Another "Valrak has said this" post: Demons may get chopped into the cult marines armies

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

How many people who orks with grots do so because there are so few options for grots. Apply the same logic to kroot, armour marks, vehicle chassis, homeworld origins. It doesn't matter. If you want to hyper focus on one subsection of an army, expect it to be limited.

It’s very different.

id wager most people are not competitive types, focused only on what’s the strongest rules for a faction, but people who choose what they play based of fluff rather than crunch.

 

if you like blood thirsters and blood crushers because of how they look and their background, you’re going to have very little interest in poxwalkers or blue horrors.

 

but when people get into marines it’s very unlikely they’re looking at a specific armor type that draws them in.

same for guard. 
plenty of people started in the days of 4-5 major regiments being available but continue to play in the essentially Cadian only era because they just like guard as a whole.

 

similarly if you like blood thirsters you’ll likely enjoy WE as well.

[DemonGSides]

26 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Is it unfounded? There's strong evidence GW wants to handle daemons this way and it's a bit weird none of the god related books nor daemons have been on a roadmap.

 

In the land of probability of GW splitting out daemons based on their own actions, it looks likely without a rumour source saying it.

 

There's 0 evidence for this in 40K right now. Hence why even valrak, in the video being discussed, said to take it with a grain of salt. Not enough people in this thread are heeding that and have already started doom posting.

 

Is it a possibility?  For sure. I'm even in support of it. But Belakor not appearing in the CSM book should basically shut all consideration of this happening in 10th edition down right from the rip. 

18 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Emperor forbid a little bit of discussion of rumors in the rumor section of a discussion board…

 

Wouldn't it be easier to just call me dense and move on?  

 

(Less flippant; people are treating it like News, not Rumor, which was the point of my post. I know reading comprehension is difficult so I figured it'd be easier to just spell it out)

Edited May 21 by DemonGSides

[ZeroWolf]

2 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

There's 0 evidence for this in 40K right now. Hence why even valrak, in the video being discussed, said to take it with a grain of salt. Not enough people in this thread are heeding that and have already started doom posting.

 

Is it a possibility?  For sure. I'm even in support of it. But Belakor not appearing in the CSM book should basically shut all consideration of this happening in 10th edition down right from the rip. 

 

Wouldn't it be easier to just call me dense and move on?  

While Bel'akor not being in CSM should be the deciding factor, there's absolutely nothing stopping GW from simply moving the god specific demons to the appropriate codex and then giving Bel'akor and friends an index pdf to tide him (and Vashtor!) Over till 11th.

 For 100% conclusive not-happening-till-11th we just need either DG, TS or WE codex (or 10th Chaos Demons codex...whichever one comes first) then there will be no room for speculation*

 

* till 11th edition anyway.

[Jolemai]

[DemonGSides]

Just now, ZeroWolf said:

While Bel'akor not being in CSM should be the deciding factor, there's absolutely nothing stopping GW from simply moving the god specific demons to the appropriate codex and then giving Bel'akor and friends an index pdf to tide him (and Vashtor!) Over till 11th.

 For 100% conclusive not-happening-till-11th we just need either DG, TS or WE codex (or 10th Chaos Demons codex...whichever one comes first) then there will be no room for speculation*

 

* till 11th edition anyway.

 

I just don't foresee that happening mid edition. That's an 11th sized change that would have ramifications for data cards that just doesn't seem to be the style that GW wants to go down. They're VERY reticent to change data cards except for when a new codex is coming out.

 

11th would be the soonest chance for such a large change such as deleting an entire faction.  It's unprecedented.  Hence why I think the other posters in their thread wailing about how much it is the wrong decision are humorous to me.

 

Valrak has some sort of weird grip on a portion of the community where his rumors are just treated as gospel and even he would say that's silly. 

[ZeroWolf]

15 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Valrak has some sort of weird grip on a portion of the community where his rumors are just treated as gospel and even he would say that's silly. 

Probably on account of his track record as of late though because he rarely names sources it becomes harder to attribute which source said lot. From what Valrak has stated in the past, there's a lot of people talking to him.

 

However, from something that was mentioned on stream the other night, he does seem to be holding rumours back till the source has proved themselves.

 

The other factor is people misinterpreting Valraks own theories and positing them as fact.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

And how many people that currently play multiple gods only do so because there are so few options for any specific god available currently?

 

 

This got me curious so I did a quick, rough, count up.

Any - 3 kits

Nurgle - 9 kits, 

Tzeentch - 12 kits

Slaanesh - 11 kits

Khorne - 10 kits

 

Each mono/sub-faction has one infantry kit, seems to have two Greater Daemon options (one named, one not), and at least one cavalry or chariot option (usually more).

 

LoV has 12 kits. GSC has 11 kits if you ignore their extremely large number of characters (21 if you include them). Not saying that all these groups don't need more options, just that breaking Daemons into individual factions, doesn't make them worse off than other low unit count factions.

 

[Mogger351]

45 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I just don't foresee that happening mid edition. That's an 11th sized change that would have ramifications for data cards that just doesn't seem to be the style that GW wants to go down. They're VERY reticent to change data cards except for when a new codex is coming out.

 

11th would be the soonest chance for such a large change such as deleting an entire faction.  It's unprecedented.  Hence why I think the other posters in their thread wailing about how much it is the wrong decision are humorous to me.

 

Valrak has some sort of weird grip on a portion of the community where his rumors are just treated as gospel and even he would say that's silly. 

What data cards would it impact?

 

Call me simple but I don't see why they couldn't just append the daemons index as the release the God books, or just leave the daemons index in place until all 4 armies are out.

 

All daemons will get a new data card anyway with the codex as you note.

[The Scorpion]

31 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

Probably on account of his track record as of late though because he rarely names sources it becomes harder to attribute which source said lot. From what Valrak has stated in the past, there's a lot of people talking to him.

 

However, from something that was mentioned on stream the other night, he does seem to be holding rumours back till the source has proved themselves.

 

The other factor is people misinterpreting Valraks own theories and positing them as fact.

Even if all of Valrak's leaks were legit, there is still no way to completely trust his word because the dude never fails to be carried away by his own hype.

[Marshal Rohr]

Everything he says that comes from certain sources is 100% but he also makes videos about rumors he sees online and random rumors for other people and if you actually watch the videos he says where the rumor comes from before talking about it - like in this video. His track record is the best online. 

[DemonGSides]

38 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

What data cards would it impact?

 

Call me simple but I don't see why they couldn't just append the daemons index as the release the God books, or just leave the daemons index in place until all 4 armies are out.

 

All daemons will get a new data card anyway with the codex as you note.

 

If there's no codex, there's no update. It's circular, unfortunately. 

 

They definitely COULD, but GW is a conservative establishment that likes to do things a certain way, and they have left datacard changes as the last possible way to get what they want done.

 

It would impact the data cards of the entire Daemons index.  Since in this hypothetical they aren't getting a codex, I doubt they would like to do such a big swing that would have knock on effects; the CSM codex just came out and would be missing a significant chunk of datasheets (I can't foresee "Demons go to CSM" and the main csm book can't take any demons, or even just a specification of how new allies would work) that would be required for such a big change to take effect.

 

So yeah, 11th I could see it. 10th, feels like a lot of work from an org that has shown they don't want to do much at all. 

[phandaal]

8 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

Doesn't anyone like chess?

 

Why is everyone so eager that 40k be checkers?

 

I like Checkers. Kind of greasy but the chili fries are pretty good!

[DemonGSides]

5 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

I like Checkers. Kind of greasy but the chili fries are pretty good!

 

You can get their fries in the frozen food aisle near me and I almost always go for them. In an air fryer they are literally indistinguishable from straight from the restaurant!

[Mogger351]

44 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

If there's no codex, there's no update. It's circular, unfortunately. 

 

They definitely COULD, but GW is a conservative establishment that likes to do things a certain way, and they have left datacard changes as the last possible way to get what they want done.

 

It would impact the data cards of the entire Daemons index.  Since in this hypothetical they aren't getting a codex, I doubt they would like to do such a big swing that would have knock on effects; the CSM codex just came out and would be missing a significant chunk of datasheets (I can't foresee "Demons go to CSM" and the main csm book can't take any demons, or even just a specification of how new allies would work) that would be required for such a big change to take effect.

 

So yeah, 11th I could see it. 10th, feels like a lot of work from an org that has shown they don't want to do much at all. 

Khorne daemons go to WE codex with new datasheets

Nurgle daemons go to DG codex with new datasheets

Slaaneshi daemons go to EC codex with new datasheets

Tzeentch daemons go to TS codex with new datasheets

Belakor becomes a free pdf

Chaos marines/knights get an errata to the allies rules

Index: chaos daemons goes away off the site.

 

Why is that so improbable or hard?

Edited May 21 by Mogger351

[DemonGSides]

46 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Khorne daemons go to WE codex with new datasheets

Nurgle daemons go to DG codex with new datasheets

Slaaneshi daemons go to EC codex with new datasheets

Tzeentch daemons go to TS codex with new datasheets

Belakor becomes a free pdf

Chaos marines/knights get an errata to the allies rules

Index: chaos daemons goes away off the site.

 

Why is that so improbable or hard?

Because of GW.

 

Like you're arguing "Editing PDFs isnt hard!" - I agree!

I'm arguing "This is too big of a change for GW to commit, especially considering the CSM codex is already out and there's no indication of this large of a change, such as Belakor being in the book, or different ally rules already being seen."

 

It's a new edition level change. Expecting it or thinking it's likely for 10th is ignoring a lot of precedent. 

Edited May 21 by DemonGSides

[ZeroWolf]

2 hours ago, The Scorpion said:

Even if all of Valrak's leaks were legit, there is still no way to completely trust his word because the dude never fails to be carried away by his own hype.

Valrak doesn't leak anything though, he says "I heard from this source that X is happening" or "I theorise that this could happen" but he never goes: "look at these codecies I got from the printers!" Or "look at these sprues I stole from Nottingham!".

 

He reacts to leaks yes (like when Dante leaked online, and the recent codex AoI at the printers) but that's it, he's never the leaker.

[Special Officer Doofy]

7 hours ago, jaxom said:

 

This got me curious so I did a quick, rough, count up.

Any - 3 kits

Nurgle - 9 kits, 

Tzeentch - 12 kits

Slaanesh - 11 kits

Khorne - 10 kits

 

Each mono/sub-faction has one infantry kit, seems to have two Greater Daemon options (one named, one not), and at least one cavalry or chariot option (usually more).

 

LoV has 12 kits. GSC has 11 kits if you ignore their extremely large number of characters (21 if you include them). Not saying that all these groups don't need more options, just that breaking Daemons into individual factions, doesn't make them worse off than other low unit count factions.

 

 

Yes it does make them more worse off than every faction at that point. You're not counting characters for GSC so let's not count characters (or worthless terrain) for Nurgle. Nurgle then has 4 dedicated units/kits. What faction has only 4 units/kits without characters? Your post betrays you haha.

 

Also, Nurgle has 2 infantry* kits. Nurglings and Plaguebearers.

 

It's really fun to theorize and this is something I've always wanted, but let's not get worked up over a rumor with zero evidence.

 

* my mind went to battleline

not infantry. 

Edited May 22 by Special Officer Doofy

[Noserenda]

Belakor not being in the book proves nothing, he wasnt in the book when he got remade either, they just put him in a supplement +PDF same as they always do when they update things or release a new model off codex.

Now if we had had a cult codex without daemons thats a bit more convincing but they are all in the fog right now right? 

[Indy Techwisp]

3 hours ago, jaxom said:

This got me curious so I did a quick, rough, count up.

Any - 3 kits

Nurgle - 9 kits, 

Tzeentch - 12 kits

Slaanesh - 11 kits

Khorne - 10 kits

 

Each mono/sub-faction has one infantry kit, seems to have two Greater Daemon options (one named, one not), and at least one cavalry or chariot option (usually more).

 

Is this counting the Daemons who've already been discontinued ahead of AoS 4th or not?

'cause Tzeentch lost the most out of all 4 with that cut.

Edited May 21 by Indy Techwisp

[jaxom]

Cheez-its, I said it was a rough count.

 

I consider nurglings a swarm unit, not infantry.

 

The GSC line near literally doubles including characters. Most of the daemon factions have three. It's a closer percentage match than one would expect; roughly 50% versus 25%. Doesn't really change the thesis; each daemon monofaction could be on its own in the same anemic way LoV and GSC are.

 

I did not include two of the old Tzeentch characters I remembered being in the "models no longer produced" article; I think it was the Blue Scribes and one other?

 

 

[Special Officer Doofy]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

The GSC line near literally doubles including characters. Most of the daemon factions have three. It's a closer percentage match than one would expect; roughly 50% versus 25%. Doesn't really change the thesis; each daemon monofaction could be on its own in the same anemic way LoV and GSC are.

 

Uhhh I just showed you how you're wrong. Nurgle over doubles when you add characters as well... Nurgle only has 4 non characters, 5 if you count terrain (I don't) and 7 characters (6 if epidemius retires). You said GSC has 11 non character kits, that's as many as Nurgle has total with their many characters...

 

I don't get your thesis. Your own example is working against you.

 

Going off the index for the other 3 and only including dedicated units for that god

 

Khorne has 7 characters and only 5 units including the terrain.

 

Slaanesh has 8 characters and 6 non character units.

 

Tzeentch has 8 characters currently in the index and 5 non character units.

 

Even if they each retire a few characters they all have more characters than units. I don't get your point.

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

There's 0 evidence for this in 40K right now. Hence why even valrak, in the video being discussed, said to take it with a grain of salt. Not enough people in this thread are heeding that and have already started doom posting.

 

Is it a possibility?  For sure. I'm even in support of it. But Belakor not appearing in the CSM book should basically shut all consideration of this happening in 10th edition down right from the rip. 

 

Wouldn't it be easier to just call me dense and move on?  

 

(Less flippant; people are treating it like News, not Rumor, which was the point of my post. I know reading comprehension is difficult so I figured it'd be easier to just spell it out)

Valrak says that on literally every rumor videos.

even the ones that turn out 100% true, so that statement has no relevance to if there’s evidence to support it or not.

[Urauloth]

Always liked Daemonkin. I hope there's something to this.

 

I also wouldn't be surprised if GW wanted to split AoS and 40k daemons up more, since they're really invested in "one model one system" right now. I doubt we'll see a complete separation of model lines, but I'd expect more units exclusive to their respective settings in the future.

[sitnam]

12 minutes ago, Urauloth said:

but I'd expect more units exclusive to their respective settings in the future.

Seems reasonable given Vashtorr is 40k whereas AoS has twin Keepers of Secrets that aren't in 40k

[Garrac]

I only will add that, please, if this happens, dont go and say in a few years "No, but this wasn't a big deal anyway because no one plays Chaos Demons soup"

 

I do know for a fact that people do indeed play chaos demons soup, like chaos demons soup, play chaos demons soup at tournaments, and have in fact been collecting chaos demons soup since 2008, before some people on the warhammer fandom was even born.