Thoughts on the Codex so far?

[AutumnEffect]

2 hours ago, Brother Nathan said:

not quite the no support unit... they can take awarpsmith though no overlap... unless... you give him an enhancement... as an iron warrior i am tempted to stick them on an objective with one with ironbound eminety (spelling?) for a plus 1 to wound... autocannons going ater tanks on 4+ or other stuff on 2+? ok it dosent help their ap... may haps heavy bolters?

 

The +1 wound is really solid on Lascannon Havocs with Mark of Nurgle to get Sustained and fish for more hits. It'll let you wound  Toughness 11 on a 2+ which is rare this edition.
Against, say, a Leman Russ (T11, 2+ save, 13W) They'll do 10 wounds which is a hell of slap. They'll kill a Predator in a turn. It puts a Predator Annihilator to shame.

[Metzombie]

That enhancment only works for the bearer, not the whole unit.

[Galron]

How do the marks work in the new codex? I thoght I remember reading with the pact thing you get to choose sustained or lethal. Is there further bonuses outside the word bearer detachment for having marks still?

[Brother Nathan]

outside of that detachment no not really, i think only deamon princes can even really take marks...

 

as for that enhancement... dang.. so thats it only useful on... deamon prince/ disco lord? boo. 

one limited to a lord, one dosent affect bearer but reduces cover .  this better one character on objective and one helps one models weapons against tanks and fortifications(but not monsters)

mind im thinking the anti tank one likely best on a termy sorc as all that shooting also benifits even powers... right?

Edited May 17 by Brother Nathan

[LSM]

14 minutes ago, Galron said:

How do the marks work in the new codex? I thoght I remember reading with the pact thing you get to choose sustained or lethal. Is there further bonuses outside the word bearer detachment for having marks still?

 

Marks of Chaos is the detachment rule for Pactbound Zealots. That's the only place they exist, unless the datasheet already incorporates them (ie. Khorne Lord of Skulls has the Khorne keyword), and the only place that they provide any interaction.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

18 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

They are actually pretty comparable to Hellblasters. Slightly better for 5 points more.
5 Hellblasters will do 9.26 wounds to a MEQ but only if they Overcharge and risk the Hazardous.
5 of the Heavy Bolter Havocs will do 10 wounds to a MEQ with only the heavy bolters (not counting the Champion's range weapon, prolly a plasma gun to maybe chip a wound in) and have the Toughness 5.
I can see some potential play here with them in a Rhino. 

 

 

Those aren't really much of an issue with fire support unit.

 

I'm just saying man. Should give em a try with the Tzeentch mark. 

Been using them consistently since 9th.  At best they are a decent "chalkboard" unit but not great in actual games.  

[Prot]

On 5/17/2024 at 1:09 AM, AutumnEffect said:

 

They are actually pretty comparable to Hellblasters. Slightly better for 5 points more.
5 Hellblasters will do 9.26 wounds to a MEQ but only if they Overcharge and risk the Hazardous.
5 of the Heavy Bolter Havocs will do 10 wounds to a MEQ with only the heavy bolters (not counting the Champion's range weapon, prolly a plasma gun to maybe chip a wound in) and have the Toughness 5.
I can see some potential play here with them in a Rhino. 

 

 

Those aren't really much of an issue with fire support unit.

 

I'm just saying man. Should give em a try with the Tzeentch mark. 

 

This is really interesting.

 

As someone who tries to play Iron Warriors as 'fluffy' as possible, I like this play a lot.

 

I'm assuming (since me no math) that the added advantage over the Hellblasters is better crowd control for chaff/Orks/Cultists etc.

 

MoT would have to be on the Rhino as well (I think that is staying a rule?) and this does give the Havoc launcher and 2 Combi weapons some more kick.... I could be wrong, I haven't actually put a Havoc squad in a Rhino probably since 3rd edition. lol

 

 

[AutumnEffect]

37 minutes ago, Prot said:

I'm assuming (since me no math) that the added advantage over the Hellblasters is better crowd control for chaff/Orks/Cultists etc.

 

So running some numbers for 5 Hellblasters (not overcharging because why would you?):
Guardsmen: 5.56 wounds
Ork Boys: 4.44 wounds
Necron Warriors: 3.7 wounds

Terminators (for fun. These ARE overcharged.): 5.93 wounds

Heavy Bolter MoT Havocs:
Guardsmen: 8.33 wounds
Ork Boys: 7.5 wounds
Necron Warriors: 6.67 wounds

Terminators (for fun): 6 wounds

It's all the special rules. The Sustained Hits 1 + Lethal Hits with both proc-ing on a 5+ and ignoring all hit modifiers.
I suspect (enough to not bother running numbers) that the chainguns would be better vs the Orks and Guardsmen but the 2 wounds and better AP with the above special rules makes the Heavy Bolters more general use.

I threw in a terminator profile as well (Toughness 5, 2+ armor and 3 wounds). The Havocs are ever so slightly better than the overcharged Hellblasters even against Termies.

 

 

Edited May 18 by AutumnEffect

[Prot]

Actually I've got a squad of Chaincannon Havocs so I'm heavily leaning towards the autocannon Havocs as an all comers idea for taking on elite infantry.  This frees up my actual anti tank stuff just for harder targets.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Kinda interesting that Nick Nanavati from Art of War won a game on stream with Dread Talons and he seems to think it has at least some merits as a board control army using MSU infantry and Rhinos + lots of Raptors and Warp Talons.

[Prot]

Yes, I did see that one, but it's worth noting he was playing against dark eldar..... I'm not so sure it would have had the same level of success in a true all comers scenario.

 

I've seen a few other batreps as well with that trick and it didn't go nearly as well. I'm just not a fan of any play style that relies on your opponent failing a test.

 

What I got from Nick's game was the strength of some of the units just being very respectable (IE: Warp Talons).

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

On 5/21/2024 at 6:30 AM, Prot said:

Yes, I did see that one, but it's worth noting he was playing against dark eldar..... I'm not so sure it would have had the same level of success in a true all comers scenario.

 

I've seen a few other batreps as well with that trick and it didn't go nearly as well. I'm just not a fan of any play style that relies on your opponent failing a test.

 

What I got from Nick's game was the strength of some of the units just being very respectable (IE: Warp Talons).

True, but they also did rate Dread Talons as #5 out of 8 detachments in terms of strength, ahead of Fellhammer, Deceptors, and Chaos Cult. There are others that are far better, but it seems to have more strength than some other lists that are reliant on battle-shock.

 

 

[Prot]

I could see that. I mean the Dark Angels Unforgiven detachment is an absolute train wreck. So yea, this is better for certain.

 

I just personally don't take too much from youtubers on day 1 with declarations of potency.  I realize they're all trying to attract our attention, our clicks/views etc. I'm just one of those types that has to play them all to come to my own conclusions. ;)

 

For instance I don't think the Fellhammer one is as bad as he things it is... then I see yesterday he played it, and had the lead in the game until the last turn vs. John Lennon''s Ultra/Calgar Gladius. I don't even think Nick's list was that great. It was woefully short on shooting, and that's fine, but it was far from a 'final version' (which he admits himself). And it did really well in my opinion.

 

Just speaking from my own weekly experiences I feel the Chaos codex is far more interesting than loyalist marines. I know these are 'fightin' words'! But it's true to me... the Chaos codex is far more dynamic. So even the basic Detachments have play. The dataslates are interesting and diverse enough that hopefully we find a lot of strength in a lot of the detachments (not just see one or two over and over.) 

 

I'm trying to keep an open mind. It'll be very interesting to see what we come up with. I personally want lists with Abaddon and a zillion Cultists to be gone for good. That's one way I refuse to play the codex. 

Edited May 23 by Prot

[Muskie]

I am definitely a damn the torpedoes full speed ahead kinda tactician. I said Irony Warriors of Nurgle last edition, so I will stick with that plan this edition. There will be Nurgle and Irony aplenty. I don't put much stock in what most of the Internet says I got 40K Tournament trophies older than most of these people.  

[Malakithe]

I really want to see massed Legonaries be viable.

[Brother Nathan]

codex is out tomorrow right? am hoping to potentially pick one up after work ttomorrow. rare that ive been this excited in a codex. im not mad at the points update either.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

9 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I really want to see massed Legonaries be viable.

 

I'll be taking three to max out my Deceptor Infiltration slots for sure.  Reports will follow as time allows.

[Prot]

  

10 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I really want to see massed Legonaries be viable.

 

 

Oh I think Legionaries are extremely viable in pretty much every build. 

And they will be even better to 'spam' when the new cards come out being Battleline.

 

Edited May 24 by Prot

[Cpt.Danjou]

I haven't read that much and have not started to plan which detachement will be my main one, I stopped listening to the privileged ones a long time ago, as they are either repeating what every moaner thinks or they are plainly wrong. I do my thing, in the beginning of the 10th several "influensers" said that Chosen were garbage, my Chosen did excellent on the table. They also said that Cultist was only brought on the table for some cheeky objective stealing. My Tzeentch Cultists always did more than that, killing things worth much more than them. So I will decide what I think about the Codex tomorrow after I have gotten it in my hand. I think I will go with the detachment that brings the most out from Terminators/Legionaries/Chosen with some sprinkles of Havocs and Vehicles, ignoring what ever " fully grown men on the internet screaming like little excited kids" thinks. I know for certain that I will not go raptors/talons as I don't own any of them, and have no intention buying them as they are small and ugly, just like I will not buy any bikes that look like toddlers could ride them.

 

Cpt.Danjou

[Galron]

10 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I really want to see massed Legonaries be viable.

I think the fellhammer siege host will make legionaries be very viable. They will be hard to shift and most of their strats are defensive in nature making them extremely durable over the course of a game. Added to this Pariah Nexus sounding like it is going to make Battleline far more important than it is now. People discount durability for some reason. Yeah offense is great, but look at meganob blocks if you want to see what extreme durability does to games(well aware legionaries even with this detachment wont be quite as tough as meganobs). I see a ton of potential in this detachment and am not seeing why so many youtubers knock it so much. Bring a horde in an vehicle meta, all those lascannons still only wound a marine on a 3+. 

[Prot]

4 hours ago, Galron said:

I think the fellhammer siege host will make legionaries be very viable. They will be hard to shift and most of their strats are defensive in nature making them extremely durable over the course of a game. Added to this Pariah Nexus sounding like it is going to make Battleline far more important than it is now. People discount durability for some reason. Yeah offense is great, but look at meganob blocks if you want to see what extreme durability does to games(well aware legionaries even with this detachment wont be quite as tough as meganobs). I see a ton of potential in this detachment and am not seeing why so many youtubers knock it so much. Bring a horde in an vehicle meta, all those lascannons still only wound a marine on a 3+. 

 

To take what you (and Danjou) are saying a step further....

 

I play against a few different Ork players regularly and yea, those boy blobs with Doc's in them are gross. Mega Nobs too. But where this might have an uphill battle is against your Deathguard, Orks, World Eaters, etc.

 

The reason I say that is the Fellhammer -1 to wound rule, as you know, is ranged only. So all that advantage is gone, and you're at the mercy of armies that hit VERY hard in close combat, and enjoy weight of numbers, and other advantages.

 

This is the part I don't know how to deal with.

 

That said I will definitely be giving this a try. Right now I'm having a blast with the Daemon Engines and Vashtorr, but I'm excited about Fellhammer. I think it's getting a bit of a bad rap. I think the strats are somewhat mediocre, but the overall premise is good, and supports a hard hitting ranged Chaos (IW) army.

[Muskie]

I'm glad others have such low opinions of the Internet as me. I preordered the book. I think I can get it around 10 AM, but I'm going to the gym and will get it when I get it, aka later this afternoon.

 

From what I can tell, especially online, Warhammer 40,000 is mostly complaining, the rest is painting. You can quote me on that. So a long time ago I decided to focus on painting more, you can never have the optimal army list for every single game you play, especially with the rules changing every few months, via electronic update now. But if your army looks cool, it will always look cool.

 

So yeah Fellhammer Siege-host. I will run multiple havoc squads, multiple dreadnoughts, Chaos Spawn, Plague Marines, Plaguebearers, Nurglings, Beasts of Nurgle, because I own and have painted all that. I'm a bit on the fence about terminators. I was running them, I have many painted, but I think more units is better in lots of missions so at 1000 points which we often play, 10 terminators doesn't fit well, even five lead by the Lord starts to eat up a lot of points. So I'm leaning towards buying that new Chaos Lord model and have him lead Chosen. The Jump Lord in the Raptors seems like that will be a lot more painting for me.

 

I only field painted models so I have to be realistic in what I can get on the table this year. Also we will likely Crusade so whatever random units you pick today, is the random units you may be playing with a year from now no matter what the Internet or the Meta suggests you do. I used to try to paint one of everything, but now I just paint so slow.

[Cpt.Danjou]

After have have had my first read, I do I think I like the codex, I will try around with different detachments trying to find my favourite on. As an Iron Warriors player I will try Fellhammer Siegehost my first game, which will probably be against WAAC Death Guard player. You know one of those who will moan that Death Guard is weak if they have not annihilated the opponent in turn two, demanding Disgustingly Resilient, plus everything that Chaos Marines have just so they can say, "I win", after they have deployed their army.  

It is a weird game as we play 1600 points, but with that I can bring three chaos lords, one of them in Terminator armour, three units of legionaries, one is a brick and two are 5 man, a brick of terminators, loaded for bear. guess what autocannons works in close combat with stratgems. I also have my trusty Havocs, one unit full lascannosn, and one full autocannons. For some quick harassers, two units of chosen, and I brought two Rhinos. It is not a very Iron Warriors list if you consider the fluff, but it will be a first trial. 

Why 1600 points? We are going to start a crusade during the summer, and on of our players (Necrons) only have 1200 points at the moment. So I built my list around 1600 points, and still have requisition points for expanding and get rid of battle scars.

 

If you read up on the intraweb, the Fellhammer detachement is pure garbage, and not very Iron Warriors, because it doesn't is not killy enough, and only have few ways to increase damage. A lascannon is still an excellent can opener, sure it can not have the 5+ sustained fire, but most larger stuff really do not like to get shot by them. When in close combat be able to use combi-bolters, flamers and reaper autocannons as pistols. If I am not wrong together with a Lord you can use that stratagem twice, not certain if you can use that stitch more than once per battle, even if you have multiple lords as the rule is "Once per battle round, one unit from your army with this ability can be targeted with a Stratagem for 0CP, even if another unit from your army has already been targeted with that Stratagem this phase.". If the detachement has multiple ways to increase the damage, or had amazing movement tricks or even both, plus increased resilience, the internet would be up in arms, yelling OVERPOWERED, GW SUCKS, and it would be nerfed to nothing in less than a week. Just like the strong "Renegade and raiders" detachement might be. 

We already know that Chaos will have an increase in points, which is bad in my opinion, better to change the detachments and stratagems. If for example cultists or traitor guard get and increase in points because they are good in a, for example "Veterans of the Long War" detachement, the "Chaos cult" detachement will be so bad that no one will play it even in a casual setting. Every detachement is by itself  a free standing army, So increasing or or decreasing points will change the play-style or of how common the detachements will be.

We will see the one or two detachment who will be the competitive, and GW will knee jerk the points around what the few competitive players do, yes they are few compared to the majority of players. It is a very bad and blunt tool to use the competitive circuit as the norm.

Goonhammer, Tabletop tactics, Titans and the other privileged influensers who spit out the "truths" and "we are so cool, that we can stand in a cellar screaming like little two year old toddlers when rolling a dice, even tough we are fully grown men with hipster beards" are not always right. Yes they have been crunching the numbers, yes they know the games, but they are also taking all the fun out of the games as they are basically saying " we are the bestest, and if you don't play like we do, you are a looser:" I have no idea why these guys always have to be rude, and/or demand tips, subscriptions for answering a question, and why people look up to them like they are Gods, Some of them are more or less always say that 40k is a garbage game every time they have a chance, which is echoed here on the forum, especially by fraters who over and over again state that they don't play the game And still week our and week in the negative influensers produce Youtube videos that are hidden behind paywalls, and Tiktok videos that are pointless. 

Find your own style, play as you want, ignore the competitive circuit, and stop feeding the influensers egos, use the models that you think are cool. Rule of cool trumps all. And the most important rule of them all, HAVE FUN, and also let you opponent have fun. It is a game, made so we can forget reality for a couple of hours. I have done my fair share of competitions, and they are not fun if you are not with the in-crowd

I know I am being harsh on the influensers, but we must start to think by ourselves, and not copy pasting what others have said.

 

Soon I will start a thread about my Crusade games which will be a combination of battle reports, fluff, and when I paint up something new it will end up there too. If people want.I might also start up Unit of the week/tactica Chaos at the beginning of July.

 

Cpt.Danjou

[Muskie]

I got the book. I removed the shrink. It is thinner than the last one, which I never ended up using. This time I will use the book and I may even game tomorrow. Many people were gaming today, not sure if any of them were using the book. The Long War continues and I will use the Fellhammer Siege-Host detachment. I for one like that I can use my home brew chapter rather than be another Mortarion and Abanddon having tea in the park with their twelve closest friends "army".

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I very much think starting up Unit of the Week again is a good idea, Cpt. Danjou.

 

Personally, I think places like goonhammer that give an overview are useful, but not more than that.  They can help give an overview of what looks good and what looks less good in a new codex.  That said, I think people have a tendency to take such to far, and argue that if it isn't the best thing out there, it is crap.  Its fine to field units that might not be that great, for any number of reasons - you like their background, you like the paint job you gave them, you think they are a core part of what makes chaos chaos or your army your army, they fill a hole in your list, or maybe you can get better performance out of them than other players.  All those are valid.

 

Personally, I think this forum (specifically the chaos subforum - the news sub-forum can get pretty toxic) is pretty good for that - sure, people are asking about how to get the most out of a given unit, or grumble about the rules, or how to deal with a problem, but it all stays pretty positive and we don't get much of "take x or go home" type attitude.  Plus, its always really inspireing to see each others projects and comment on them.  Just wish traffic was a higher, but that's on us.