Thoughts on the Codex so far?

[Muskie]

I still have not written an army list. I'm a big picture thinker. How to I get the most of my stuff onto the table and I can field more models with this book than with the as yet unreleased Death Guard Codex. I doubt I'll ever do it but I can do:

3 * 10 model Plague Marine squads

6 * 10 model Chaos Legionaries squads

3 * 5 model havoc squads

 

Then I can still do Chosen on top of that. I plan to run a five man Legionaries squad to babysit my home objective. That squad will get two new models painted for it, but I transferred two models out of that squad as Chosen can no longer have special weapons or heavy weapons so I'll make my dream chosen squad, raptor squad and biker squad some day. Not sure if I'll ever make a dream havoc squad. I have two that I need to rebase. I also want to paint other models I own such as a Forgeworld dreadnought and I think I have a defiler, landraider and maybe two predators. I will roll with Fellhammer Siege-host and solve all my problems with shooting. 

 

I wrote something but I'll need more time to digest and plan, but I'm just happy I can field Plague Marines and Nurgle Daemons in the same army list again. I have so many models that haven't been used, some in I swear over twenty years, these two got a glow up today of their vintage 90s paint jobs.

 

 

[abaumann]

Quick question for y'all...how do Rhinos work with the Deceptors and deploying legionaries? Can I deploy legionaries in a rhino the same way I could deploy legionaries with the Deceptors rule?  I'm assuming not.

[TrawlingCleaner]

On 5/27/2024 at 10:12 AM, abaumann said:

Quick question for y'all...how do Rhinos work with the Deceptors and deploying legionaries? Can I deploy legionaries in a rhino the same way I could deploy legionaries with the Deceptors rule?  I'm assuming not.

 

The Infiltrators Special Rule doesn't work on Transports so putting an Infiltrator unit in a Rhino would mean the Rhino deploys normally. If it was the Scout Special Rule, you would be able to use it:

[Galron]

Cpt. Danjou- Just remember on the three Captains, you can only use that ability once per turn no matter how many captains you have AND if you want to use the same strat twice in a turn, you have to pay CP for the first use. I have seen players on the tubes purposely targeting captain/lord units first to force them to use that ability before hitting other units just to bait out the strat.

 

I saw two games being played this weekend, weirdly both were word bearers and both were against grey knights(whose armies were painted in the same scheme but different owners). The one I watched more closely was renegade raiders vs a character heavy GK list with apothecaries everywhere he could stick them. Vashthor(whatever his name is) was a one man killing machine, he did not care what he was fighting. But the rest of the list got to objectives quickly in the early game but was whittled down and surrounded fairly quickly. What Draigo did to a full possessed squad on the charge was obscene and Voldus on a simple followup move with his hammer of ridiculousness wasnt much better. Granted I dont think that player was as experienced as the GK player but I dont think Raiders is going to be the end all be all that people think it is either. It will be very very easy to over-extend. 

[Cpt.Danjou]

50 minutes ago, Galron said:

Cpt. Danjou- Just remember on the three Captains, you can only use that ability once per turn no matter how many captains you have AND if you want to use the same strat twice in a turn, you have to pay CP for the first use. I have seen players on the tubes purposely targeting captain/lord units first to force them to use that ability before hitting other units just to bait out the strat.

 That I do remember, but if I have three lords is it possible to use the ability in next turn again. Example. In turn two a legionaries unit use overwatch, paying it normally, and then my terminators with a terminator lord uses overwatch again paying 0 points. So far everything is ok. Next turn the terminators use overwatch again, paying for it, but is one of my legionaries units with a power amour lord able to use overwatch again, as I am using an ability that says once per battle, and has been used by the terminator lord previous turn?

 

Second question, and I have really tried to find out how it works. If an enemy uses an anti-infantry weapon against a unit that reduces the wound roll by one, "Fellhammer-detachment", does that rule apply to "Ant-weapons"? 

 

Cpt.Danjou

[Metzombie]

No Crits are allways on unmodifed rolles.

[Cpt.Danjou]

10 minutes ago, Metzombie said:

No Crits are allways on unmodifed rolles.

 That was what I thought.

[Cryptix]

On 5/28/2024 at 6:35 AM, Metzombie said:

No Crits are allways on unmodifed rolles.

As I found out when fighting Death Guard this weekend, this can end up making their Detachment significantly less useful against massed poison weapons or combi weapons like Death Guard, Dark Eldar, or some other chaos forces.

[Galron]

On 5/28/2024 at 9:07 AM, Cpt.Danjou said:

 That I do remember, but if I have three lords is it possible to use the ability in next turn again. Example. In turn two a legionaries unit use overwatch, paying it normally, and then my terminators with a terminator lord uses overwatch again paying 0 points. So far everything is ok. Next turn the terminators use overwatch again, paying for it, but is one of my legionaries units with a power amour lord able to use overwatch again, as I am using an ability that says once per battle, and has been used by the terminator lord previous turn?

 

 

Also note, those 0 CP abilities are once per battle round, not once per battle.

[Duo Sonata]

12 hours ago, Galron said:

Also note, those 0 CP abilities are once per battle round, not once per battle.

Also as it doesn't specify the type of stratagems you use it for you'd only be able to use the chaos lords ability on battle tactic stratagems according to the balance dataslate so you wouldn't be able to use it for overwatch.

[Prot]

Well I got my first game in with the Fellhammer Seige force and I wasn't too happy with it. 

 

I definitely made some mistakes; a few things I'd do differently but the overall feeling I had was two fold:

- Firstly, I didn't find it came into play nearly as much as I thought it would. Anti 'X' weaponry certainly hurts, but more than that I just would always be sure to note on each handful of 'to wound' dice, how many 3's were in that pile? I'm guessing here, but I'd say the detachment rule probably saved 10-15 wounds all game. (Pre-saving throw on my part.) And I'm being generous. It certainly wasn't over 15.

 

- Secondly, I strongly believe the detachment rule should be inclusive of close combat. In fact I'd go so far as to say in lore, as well as game mechanics it 100% should be included in melee. The fact is I think it would have been better here. I understand they want to stress a ranged element to the "iron warriors" but their gritty nature did extend to close combat in every fictional instance I've read. More importantly in game play, melee would have increased the detachment value substantially. (This is where we see so many fists, etc.) 

 

I had a situation where a large group of Aggressors did incredible damage. My opponent asks... "Will I need 6's to damage your Temies?" I said no, they're only S4, roll as normal. And of course with "Twin Linked" who cares right? So I lake a solid beating there, even with the 5+ FnP. But in close combat my Termies just got vaporized. The remainder of the entire squads (10 men + Termie Sorc) POOF. All gone.

 

So a major detractor is not only the 'anti-X' weapons, but anything Twin Linked further diminishes the returns on this Detachment. 

 

The plus side, and one of the huge shining moments for me was the using of ranged weapons as pistols. One thing this detachment does like is Havoks. I 'pistol whipped' a squad of CC intercessors with lascannons, and then the AC with Fist finished them off later (Plus his plasma gun). That was really cool, and I think an under appreciated Strat. 

 

Just my two cents but as I write this I feel having re-roll to hits, and "Contemptuous Armour' is far more valuable over all. It's just always going to come into play, and Contempt Armour is going to give you a strong sense of survivability. Let's face it, the "Gladius" is a tested, solid detachment.

 

Secondly, the +1 to wound from the Soulforged Detachment is darn good. I've played it a lot, against a good number of opponents, and for all its negatives, I just love how it plays. 

 

[abaumann]

I feel like forgefiends with the hades autocannons are good on paper in Renegade Raiders. Anyone having luck with those? I’m getting tired of how swingy my forgefiend has been with ectoplasmas. maybe I need new dice…but seems like it could be better with autocannons, especially if I take a termie sorcerer too, and use the Strat for reroll hits/wounds. 

[Relic]

Legionaries, Bikers, Havocs, Warp Talons (worth bolding!), Lords and Master of Executions all look good in the new dex and a core to build around. Of course throw in a unit cultists for the backfield and some rhinos. 

 

As an Iron Warrior player - i'd like it if Fellhammer was good, but the reality is that other Detachments let you play the game on your terms. Fellhammer is reactive and has hoops attached to stratagems.

 

In terms of other Detachments - Pactbound Zealots is still very good, great stratagems and boosts damage. Raiders is the new hotness, extra mobility is always good and you want to be fighting over objectives anyways.

 

The above units fit into either Detachment well, where some others push you more towards certain units. 

 

[Nephaston]

On 6/3/2024 at 12:04 PM, Relic said:

Warp Talons

Really hoping those get an update in the alleged jump kill team season. I can not tolerate the current kit.

[Brother Nathan]

17 hours ago, Nephaston said:

Really hoping those get an update in the alleged jump kill team season. I can not tolerate the current kit.

I keep forgetting the ones i have arnt standard... got them off ebay and they are a mix of mk 3 torsos,possessed and old bezerker legs, loyalist jumppacks and leftovers from the raptor kit... pretty fitting for ironwarriors...

 

Anyone else noticing a fair uprising in ironwarriors out of all the legions atm? Like its not the strongest detachment  but there definately seem to be a lot of people out of the chaos factions still poping up routing for them? Have gw understated which are the most liked legions?

 

Kinda want to do a poll...

[Relic]

Good fluff, legends of 3.5 codex and a nice+easy paint scheme = win!

[Galron]

Iron Warriors have hands down the best single novel written for chaos. Storm of Iron. The rest of their fluff is pretty good, they are tough and like big guns. They have their flaws but they are realistic flaws. They arent psychopaths like the Night Lords, you can kind of understand why Perty sided with the Warmaster and his disdain for all of the rest of the traitors and extreme disdain for his brothers to the point he regretted siding with them. They have giant big guns, lots of tanks, lots of terminators and play horde marine fairly well. Iron Warriors are the DKoK of marines. Also have an easy forgiving paint scheme. Thats why I think they are the most popular.

 

As opposed to: Black legion are the UM of chaos, meh with a boring paint scheme. Emp children are pink and annoying to paint and their rules are so so and what do they really have image-wise besides rock and roll marines from a Van Halen video? Night Lords are edgy with good fluff, great novels, with a difficult paint scheme and a difficult to use detachment this time around and like Raptors which are not great models to paint in number either. World Eaters are very one dimensional and have a boring paint scheme. 1K Sons are cool but are the exact opposite of world eaters and have a moderate paint scheme and highly complicated play style. Plague dudes are fairly over done, easy scheme, but are very not marine looking. Word Bearers, everyone hates word bearers even if they do have an easy but good looking scheme. Alpha Legion are cool, but their scheme is both easy and difficult to pull off to look good. By this I mean its easy to make them go over the line into the too bright category. Fluff is all over the place as it should be. 

[Relic]

Iron Within, Iron without! 

 

On theme - tried out a 2K meat-grinder list of Renegade Raiders (Iron warriors at heart...) with 60 Legionaries in six Rhinos, two min squads of Cultists, 3x min squads of Bikes and the obligatory 10 Warp Talons for recycling. Won by pile-diving objectives against a typical Marine list of 'ooops all vehicles'. 

 

The mix of legionaries re-roll wounds and the +1 AP vs units on objectives, made the list surprisingly punchy. 

 

If you wanted to make it more competitive, you would ditch a squad of cultists and upgrade 25 of the Legionaries to min Plague Marine Squads with all the toys and just have one full squad of Legionaries. 

 

I may well go back to roots and try it in Iron Warrior configuration, as the list does at least tie in to a play-style of can you kill me fast enough. Would lose a lot of punch and mobility though. 

Edited June 7 by Relic

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Renegade Raiders won a 14-man RTT at my LGS this weekend.  The player didn't upload his list to BCP, but from memory it was multiple units of Legionaries in Rhinos and plenty of Warp Talons.  I'll try to get the list from him to post for those interested.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Interesting that warp talons seem to be the new hotness this edition, after being pretty bad in the last few editions.  Datacard wise, they don't seem that special - is it just that they are decently costed for once, or am I missing something?

[Cryptix]

Got to try Soulforged this weekend, took a bit of an unusual list with 3 defilers, 2 maulerfiends, 10 Terminators, 4 obliterators, a warpsmith, and a venomcrawler as part of a crusade against Sisters. Unfortunately, some poor deployment, some badly thought out deep strikes, and a very lucky imperial knight meant all but one of my daemon engines were killed by end of turn 2. The Terminators and obliterators actually manged to do pretty well and killed Celestine, Judith, and their bodyguards, but the Sisters simply had too many bodies for me to deal with with the list. I think that in a real list, I'd definitely take some Autocannon forgefiends and more venomcrawlers to deal with the rise of hordes between sisters, orks, necrons, and genestealer cults in the wild. 

Edited June 10 by Cryptix

[Brother Nathan]

9 hours ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

Interesting that warp talons seem to be the new hotness this edition, after being pretty bad in the last few editions.  Datacard wise, they don't seem that special - is it just that they are decently costed for once, or am I missing something?

Str5 ap2 d1 twinlinked goes well into everything atm but also the improvement in their ability to kill a unit go to reserves so no hit back really helps their survivability. Definately way better than preventing escape...

[Relic]

Warp Talons you can start on table behind terrain. They pounce on a weak unit that hops onto an objective in no mans land. You then go back up into the sky due to the unit ability and recycle them back into play, during opponents turns by Rapid Ingress. You keep doing this and it becomes a very hard unit to interact with, outside of over watch and indirect fire. 

 

Likely will get nerfed at some point. A bit too good. 

[Galron]

6 hours ago, Relic said:

Warp Talons you can start on table behind terrain. They pounce on a weak unit that hops onto an objective in no mans land. You then go back up into the sky due to the unit ability and recycle them back into play, during opponents turns by Rapid Ingress. You keep doing this and it becomes a very hard unit to interact with, outside of over watch and indirect fire. 

 

Likely will get nerfed at some point. A bit too good. 

And thats the reason I am not leaning into them. They likely will get hit hard with the nerf bat in the near future. I use 15 in my Night Lords, but I have always used 15 in my Night Lords since they are such a pain to paint, thus I want them on the table. Its just a matter of 3 squads of 5 or a squad of 10 for actual melee and a squad of 5. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I guess that's why I'm under rating them - I figured that since they can only disappear if they wipe a unit in melee and then you have a less than 50% charge on the other end to be useful, that this was wasn't quite reliably useful enough.  I hadn't considered them in combination with rapid ingress, that does make them quite a bit more useful.

Edited June 10 by Dr_Ruminahui