’t have come with all of the options available in the kits.

 

What units are these?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Just now, AutumnEffect said:

 

I cannot grasp what you are talking about with this. Your paragraph comes across as word salad.

 

 

For the same reason they still had tetras, grot tanks and neurothropes in their indexes but removed them from their codexes I would imagine.

 

 

What units are these?

We are literally talking about one in a thread all about one of those.

[TheArtilleryman]

3 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

so while they might get rid of the ‘infantry squad’ if they do that, they’ll likely replace it with a unit that’s nearly identical but call something else like ‘Armageddon steel legion squad’ or ‘vostryan squad’ that is a 10 or 20 man squad that allows for 1 special weapon and 1 heavy weapon per 10.

I can see this being a possibility, which would at least ensure viability of everyone’s armies. I still hope they don’t though, because I really don’t like the idea of having to write “Vostroyan Squad” or whatever in my army list when the models blatantly aren’t.

 

Also, as I think someone else said, removing the generic squad option would suck because there are a million worlds in the imperium and not just three. I really think you need a generic infantry squad, just as you have generic factionless infantry in every codex.

Edited May 14 by TheArtilleryman

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 minutes ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

I cannot grasp what you are talking about with this. Your paragraph comes across as word salad.

 

 

For the same reason they still had tetras, grot tanks and neurothropes in their indexes but removed them from their codexes I would imagine.

 

 

What units are these?

Are you dense?

 

they wanted separate bespoke datasheets, that’s why Catachan squads can only take flamers which is why they don’t get heavy weapons despite the existence of a Catachan HWS kit. It has nothing to do with any specific trend.

 

they could’ve squatted the IS when the did the veterans and SWS, but they didn’t and other than waiting for a direct replacement there’s no good explanation why they didn’t.

it can even be argued the new squads are direct slightly better replacements. CSTs being replacements for SWS, and kreig whose KT kit literally calls them veterans.

 

we also don’t technically have a kreig kit for 40k

 

Edited May 14 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[AutumnEffect]

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Are you dense?

 

they wanted separate bespoke datasheets, that’s why Catachan squads can only take flamers which is why they don’t get heavy weapons despite the existence of a Catachan HWS kit. It has nothing to do with any specific trend.

 

 

Your behavior is very much unacceptable.

I have offered no offense to you, merely disagreed with your position. I've presented my position with what I believe to be evidence. Part of the point of a forum is to share opinions like this.
Disagreeing with you is not a reason for you to be rude.

If you believe that the fact that Catachan squads cannot take Heavy Weapon squads is not indicative of a trend then that is your opinion. Your mistake, as indicated by blanketly stating 'It has nothing to with a specific trend' and the reason, most likely, that you take so much offense to me disagreeing with your opinion is that you believe your opinion to be fact.
It is not.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 minute ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

Your behavior is very much unacceptable.

I have offered no offense to you, merely disagreed with your position. I've presented my position with what I believe to be evidence. Part of the point of a forum is to share opinions like this.
Disagreeing with you is not a reason for you to be rude.

If you believe that the fact that Catachan squads cannot take Heavy Weapon squads is not indicative of a trend then that is your opinion. Your mistake, as indicated by blanketly stating 'It has nothing to with a specific trend' and the reason, most likely, that you take so much offense to me disagreeing with your opinion is that you believe your opinion to be fact.
It is not.

The explanation for your previous post is that you’re dense.

 

there was nothing ‘word salad’ about the post you referred to. 

 

please explain then why SWS and vets got squatted by the index but not the IS, if the new trend is an absolute rule rather than simply a trend.

Edited May 14 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[AutumnEffect]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The explanation for your previous post is that you’re dense.

 

there was nothing ‘word salad’ about the post you referred to. 

 

please explain then why SWS and vets got squatted by the index but not the IS, if the new trend is an absolute rule rather than simply a trend.

 

I don't think that you are in a healthy mental state to continue the discussion. I also don't feel as though I owe you any kind of reply, especially as you haven't answered several of my question  such as what units are in currently available that don't have their names on a box and that don't come with all of the options available in the kits. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 minutes ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

I don't think that you are in a healthy mental state to continue the discussion. I also don't feel as though I owe you any kind of reply, especially as you haven't answered several of my question  such as what units are in currently available that don't have their names on a box and that don't come with all of the options available in the kits. 

I literally already answered that question.

 

you are sense.

 

infantry squad. Doesn’t have a kit.

krieg squad doesn’t have a 40K kit.

 

try paying better attention next time.

[AutumnEffect]

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I literally already answered that question.

 

you are sense.

 

infantry squad. Doesn’t have a kit.

krieg squad doesn’t have a 40K kit.

 

try paying better attention next time.

 

I realize that this hobby is one that can bring out passion. I have a lot of passion for it as well. 
I encourage you to re-read my posts at some time in the future, if they haven't been removed when this thread gets locked. I hope that you realize where and how things went off the rails and we can engage in a mutually beneficial and respectful discussion in the future.

[DemonGSides]

15 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I literally already answered that question.

 

you are sense.

 

infantry squad. Doesn’t have a kit.

krieg squad doesn’t have a 40K kit.

 

try paying better attention next time.

 

Brother chill.

 

You're getting out of hand for no reason whatsoever.  Autumn Effect just disagrees, and was looking for some clarification.

 

You've made the thread toxic now though.

 

Also the Veteran Guardsmen kit is a DKoK kit, fwiw. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Almost forgot, Kasrkin don’t have a 40K kit either.

[DemonGSides]

 

Lensoven, I normally really appreciate your contributions but you're off in the stratosphere at this point brother. 

Edited May 14 by DemonGSides

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

46 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Brother chill.

 

You're getting out of hand for no reason whatsoever.  Autumn Effect just disagrees, and was looking for some clarification.

 

You've made the thread toxic now though.

 

Also the Veteran Guardsmen kit is a DKoK kit, fwiw. 

there’s no DKOK kit on warhammer 40k

 

39 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Lensoven, I normally really appreciate your contributions but you're off in the stratosphere at this point brother. 

And?

I used orlocks in 40K doesn’t make them a 40K kit.

 

the point being that there a several units that are currently playable in our faction that do not have 40K kits.

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

there’s no DKOK kit on warhammer 40k

 

And?

I used orlocks in 40K doesn’t make them a 40K kit.

 

the point being that there a several units that are currently playable in our faction that do not have 40K kits.

 

There are several units that are playable in most factions that don't have a codex yet that do not have 40k kits. It's just that DKoK and Kasrkin definitely aren't that for us. For us it would the Infantry Squad (repeated ad nauseum above), and maybe the regimental attaches?

 

You're just wrong about the DKoK and Kasrkin kits, but your opinion that they aren't getting rid of Infantry squads could be true; we just don't know. But based on how things have gone so far in 10th, I dont think it is unreasonable to expect the loss of the Infantry Squad battleline option.  It could easily be replaced with a new kit even called just "Infantry Squad", but I think Autumn (and myself) would both expect that squad to be pretty different than what we have options for now.

 

Your original fight with Autumn was entirely generated in your misunderstanding of what they said. They didn't understand your misunderstanding and then you started freaking out.  Take a step back and chill, these are plastic toy soldiers.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

there’s no DKOK kit on warhammer 40k

 

And?

I used orlocks in 40K doesn’t make them a 40K kit.

 

the point being that there a several units that are currently playable in our faction that do not have 40K kits.

 

The orlock kit doesn't include a description stating it can work as a 40k squad.

 

By your definition, there's 0 demons of chaos kits in 40k because they're all technically AoS kits. Just an absolutely brain dead take. 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

 

There are several units that are playable in most factions that don't have a codex yet that do not have 40k kits. It's just that DKoK and Kasrkin definitely aren't that for us. For us it would the Infantry Squad (repeated ad nauseum above), and maybe the regimental attaches?

 

You're just wrong about the DKoK and Kasrkin kits, but your opinion that they aren't getting rid of Infantry squads could be true; we just don't know. But based on how things have gone so far in 10th, I dont think it is unreasonable to expect the loss of the Infantry Squad battleline option.  It could easily be replaced with a new kit even called just "Infantry Squad", but I think Autumn (and myself) would both expect that squad to be pretty different than what we have options for now.

 

Your original fight with Autumn was entirely generated in your misunderstanding of what they said. They didn't understand your misunderstanding and then you started freaking out.  Take a step back and chill, these are plastic toy soldiers.

 

The orlock kit doesn't include a description stating it can work as a 40k squad.

 

By your definition, there's 0 demons of chaos kits in 40k because they're all technically AoS kits. Just an absolutely brain dead take. 

 

Yet GW has said any of their models are legal for use in their events.

im not really seeing much of a difference.

[DemonGSides]

41 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Yet GW has said any of their models are legal for use in their events.

im not really seeing much of a difference.

 

I'm not even sure you know what you're arguing about any more, to be honest. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

30 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I'm not even sure you know what you're arguing about any more, to be honest. 

Kill team is a separate game.

just because a kit can be used in 40K doesn’t make it a 40K kit.

 

unless GW themselves have made the statement of ‘no kit, no rules’ or something similar, it’s a completely fan made policy.

 

ive been seeing people on here repeat that phrase since I came back to the hobby in 8th edition, yet here we are in 2024 and 10th edition, we have rules for units that either don’t have dedicated kits, or the kits do not come with all the options.

 

the infantry squad might get a new kit, and maybe even a whole new name as I mentioned before, but a 10 man squad including a special and heavy weapon most likely isn’t going anywhere.

 

edit

 

whats the difference between a blurb in a description saying a kit can be used and a general policy/rule stating all GW models are legal for use in their events?

Edited May 14 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[DemonGSides]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Kill team is a separate game.

just because a kit can be used in 40K doesn’t make it a 40K kit.

 

This has no bearing on what was being discussed and is a disingenuous side argument at best, but to answer it cleanly; GW themselves state they are dual purpose kits in every Kill Team sales page (I checked 3, so I guess I could be wrong).  The actual box art has nothing to do with what anyone is talking about when they mention "kit".  By contrast, your example of Orlock kit being used as 40k infantry, there's nothing on the sales page that mentions 40k.

 

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

unless GW themselves have made the statement of ‘no kit, no rules’ or something similar, it’s a completely fan made policy.

 

They have literally 0 incentive to ever say this out loud as it would cause an uproar with 0 benefit.  However, since Chapterhouse, the whole way the game is organize has changed to be aimed at trying to keep a units datasheet to what is available in the kit.  This is obvious by looking at modern datasheets, aka the entire Primaris Space Marine line.

 

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

ive been seeing people on here repeat that phrase since I came back to the hobby in 8th edition, yet here we are in 2024 and 10th edition, we have rules for units that either don’t have dedicated kits, or the kits do not come with all the options.

 

The point being; most of those situations occur in OLDER based kits that went away when their Codex comes up (Attack Bike, Stalker, Scout Bikes), or kits that were released forever ago; the big one you might be able to appreciate is the Death Company kit.  NO ONE expects to be able to continue to field 10x Powerfist, 10x Inferno Pistol going into their update.  Yes, it's because they are getting a new kit, but why would GW change how they act just because they're getting a glow-up in models?  Oh, right, because that's what GW has been doing as time has gone on; as stuff gets updated, it gets changed to be what's available in the box.  Like Sternguard; they used to be able to take any of a litany heavy weapons.  What can they take now, with their fancy pants new kit?  Oh right.  Pyreblaster, or Heavy Bolter.  That's it!

There are definitely some counter examples; I think the Jump Captain w/ Storm Shield+Thunder Hammer is the biggest "Well obviously it's not a blanket rule".  I totally agree, but I also think that type of thing can inform what we can expect from GW going forward with the IG Release (As I stated multiple times); is it likely that Infantry Squad is more like Sternguard, or is it more like a Jump Captain with regards to how GW will deal with them in the future Codex update?  I think it's pretty easy to assume they'll go more the way of the Sternguard with something like any new infantry squad coming out of GW, but I also admitted that I don't REALLY know, just the assumption based on the very obvious facts being given to us by GW.

 

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

the infantry squad might get a new kit, and maybe even a whole new name as I mentioned before, but a 10 man squad including a special and heavy weapon most likely isn’t going anywhere.

 

And some people disagreed, and then you called someone dense for no reason.  The issue here isn't with the disagreement, it's with how you handled it.

 

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

whats the difference between a blurb in a description saying a kit can be used and a general policy/rule stating all GW models are legal for use in their events?

 

When discussing what constitutes an "official 40k kit"?  Usually what the company says.  Y'know, on the sales page.  Check the various Gang pages and link me to where it says it's usable as a 40k unit.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

This has no bearing on what was being discussed and is a disingenuous side argument at best, but to answer it cleanly; GW themselves state they are dual purpose kits in every Kill Team sales page (I checked 3, so I guess I could be wrong).  The actual box art has nothing to do with what anyone is talking about when they mention "kit".  By contrast, your example of Orlock kit being used as 40k infantry, there's nothing on the sales page that mentions 40k.

 

 

They have literally 0 incentive to ever say this out loud as it would cause an uproar with 0 benefit.  However, since Chapterhouse, the whole way the game is organize has changed to be aimed at trying to keep a units datasheet to what is available in the kit.  This is obvious by looking at modern datasheets, aka the entire Primaris Space Marine line.

 

 

The point being; most of those situations occur in OLDER based kits that went away when their Codex comes up (Attack Bike, Stalker, Scout Bikes), or kits that were released forever ago; the big one you might be able to appreciate is the Death Company kit.  NO ONE expects to be able to continue to field 10x Powerfist, 10x Inferno Pistol going into their update.  Yes, it's because they are getting a new kit, but why would GW change how they act just because they're getting a glow-up in models?  Oh, right, because that's what GW has been doing as time has gone on; as stuff gets updated, it gets changed to be what's available in the box.  Like Sternguard; they used to be able to take any of a litany heavy weapons.  What can they take now, with their fancy pants new kit?  Oh right.  Pyreblaster, or Heavy Bolter.  That's it!

There are definitely some counter examples; I think the Jump Captain w/ Storm Shield+Thunder Hammer is the biggest "Well obviously it's not a blanket rule".  I totally agree, but I also think that type of thing can inform what we can expect from GW going forward with the IG Release (As I stated multiple times); is it likely that Infantry Squad is more like Sternguard, or is it more like a Jump Captain with regards to how GW will deal with them in the future Codex update?  I think it's pretty easy to assume they'll go more the way of the Sternguard with something like any new infantry squad coming out of GW, but I also admitted that I don't REALLY know, just the assumption based on the very obvious facts being given to us by GW.

 

 

And some people disagreed, and then you called someone dense for no reason.  The issue here isn't with the disagreement, it's with how you handled it.

 

 

When discussing what constitutes an "official 40k kit"?  Usually what the company says.  Y'know, on the sales page.  Check the various Gang pages and link me to where it says it's usable as a 40k unit.

I called them dense after claiming plain English was ‘word salad’ 

they can disagree all they want. Wrong is wrong.

 

if they have a no kit no rules policy, and they announce they deal with anger and outrage once.

if they don’t and just keep squatting entire armies slowly over the course of multiple years they have to deal with anger and outrage every time they squat a unit for each and every army. It benefits them to get the anger and outrage out of the way quickly if you ask me.

[Brother Tyler]

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